Bangor - London return portion: Virgin off peak time

[Martymc]

Hi,

Apologies if this is a stupid query, but according to virgin's website, on travel from euston to bangor (n Wales), the only peak service is the 16.10, with an off peak ticket valid at all other times - see this link
http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/ci...ak+and+Super+Off+Peak+Ticket+Restrictions.pdf

On the face of it therefore, there's nothing to prevent me from taking the 16.07 service which is headed to Liverpool, getting off at Crewe and jumping on the service to north wales a few minutes later - the off peak ticket is valid between crewe and bangor. Is there a reason why this would not be ok? Typically, any virgin service via crewe is acceptable for travel to north wales, and I wouldn't be breaking virgin's rules as they are very specific that the only peak service to Bangor is the 16.10. Can anyone advise otherwise?

Many thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the full restriction:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=BNG&grpo=1072&tkt=SVR

The 1610 by my reading of that is barred throughout, so you could not change onto it. However, you could use a combination of other trains if there is one that works, such as the 1607 then some Arriva trains.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

It does say you can use trains departing from Milton Keynes Central after 0905 though, so maybe you could get the train at 1641 from Milton Keynes to Bangor?

 

[Phil from Mon]

In my experience it is the 1510 changing at Chester, and the 1610 that are barred, and the 1710 is barred to Chester.

But, I've been booked to change to the 1610 at Crewe when coming up from the Brum direction.

If I get to Euston too early it just gives me an excuse for a pint in the Doric Arch!

 

[krus_aragon]

It does say you can use trains departing from Milton Keynes Central after 0905 though, so maybe you could get the train at 1641 from Milton Keynes to Bangor?

Indeed it does... nice ambiguity there

When I last travelled back from London, I left Euston on the the 1540 Manchester service. We were late into Crewe and missed the Chester shuttle, so the next onward service, as it happened, was the 1710 ex-Euston. I boarded (as did many others), but I can't recall whether a further ticket check was made on the coast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But, I've been booked to change to the 1610 at Crewe when coming up from the Brum direction.

In which case you'll have had a different ticket, with a different restriction code. (Assuming you mean 'from' and not 'via' Birmingham.)

If I get to Euston too early it just gives me an excuse for a pint in the Doric Arch!

I'll second that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed it does... nice ambiguity there

In practice that would mean you would need to split tickets, as (even if it's badly worded) it's the departure from the origin on your ticket that is relevant in a condition of that type.

Funnily enough that train is pick-up only at MKC so you would have to take a different train to MKC as well.

Edit: It's tremendously badly worded, though. One reading of it would bar the 1610 from MKC as well, because that is a "train scheduled to depart London Euston at 1610" (indeed that's how most of LM's restrictions actually do work). But that isn't the intention, because VT's franchise agreement bars them from placing any kind of evening restriction on Off Peak tickets from MKC northbound. So it may be you'd get away with that train provided you weren't on it when you boarded at Euston. Hmm. Best thing might be to try to coerce a journey planner to give you a reservation on the combination you want...

Neil

 

[Martymc]

Thanksall, my ticket is actually off peak from Redhill to Bangor, says any permited route. I probably won't make the the 15.40 but want to get home asap. Agree it is ambiguous, 'peak' doesn't seem to exist on the crewe-bangor route, so if i missed the connection from the 15.40, or took a london midland service from euston, how would I know that this service was barred from Crewe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanksall, my ticket is actually off peak from Redhill to Bangor, says any permited route. I probably won't make the the 15.40 but want to get home asap. Agree it is ambiguous, 'peak' doesn't seem to exist on the crewe-bangor route, so if i missed the connection from the 15.40, or took a london midland service from euston, how would I know that this service was barred from Crewe?

One of the many confusions and anomalies of the system... But generally it's safe to assume (not in every case, though) that if you couldn't take a particular train from Euston with a ticket from Euston, you can't connect into that train either. I agree in this case it is a little confused and it *may* be valid but you are certain to get hassle and I wouldn't do it without a journey planner printout allowing it at least.

If you want to kill time at Crewe around that sort of time, there is (or was) a pretty good Indian a short way up the road, by the way.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

because VT's franchise agreement bars them from placing any kind of evening restriction on Off Peak tickets from MKC northbound.

