Avanti West Coast Class 221 to CrossCountry

[James Kevill]

I was just having a thought that the 20 remaining Class 221 Super Voyagers could be transferred to CrossCountry franchise after they are replaced by 13 Class 805 Agility Trains 300 in 5 carriages and 10 Class 807 Agility Trains 300 in 7 carriages. And CrossCountry will be able to form a uniform fleet for all of these Class 220 Voyagers and Class 221 Super Voyagers fleets and they might replace the 12 High Speed Trains sets (12 Class 43 and 40 Mark 3 Coaches).

 

[JonathanH]

There are lots of threads with exhaustive discussion about this. The DfT have the option if passenger numbers recover as no one else wants them. The DfT can choose not to take it up if passenger numbers do not recover.

That just about sums up the current situation.

 

[Energy]

Agility Trains

Agility are the company for the 800s and 801s, 805s and 807s are AT300s from Hitachi (like the 800s and 801s) but are owned by Rock Rail.

And CrossCountry will be able to form a uniform fleet for all of these Class 220 Voyagers and Class 221 Super Voyagers fleets and they might replace the 12 High Speed Trains sets (12 Class 43 and 40 Mark 3 Coaches).

Replacing HSTs seems fairly likely to me. There is not enough to replace the Turbostars. 222s are also coming off lease but I don't think they will be needed.

 

[Ianno87]

Replace HSTs and the rest to tactically strengthen existing 4/5 car formations. Assuming CrossCountry ever returns to it's 2tph "Princess" pattern.

 

[43096]

I was just having a thought that the 20 remaining Class 221 Super Voyagers could be transferred to CrossCountry franchise after they are replaced by 13 Class 805 Agility Trains 300 in 5 carriages and 10 Class 807 Agility Trains 300 in 7 carriages. And CrossCountry will be able to form a uniform fleet for all of these Class 220 Voyagers and Class 221 Super Voyagers fleets and they might replace the 12 High Speed Trains sets (12 Class 43 and 40 Mark 3 Coaches).

XC don't have 12 HST sets. It's 5 sets.

 

[irish_rail]

I was just having a thought that the 20 remaining Class 221 Super Voyagers could be transferred to CrossCountry franchise after they are replaced by 13 Class 805 Agility Trains 300 in 5 carriages and 10 Class 807 Agility Trains 300 in 7 carriages. And CrossCountry will be able to form a uniform fleet for all of these Class 220 Voyagers and Class 221 Super Voyagers fleets and they might replace the 12 High Speed Trains sets (12 Class 43 and 40 Mark 3 Coaches).

So Avanti get improved trains and crosscountry passengers have to suffer losing HSTs. Seems a bit unfair, although i am in absolutely no doubt this will happen.

 

[Ianno87]

So Avanti get improved trains and crosscountry passengers have to suffer losing HSTs. Seems a bit unfair, although i am in absolutely no doubt this will happen.

If you mean that CrossCountry passengers lose old, less accessible trains in favour of newer, better performing ones, absolutely.

Only enthusiasts care about HSTs, nobody else.

 

[Energy]

So Avanti get improved trains and crosscountry passengers have to suffer losing HSTs. Seems a bit unfair, although i am in absolutely no doubt this will happen.

Voyagers are fine, they just need a refurbishment. I can see doubled up voyagers replacing the HSTs, the HSTs are 40 years old and will need replacing, ex-Avanti voyagers make the most sense right now and they are more accessible and accelerate faster.

 

[greatvoyager]

Voyagers are fine, they just need a refurbishment. I can see doubled up voyagers replacing the HSTs.

They could do with something like that, I have to admit now that they are looking tired.

 

[rjames87]

It’s a shame it wouldn’t be as simple as using 220/221/222 on the 170 routes, as that would free up much needed 170 stock for elsewhere on the UK network. I understand there are numerous logistical and operational reasons why that would be highly unlikely to happen. It would also defeat the point of work in progress to strengthen the 170s to 3 cars where many were 3 cars before.

 

[James Kevill]

XC don't have 12 HST sets. It's 5 sets.

Oh?! I didn't realised this.

 

[takno]

Voyagers are fine, they just need a refurbishment. I can see doubled up voyagers replacing the HSTs, the HSTs are 40 years old and will need replacing, ex-Avanti voyagers make the most sense right now and they are more accessible and accelerate faster.

The Voyagers were terrible when they were new, so I'm not clear on how refurbishment will help. Having some of the shakiest engines on the railway under you seat for a 7 hour journey is a woeful experience compared to an HST. As an enthusiast (which I'm not really) I'm wholly indifferent, but as somebody with a perfectly normal aversion to feeling like I'm being shaken to pieces for hours on end I care a lot.

And what's more accessible about them? The HSTs have all been in for their mods

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Voyagers were terrible when they were new, so I'm not clear on how refurbishment will help.

I wouldn't tend to agree. They have a fair bit going against them - smelly bogs, non-functional reservation system, inhuman seat pitch, inefficient layout, tiny luggage racks - but they also have good points - massive, panoramic windows, good ride - and if you sit in the all-tables coach you get to see what they could have been like.

