Avanti GSW diverts March 2023

[Peter0124]

Was looking ahead in RTT and found this for March this year:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023

Train information at Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Services between Carlisle and Glasgow being diverted via GSW due to the Carstairs works that week. After 19th March they run via Midcalder (and direct to London).

Have any other Avanti/Virgin WC services ever operated with Class 2 headcodes or is this a first? Niche I know

Also what stock is running these? Will they be Pendolino drags or Voyagers?

This service also happens to have a set down only stop at Kilmarnock:

Realtime Trains | 1S36 0605 Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S36 0605 departure from Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is that Kilmarnock's first direct service from south of Carlisle?

 

[30907]

Was looking ahead in RTT and found this for March this year:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023

Train information at Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Also what stock is running these? Will they be Pendolino drags or Voyagers?

Almost certainly Voyagers, as they are running as a shuttle service (the one from Birmingham is shown as Voyager throughout and doesn't have time to attach a loco at CAR).

This service also happens to have a set down only stop at Kilmarnock:

Realtime Trains | 1S36 0605 Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S36 0605 departure from Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is that Kilmarnock's first direct service from south of Carlisle?

There were (at least) daily through services and a sleeper until a few years after the main line was electrified; at least one was a Mk3 set IIRC. There were also London to Stranraer trains via Kilmarnock for a number of years. They were all withdrawn as an economy measure sometime in the early 80s from memory.

I don't know if there have been any stops on diverted services since.

 

[The Planner]

100% Voyagers, no drags.

 

[duncanp]

Was looking ahead in RTT and found this for March this year:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023

Train information at Glasgow Central between 0200 and 0159 on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Services between Carlisle and Glasgow being diverted via GSW due to the Carstairs works that week. After 19th March they run via Midcalder (and direct to London).

Have any other Avanti/Virgin WC services ever operated with Class 2 headcodes or is this a first? Niche I know

Also what stock is running these? Will they be Pendolino drags or Voyagers?

This service also happens to have a set down only stop at Kilmarnock:

Realtime Trains | 1S36 0605 Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S36 0605 departure from Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is that Kilmarnock's first direct service from south of Carlisle?

But in the early 1980s Kilmarnock only had about 4 or 5 trains per day to Glasgow, one of which was a through service to and from Euston.

I also recall a sleeper train from Stranraer to London that went via Ayr and Kilmarnock.

But it is the first direct service from Kilmarnock to London for a while.

 

[route101]

Are the services via Mid Calder Pendolinos?

 

[Peter0124]

Are the services via Mid Calder Pendolinos?

Yes, will have to leave Glasgow in reverse formation otherwise it'll mess up the fleet down south due to the reversal required.

 

[185143]

Almost certainly Voyagers, as they are running as a shuttle service (the one from Birmingham is shown as Voyager throughout and doesn't have time to attach a loco at CAR).

There were (at least) daily through services and a sleeper until a few years after the main line was electrified; at least one was a Mk3 set IIRC. There were also London to Stranraer trains via Kilmarnock for a number of years. They were all withdrawn as an economy measure sometime in the early 80s from memory.

I don't know if there have been any stops on diverted services since.

Plenty (hourly IIRC, at the expense of one of the ScotRail stoppers) when Lamington viaduct collapsed a few years ago.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What is happening at carstairs in march? The divert might well be worth having a little trip on along with the ones which will reverse at at mid Calder.

 

[The Planner]

What is happening at carstairs in march? The divert might well be worth having a little trip on along with the ones which will reverse at at mid Calder.

Massive blockade to rebuild the layout.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Will this be and end to trains from Edinburgh having to slow down to about 5 mph through the area? If so brilliant

 

[Watershed]

Will this be and end to trains from Edinburgh having to slow down to about 5 mph through the area? If so brilliant

Yes, everything will get a lot faster. 40mph with flashing yellows between Carlisle/Glasgow and Edinburgh IIRC, and 120mph or thereabouts between Carlisle and Glasgow - plus the longstanding TSRs will go.

The only real downside is that Down trains from Carlisle calling at Carstairs will now conflict with Up trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Carlisle, due to the changes to the layout. But there's only two of these a day (the 04:57/05:00 from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow plus the Lowlander Sleeper), so it's a non-issue in the scheme of things.

It's a shame that Carlisle <-> Edinburgh will remain a single lead junction, but the speed improvements will nevertheless make a significant difference here.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But in the early 1980s Kilmarnock only had about 4 or 5 trains per day to Glasgow, one of which was a through service to and from Euston.

I also recall a sleeper train from Stranraer to London that went via Ayr and Kilmarnock.

But it is the first direct service from Kilmarnock to London for a while.

ISTR that immediately after electrification of, I suppose, Weaver to Motherwell, one train per day from Euston went via the GSW. I think it was the 12.00 ex Euston. There was a return working, but I can't remember when that left Glasgow Central.

Are the services via Mid Calder Pendolinos?

Why does anything have to reverse? Could you explain please (my knowledge of the layouts in Scotland is limited - but as I know you can go via the GSW without any reversal). You certainly used to be able to do so.