I might have misunderstood you, but why do MKC - MAN off peak return tickets bar travel on ex-Eustons 1500-1845?

 

[yorkie]

Most Train Companies will use a different restriction codes for destinations/origins that are non-London area stations (for example, Peterborough - York or Didcot - Swansea have restriction codes that are unrestricted in the evening, as per fares regulation requirements, as opposed to Stevenage/London - York or Reading/London - Swansea which do have evening restrictions)

However Virgin Trains have decided to use the same restriction code for tickets from Milton Keynes. But they are not permitted to restrict tickets from Milton Keynes (though they did 'try it on' and for a while Virgin Trains were in breach of fares regulation, until it was spotted and reported). So the restriction text allows boarding at Milton Keynes at any time other than "after 0429 until 0905;"

If Virgin Trains do not want people to be able to board at Milton Keynes with certain tickets, they need to give tickets from MKC a completely different restriction code.

Until they do that, I'd argue that anyone boarding at MKC on a ticket that has a restriction stating "Not valid on trains timed to DEPART Milton Keynes Central: after 0429 until 0905" then their ticket is valid providing it's not between those times.

 

[gordonthemoron]

ofcourse MKC is even more confusing for return portions of Virgin Only EUS-MKC off peak tickets which are valid between 4:29 & 9:05 (not all the LM staff at MKC are aware of this)

 

[parkender102]

On a similar note I used to travel regularly from Shotton to London on an Off Peak Return Outward on Monday usually getting the 08:38 to Chester and then Crewe shuttle and 09:29 Manchester to London. I also used to take 07:27 with the same changes arriving in London at 10:05. The Off Peak restriction if travelling from a North Wales Station was that you could use any train that was scheduled to arrive in London after 10:00.

On trying to book this journey on East Coast Trains this morning it seems the journey 07:41 Shotton to London arriving at 10:06 with the same changes is no longer valid on an off peak ticket. The 08:38 with the same changes arriving at 11:08 however is. Yet if checking the Virgin website the first train available from Crewe to London on an Off Peak ticket is the 09:56. Contradicting the East Coast site which allows me to reserve a seat on the 09:30 Crewe to London Euston portion.

All very confusing - does anyone know what the correct interpretation is?

 

[button_boxer]

On a similar note I used to travel regularly from Shotton to London on an Off Peak Return Outward on Monday usually getting the 08:38 to Chester and then Crewe shuttle and 09:29 Manchester to London. I also used to take 07:27 with the same changes arriving in London at 10:05. The Off Peak restriction if travelling from a North Wales Station was that you could use any train that was scheduled to arrive in London after 10:00.

On trying to book this journey on East Coast Trains this morning it seems the journey 07:41 Shotton to London arriving at 10:06 with the same changes is no longer valid on an off peak ticket. The 08:38 with the same changes arriving at 11:08 however is.

Correct. Shotton to London now has restriction VK which bars arrivals at Euston before 1025.

Yet if checking the Virgin website the first train available from Crewe to London on an Off Peak ticket is the 09:56. Contradicting the East Coast site which allows me to reserve a seat on the 09:30 Crewe to London Euston portion.

All very confusing - does anyone know what the correct interpretation is?

Crewe to London has restriction 2C, which bars arrivals at Euston before 1130. You would not be able to use the 0930 between Crewe and London on a Crewe to London SVR, but you would be able to use this same train as part of a journey on a Shotton to London SVR.

There's no such thing as a peak or off-peak train, only restrictions applying to specific tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until they do that, I'd argue that anyone boarding at MKC on a ticket that has a restriction stating "Not valid on trains timed to DEPART Milton Keynes Central: after 0429 until 0905" then their ticket is valid providing it's not between those times.

I'd say it could be read as quite the opposite. Using the same restriction code means that trains departing London also affect journeys starting at MKC, and as such the 1610 is arguably barred for passengers from MKC as well.

Except it isn't, as they're not allowed to, but I guess you can see what I mean being the issue with the ambiguity? This is how LM do their South East restriction codes - everything is based on the train departing/arriving London when London is involved.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I might have misunderstood you, but why do MKC - MAN off peak return tickets bar travel on ex-Eustons 1500-1845?

They don't (but having lumped it together creates the same "bug" as noted here). There's a separate section for MKC lower down.

What it really should say (and I think it used to) is "tickets from/via" each station[1], which makes it have the intended effect.