Having some of the shakiest engines on the railway under you seat for a 7 hour journey is a woeful experience compared to an HST. As an enthusiast (which I'm not really) I'm wholly indifferent, but as somebody with a perfectly normal aversion to feeling like I'm being shaken to pieces for hours on end I care a lot.

I genuinely don't notice Voyager engines at speed, it just feels like rumbly track noise to me. If you want to be shaken to bits try a 150 or 156, and if you want your ears to be whined out try a 158.

 

[Ianno87]

The Voyagers were terrible when they were new, so I'm not clear on how refurbishment will help. Having some of the shakiest engines on the railway under you seat for a 7 hour journey is a woeful experience compared to an HST. As an enthusiast (which I'm not really) I'm wholly indifferent, but as somebody with a perfectly normal aversion to feeling like I'm being shaken to pieces for hours on end I care a lot.

Or a draughty, hissing, squeaking Mk3?

And what's more accessible about them? The HSTs have all been in for their mods

Always better to be designed for accessibility as new, rather than retro fitted compromises.

 

[Purple Orange]

What percentage of services would become double length trains if the 20 additional Voyagers were transferred?

 

[JonathanH]

What percentage of services would become double length trains if the 20 additional Voyagers were transferred?

Something like 53 diagrams in the normal timetable for 38 4-car units and 20 5-car units - therefore arguably with 20 extra 5-car units I would imagine that all of the 5-car diagrams can become 8-car and all of the 4-car diagrams can go to 5-car, subject of course to stabling requirements, servicing capacity, staffing and platform lengths, which are just some of the 'hidden' costs beyond the direct costs of the extra units.

 

[Purple Orange]

Something like 53 diagrams in the normal timetable for 38 4-car units and 20 5-car units - therefore arguably with 20 extra 5-car units I would imagine that all of the 5-car diagrams can become 8-car and all of the 4-car diagrams can go to 5-car, subject of course to stabling requirements, servicing capacity, staffing and platform lengths, which are just some of the 'hidden' costs beyond the direct costs of the extra units.

Ok, so that would be 19 x 8-car trains plus 40 x 5-car trains, totalling a fleet of 59 to service 53 diagrams. Assuming 3 x 5-car trains would not be utilised at any given time, 36% of all trains would be 8-car. Better, but not quite good enough I suppose. XC need the EMR fleet.

I wonder, if one of the north east services was terminated at York, to assist with the additional LNER service, how many diagrams could be removed and therefore enabling a greater level of doubling-up?

 

[greatvoyager]

Ok, so that would be 19 x 8-car trains plus 40 x 5-car trains, totalling a fleet of 59 to service 53 diagrams. Assuming 3 x 5-car trains would not be utilised at any given time, 36% of all trains would be 8-car. Better, but not quite good enough I suppose. XC need the EMR fleet.

I wonder, if one of the north east services was terminated at York, to assist with the additional LNER service, how many diagrams could be removed and therefore enabling a greater level of doubling-up?

We’ll have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The Voyagers were terrible when they were new, so I'm not clear on how refurbishment will help. Having some of the shakiest engines on the railway under you seat for a 7 hour journey is a woeful experience compared to an HST. As an enthusiast (which I'm not really) I'm wholly indifferent, but as somebody with a perfectly normal aversion to feeling like I'm being shaken to pieces for hours on end I care a lot.

And what's more accessible about them? The HSTs have all been in for their mods

Regarding the XC HST's - Yep, and I was told by XC basically that they've had a £20m investment so that they could continue in service in the years to come.

They look perfectly fine to me. Old yes, scrappable - no.

I think if the Avanti Voyagers go to XC then most Voyagers should be 10-carred, assuming the timetable stays the same.

However, time will tell.

 

[Purple Orange]

The Voyagers will have to last until HS2 & transpennine electrification comes along, therefore we need to live with them for the next 15-20 years. The traditional SW-NE route will shift from Sheffield to Manchester and start from Birmingham, meaning that the XC network is rationalised but each service is focused on the three main conurbations outside of London.

In the meantime though, sending the Avanti Voyagers to XC gives us all a service that is more in-line with how the future of intercity Rail services will unfold. It’s going back in time in a sense to the days before Voyagers, but it’s the end of the cycle of change the railway has seen from a period of contraction through to a period of rationalisation and back to growth.

 

[JonathanH]

I think if the Avanti Voyagers go to XC then most Voyagers should be 10-carred, assuming the timetable stays the same.

8-car operation is more probable given there are 40 4-car units - I think 10-car would start to cause difficulties with platform lengths - XC don't run two 5 car units together at the moment for obvious reasons.

For any 10-car operation to occur, I think you would need the 222s in the Cross Country fleet as well, obviously running on separate diagrams.