 

[Watershed]

Why does anything have to reverse? Could you explain please (my knowledge of the layouts in Scotland is limited - but as I know you can go via the GSW without any reversal). You certainly used to be able to do so.

The Midcalder route runs east-west between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Shotts. It connects with the Carstairs-Edinburgh line at Midcalder Jn near Kirknewton station, in the direction facing Edinburgh. Therefore trains from London to Glasgow have to reverse at Midcalder Jn if they are to use the Midcalder rotue.

The G&SW route is also a possibility but it is of course unelectrified, whilst the Midcalder route was electrified in 2019. Avanti don't have sufficient spare 221s to run double sets (you couldn't feasibly run single sets) between Glasgow and London more than a handful of times a day, and the practice of using 57s to haul Pendolinos finished at least a decade ago.

Whilst reversing at Midcalder Jn uses a lot of valuable capacity (Avanti's agreement with ASLEF requires 15 minutes for reversing a Pendolino!), the GSW route also isn't exactly flush with capacity due to the single line sections north of Kilmarnock, as well as the long AB sections (e.g. Annan to Dumfries) and amount of freight which is being diverted that way for the duration of the Carstairs blockade.

The journey time is broadly the same for both diversionary routes so Avanti have decided to run services via Midcalder Jn for most of the duration of the Carstairs work (where trains can still run between Carlisle and Edinburgh), with a handful of through and shuttle 221s running via the G&SW. They have planned a roughly 2 hourly 221 G&SW shuttle for periods where Carstairs is completely blocked.

 

[DanNCL]

Why does anything have to reverse? Could you explain please (my knowledge of the layouts in Scotland is limited - but as I know you can go via the GSW without any reversal). You certainly used to be able to do so.

The route is Glasgow Central - Mid Calder via Shotts, then reversal at Mid Calder to get to Carstairs. Running via Shotts adds the need for a reversal, but removes the need to drag 390s as the whole route is wired.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Midcalder route runs east-west between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Shotts. It connects with the Carstairs-Edinburgh line at Midcalder Jn near Kirknewton station, in the direction facing Edinburgh. Therefore trains from London to Glasgow have to reverse at Midcalder Jn if they are to use the Midcalder rotue.

The G&SW route is also a possibility but it is of course unelectrified, whilst the Midcalder route was electrified in 2019. Avanti don't have sufficient spare 221s to run double sets (you couldn't feasibly run single sets) between Glasgow and London more than a handful of times a day, and the practice of using 57s to haul Pendolinos finished at least a decade ago.

Whilst reversing at Midcalder Jn uses a lot of valuable capacity (Avanti's agreement with ASLEF requires 15 minutes for reversing a Pendolino!), the GSW route also isn't exactly flush with capacity due to the single line sections north of Kilmarnock, as well as the long AB sections (e.g. Annan to Dumfries) and amount of freight which is being diverted that way for the duration of the Carstairs blockade.

The journey time is broadly the same for both diversionary routes so Avanti have decided to run services via Midcalder Jn for most of the duration of the Carstairs work (where trains can still run between Carlisle and Edinburgh), with a handful of through and shuttle 221s running via the G&SW. They have planned a roughly 2 hourly 221 G&SW shuttle for periods where Carstairs is completely blocked.

Thanks for explanation. Hadn't realised the Shotts route was called Midcalder. Makes sense. And to @DanNCL

 

[jfollows]

ISTR that immediately after electrification of, I suppose, Weaver to Motherwell, one train per day from Euston went via the GSW. I think it was the 12.00 ex Euston. There was a return working, but I can't remember when that left Glasgow Central.

It was 1S86, 15:45 Euston-Glasgow, overtaken by 1S83 16:45 Euston-Glasgow. The Glasgow trains were xx:45 departures from London in the 1974 timetable.
Up it was 1M25 07:15 Glasgow-Euston; 1M18 07:10 Glasgow-Euston arrived in London more than 90 minutes sooner.

 

[Scotrail88]

Yes, everything will get a lot faster. 40mph with flashing yellows between Carlisle/Glasgow and Edinburgh IIRC, and 120mph or thereabouts between Carlisle and Glasgow - plus the longstanding TSRs will go.

The only real downside is that Down trains from Carlisle calling at Carstairs will now conflict with Up trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Carlisle, due to the changes to the layout. But there's only two of these a day (the 04:57/05:00 from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow plus the Lowlander Sleeper), so it's a non-issue in the scheme of things.

It's a shame that Carlisle <-> Edinburgh will remain a single lead junction, but the speed improvements will nevertheless make a significant difference here.

Possibly too early but will there be any timetable alterations to accommodate the changes?

Probably be more restricted with Haymarket and Motherwell constraints. Be a waste if just converted into allowances.

 

[The Planner]

Possibly too early but will there be any timetable alterations to accommodate the changes?

Probably be more restricted with Haymarket and Motherwell constraints. Be a waste if just converted into allowances.

Any changes won't be until the May timetable.