It is correctly implemented in the Journey Planners.

[1] Then a line like "If more than one of these restriction lines apply to a given ticket, the strictest applies" or something.

Neil

 

[button_boxer]

I'd say quite the opposite. Using the same restriction code means that trains departing London also affect journeys starting at MKC, and as such the 1610 is barred for passengers from MKC as well.

Except it isn't, as they're not allowed to, but I guess you can see what I mean? This is how LM do their restriction codes - everything is based on the train departing/arriving London when London is involved.

Neil

As yorkie mentioned, the correct way for Virgin to fix this would be to use different restriction codes for MKC and London tickets, and not mention the MK departure times in the London-related code. The problem arises because they try to wedge incompatible conditions into the same restriction code.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As yorkie mentioned, the correct way for Virgin to fix this would be to use different restriction codes for MKC and London tickets, and not mention the MK departure times in the London-related code. The problem arises because they try to wedge incompatible conditions into the same restriction code.

That's another way to fix it, indeed. It isn't, however, wrong in the Journey Planner, so if you use that you won't come a-cropper.

Neil

 

[Phil from Mon]

re off peak changing at Crewe

In which case you'll have had a different ticket, with a different restriction code. (Assuming you mean 'from' and not 'via' Birmingham.)

Off peak rtn tomorrow March 4, Bangor to new street. Dep new street 1634, change Crewe to 1749 VT arriving Bangor 1921, that's the 1610 from Euston. Not the cheapest off peak (that's around £46) but still an off peak fare.

 

[button_boxer]

re off peak changing at Crewe


Off peak rtn tomorrow March 4, Bangor to new street. Dep new street 1634, change Crewe to 1749 VT arriving Bangor 1921, that's the 1610 from Euston. Not the cheapest off peak (that's around £46) but still an off peak fare.

Yes, but the restriction code for that ticket doesn't mention anything relating to London departure times - the Bangor-Birmingham Off Peak Return is 8A (no time restriction at all, but no BoJ on the outward), the Off Peak Day Return is B1 (0930 or later on weekdays, any time at weekends).

The point everyone is trying to make is that there's no such thing as a "peak train", the restrictions for the ticket determine which trains you can use with that ticket, not the other way around.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Yes, but the restriction code for that ticket doesn't mention anything relating to London departure times - the Bangor-Birmingham Off Peak Return is 8A (no time restriction at all, but no BoJ on the outward), the Off Peak Day Return is B1 (0930 or later on weekdays, any time at weekends).

The point everyone is trying to make is that there's no such thing as a "peak train", the restrictions for the ticket determine which trains you can use with that ticket, not the other way around.

Yes, but I was picked up for saying I had changed into that train when coming up from Birmingham, and clearly that can be done

 

[All Line Rover]

Shotton to London now has restriction VK which bars arrivals at Euston before 1025.

They certainly kept that one quiet, didn't they! Not that the change is unreasonable, as I don't consider the 08:23 and 08:29 Crewe to Euston departures to be 'off-peak'.

 

[bb21]

Yes, but I was picked up for saying I had changed into that train when coming up from Birmingham, and clearly that can be done

You are completely missing the point.

What happens when using a ticket to Birmingham (which has a completely different restriction code and a completely different set of time restrictions) has no relevance to holders of a ticket to London.

 

[yorkie]

re off peak changing at Crewe


Off peak rtn tomorrow March 4, Bangor to new street. Dep new street 1634, change Crewe to 1749 VT arriving Bangor 1921, that's the 1610 from Euston. Not the cheapest off peak (that's around £46) but still an off peak fare.

The Shotton <> Birmingham 'SVR' is valid "by any train" (unchanged from BR days; the only change is that the 'SVR' is no longer called Saver Return, it's now called Off Peak Return). Additionally, fares regulation prevents evening restrictions on this ticket.

This is very different to a Shotton <> London 'SVR' which does have restrictions.

 

[Phil from Mon]

You are completely missing the point.

What happens when using a ticket to Birmingham (which has a completely different restriction code and a completely different set of time restrictions) has no relevance to holders of a ticket to London.

Got you, apologies. I misread Krus Aragon's "you'll have had a different ticket" as "you won't have had an off peak," not as "you had an off peak but not from London." The perils of email....

Thanks for the clarification.