 

[Philip]

I think once passenger numbers are back up to reasonable levels and in the near future, all of the 4-coach CC units should made up to 5 by taking a coach out of the Avanti Super Voyagers. I don't know the numbers and whether there are enough Super Voyagers to increase all CC 4-car to 5, but as many as possible should be done; CC need the 5th coach more than Avanti do on their single unit Voyager diagrams. I think only the Chester and Shrewsbury diagrams had a single unit before the pandemic; high peak Chester and the London to Scotland via Birmingham had double Voyagers - 8 coaches would be enough for these post pandemic.

 

[JonathanH]

I think once passenger numbers are back up to reasonable levels and in the near future, all of the 4-coach CC units should made up to 5 by taking a coach out of the Avanti Super Voyagers. I don't know the numbers and whether there are enough Super Voyagers to increase all CC 4-car to 5, but as many as possible should be done; CC need the 5th coach more than Avanti do on their single unit Voyager diagrams. I think only the Chester and Shrewsbury diagrams had a single unit before the pandemic; high peak Chester and the London to Scotland via Birmingham had double Voyagers - 8 coaches would be enough for these post pandemic.

The Avanti Super Voyagers are being replaced by new units before too long. There is no point in taking one coach out of them and putting it in a 4-car unit when you could just transfer the 5-car unit over.

We don't know whether XC will even return to the 2tph timetable in the future. They (and the DfT) may decide to continue the current 1tph doubled up timetable.

 

[Philip]

The Avanti Super Voyagers are being replaced by new units before too long. There is no point in taking one coach out of them and putting it in a 4-car unit when you could just transfer the 5-car unit over.

We don't know whether XC will even return to the 2tph timetable in the future. They (and the DfT) may decide to continue the current 1tph doubled up timetable.

Why would they do that though as it essentially halves the service level?

Fairly sure Cross Country trains will be back to being like sardines before the end of the year, so a full reinstatement of the old timetable will be required, with longer trains. And the railway needs to encourage passengers back on the trains; having an hour gap between Manchester-Birmingham services will do the opposite.

 

[Peter0124]

I think once passenger numbers are back up to reasonable levels and in the near future, all of the 4-coach CC units should made up to 5 by taking a coach out of the Avanti Super Voyagers. I don't know the numbers and whether there are enough Super Voyagers to increase all CC 4-car to 5, but as many as possible should be done; CC need the 5th coach more than Avanti do on their single unit Voyager diagrams. I think only the Chester and Shrewsbury diagrams had a single unit before the pandemic; high peak Chester and the London to Scotland via Birmingham had double Voyagers - 8 coaches would be enough for these post pandemic.

Quite a lot of 5 car voyagers operated Glasgow-Euston pre pandemic

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Why would they do that though as it essentially halves the service level?

Fairly sure Cross Country trains will be back to being like sardines before the end of the year, so a full reinstatement of the old timetable will be required, with longer trains. And the railway needs to encourage passengers back on the trains; having an hour gap between Manchester-Birmingham services will do the opposite.

From what I was told by XC, the reduced (current covid) timetable has meant services have run more reliably.

Personally, I'd rather have this timetable with double Voyagers if it means better reliability compared to the previous timetable with multiple 4 and 5-car sets.

Hopefully some of the Avanti 221's will transfer even if not all of them do.

 

[takno]

From what I was told by XC, the reduced (current covid) timetable has meant services have run more reliably.

Personally, I'd rather have this timetable with double Voyagers if it means better reliability compared to the previous timetable with multiple 4 and 5-car sets.

Hopefully some of the Avanti 221's will transfer even if not all of them do.

All operators services have been running more reliably. It's more to do with a lack of pesky passengers getting in the way than anything else. In XC's case there have also been a lot of other operators trains being removed and not getting in the way. Their own recast is unlikely to have made that much difference

 

[43096]

All operators services have been running more reliably. It's more to do with a lack of pesky passengers getting in the way than anything else. In XC's case there have also been a lot of other operators trains being removed and not getting in the way. Their own recast is unlikely to have made that much difference

Good to see the traditional railway view of passengers (aka customers - those who pay for the service) as pesky is alive and well!

Why do you think those other operators are getting better performance? In part because XC have rolled back from the Operation Pumpkin way of running half size trains every 30mins to running full size trains hourly.

 

[takno]

Good to see the traditional railway view of passengers (aka customers - those who pay for the service) as pesky is alive and well!

Why do you think those other operators are getting better performance? In part because XC have rolled back from the Operation Pumpkin way of running half size trains every 30mins to running full size trains hourly.

I'm not in the industry. If I choose to think of my fellow passengers as hapless idiots who keep messing things up then that's really my business

 

[The Planner]

Good to see the traditional railway view of passengers (aka customers - those who pay for the service) as pesky is alive and well!

Why do you think those other operators are getting better performance? In part because XC have rolled back from the Operation Pumpkin way of running half size trains every 30mins to running full size trains hourly.

A very very small part at that. It is mainly down to less passengers as it keeps dwells to a minimum, they are the biggest problem in a lot of areas and are just as difficult to fix.