 

[Watershed]

Possibly too early but will there be any timetable alterations to accommodate the changes?

Probably be more restricted with Haymarket and Motherwell constraints. Be a waste if just converted into allowances.

I don't think there's any plan to recast things substantially, so timings will remain broadly unchanged south of Carstairs. But it's possible you might see slightly later departures/earlier arrivals at Glasgow/Edinburgh, or more calls at Motherwell with the same timings. In the interim, it will certainly add some much-needed slack to compensate for the frequent TSRs and ESRs.

 

[Peter0124]

If the TSRs at Carstairs get sorted and it's quicker through there then maybe they can have a second attempt at getting the fastest Euston-Glasgow timings.

 

[The Planner]

If the TSRs at Carstairs get sorted and it's quicker through there then maybe they can have a second attempt at getting the fastest Euston-Glasgow timings.

I doubt that is high on Avantis priority list to be honest.

 

[Huntergreed]

Are there any diagrams of the new layout available? I'm very familiar with the current layout and interested to see what is changing!

 

[43066]

Whilst reversing at Midcalder Jn uses a lot of valuable capacity (Avanti's agreement with ASLEF requires 15 minutes for reversing a Pendolino!),

Doesn’t seem unreasonable to me for a 9 or 11 car train, up to 265m long. Are you suggesting there’s something wrong with the agreement?

In the interim, it will certainly add some much-needed slack to compensate for the frequent TSRs and ESRs.

Or in other words uses a lot of valuable capacity to add some much-needed slack to ensure a robust timetable. I expect that’s what the reversal agreement does, too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The extra few minutes of padding here or there will make a difference, especially northbound where if you're you're late of Preston and and do more than one stop through Cumbria and the lakes in between Lancaster and Carlisle or or are calling at any one of Lockerbie carstairs or Motherwell getting back time is not necessarily the easiest thing to do to either Edinburgh or Glasgow. That being said on other occasions I'm sure many of us regulars have sat between slateford and Haymarket waiting for a platform to become available or crawled through Motherwell and other stations at 30 odd miles an hour following a line of of stuff that was meant to be behind you
Being able to increase dwell times at at all of the Cumbrian stations would be an advantage as well, particularly in high tourist season when they all do extremely good business

 

[jfollows]

Are there any diagrams of the new layout available? I'm very familiar with the current layout and interested to see what is changing!

Verbal description at #49 ; note subsequent correction.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was 1S86, 15:45 Euston-Glasgow, overtaken by 1S83 16:45 Euston-Glasgow. The Glasgow trains were xx:45 departures from London in the 1974 timetable.
Up it was 1M25 07:15 Glasgow-Euston; 1M18 07:10 Glasgow-Euston arrived in London more than 90 minutes sooner.

View attachment 127147

Wow! Thank you for that. (And apologies for the very warped memory of the train involved.)

Lovely to see the G&SW inserted into Table 65! The 2 hr 15 minute timings for Carlisle - Glasgow Cen seem rather slow - what was this diagrammed for back then, a Class 40? A Class 47 or 50 would surely do better than that? Or was the line speed dropped on the G&SW (to 70 mph?) once electrification was finished?

 

[jfollows]

Wow! Thank you for that. (And apologies for the very warped memory of the train involved.)

Lovely to see the G&SW inserted into Table 65! The 2 hr 15 minute timings for Carlisle - Glasgow Cen seem rather slow - what was this diagrammed for back then, a Class 40? A Class 47 or 50 would surely do better than that? Or was the line speed dropped on the G&SW (to 70 mph?) once electrification was finished?

ETH 47 would be my guess. The 50s had been transferred to the Western region and the 40s didn't have ETH I don't think, so wouldn't have been diagrammed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

ETH 47 would be my guess. The 50s had been transferred to the Western region and the 40s didn't have ETH I don't think, so wouldn't have been diagrammed.

Yes, indeed, you are more on the ball than me. This working would surely have been a MK2 air-con set, and only 47/4s would have been available at that stage of the game. Still seems a bit laggardly though.

Hmm, perhaps not. ISTR the best timings with 2 x Class 50s was 1 hr 50 min. That was probably non-stop. So 2 hr 15 with a single 47 and two stops is probably about right.
Does anyone know the history of the line speed on the G&SW at this time?

 

[jfollows]

Here's the working timetable for 1S86 for the 14/5/79 to 11/5/80 timetable.
Four intermediate stops (two more than in 1974).
Four minutes of additional recovery time.

 

[AJP62]

ETH 47 would be my guess. The 50s had been transferred to the Western region and the 40s didn't have ETH I don't think, so wouldn't have been diagrammed.

For a spell after electrification the GSW Euston trains were 50 hauled. A few 50s were retained on WCML for trips such as this plus Barrow/Blackpool/Manchester/Liverpool runs from Preston as I don't think there were enough 47/4s for the ETH stock trains. 40s could substitute on the non air con stock like mk2c in summer.

The 50s eventually moved on once sufficient 47/4s were available, perhaps released by HSTs on the Western region.