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Barnsley-Doncaster-valid via Wakefield?

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158757

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I've been told that a Barnsley-Doncaster return is valid via Wakefield-is this correct? Also will it be valid tomorrow with East Coast diverting via Leeds? I ask as I would like to go on the Penistone line tomorrow and also cover the diverts, and this would allow me to out one way and back another (via Meadowhall) for more variety.

Thanks
 
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yorkie

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If the East Coast site lets you book it, with a reservation, then my advice would be to book it, get a reservation and use it. It certainly seems reasonable to me. As for checking the validity, the Routeing Guide can provide a definitive answer, if you get stuck on it, let me know which point you are stuck on and I'll help :)
 

158757

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Sorry to be a pain but I haven't got a clue in the slightest how to use the routing guide. Also I don't know exactly which services I intend to travel on so can't really do reservations. It does let you book it via Wakefield but forces you onto the Northern Replacement bus to Donny. Might just have to buy seperate tickets.
 

323235

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Barnsley is a routing point
Doncaster is a routing point

mapped route on map JL shows the route Barnsley-Wakefield-Doncaster

Although I dunno about tomorrow and whethet you could go via Hambleton Junction when there are replacement buses running on the mapped route, its a big big big super sized question mark in my mind.
 
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158757

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Since the Wakefield-Doncaster train is direct (despite going via Leeds) would it be valid, or not?
 

yorkie

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See http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Instructions need to be read but they are not really clear, so I suggest following it up with some of their examples, which are under "The National Routeing Guide in Detail"

In the case of Barnsley - Donny it is actually quite easy because they are both Routeing Points (RPs), this means there is no need to determine appropriate RPs and no need to compare any fares, so you can go straight to the maps!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Since the Wakefield-Doncaster train is direct (despite going via Leeds) would it be valid, or not?
There are two issues here.

Direct trains are always valid. So a train from Barnsley to Doncaster, which is direct for the ticket held, is valid irrespective of route. However Wakefield-Doncaster is not 'direct' in that sense so you need via Wakefield to be a mapped route in order for it to be valid. Which, in this case, it is. So no problem there.

The fact that Wakefield-Donny trains are diverted doesn't affect the validity of those trains if they are valid on their 'normal' route, because the diverted route becomes a permitted route between Wakefield and Doncaster on that train.

An example of that is Preston - Edinburgh is not normally valid via York, Newcastle, Hexham, Carlisle and Edinburgh. However it is valid via York & Newcastle (or via Lancaster & Carlisle) therefore a Preston - Edinburgh ticket is valid on a York to Edinburgh via Hexham train. Because this train goes via Carlisle, it is on a permitted route, for that journey, via Carlisle, therefore a cheap Preston - Edinburgh Route Carlisle is valid. This was confirmed in approx 2008 by ATOC, and a GNER guard refused to accept it, and was basically told that he was wrong, he said we'd be removed from the train at Carlisle, but no attempt to remove us was made.

Know your rights, and stand your ground. The ticket is valid and if anyone says it is not, refuse to be bullied and get their details. However I am 99.9% confident you will have no problems whatsoever! :)
 

158757

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Thanks, I'll risk it and let you know how I get on. Cheers for the help :)
 

clagmonster

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I'm in agreement with what Yorkie says. I will give a brief explanation with regard the individual stages of use of the routeing guide, you will find lots of examples in the routeing guide in detail link which Yorkie has provided, and also on this message board.

Firstly we need to find the relevent routeing points. In this case, both Barnsley and Doncaster are routeing points. This makes this a simple example, things can get a little more complicated when you are dealing with stations which are not routeing points.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

Next, we need to find the routeing permissions for Barnsley-Doncaster. These are JL and PS.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

Now, we need to find which routes these routeing permissions allow. We do this looking at the maps section.
Map JL allows Barnsley-Wakefield-Doncaster.
Map PS allows Barnsley-Meadowhall-Swinton-Doncaster.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf

As there are engineering works effecting the Wakefield-Doncaster route, we use the following paragraph on page 6 of the instructions:
"ENGINEERING WORK, DIVERSIONS AND SERVICE DISRUPTION
The Routeing Guide has been produced using the published rail timetable and
fares manuals. It therefore takes into account all route variations allowed
that have been notified. On occasions due to short notice engineering work
and disruption, services may be diverted from their normal routes or
customers asked to use alternative routes. In these circumstances operators
will make special provision to allow extra permitted routes. They will advise
other operators and retailers of the extra provisions made to convey
customers by routes other than those which are normally permitted. This
provision will also apply to connecting services which are not directly
affected. Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a
permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This
does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially
advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
As Wakefield-Doncaster is normally on a permitted route for a Barnsley-Doncaster ticket, the ticket automatically becomes valid on the diverted East Coast services via Leeds, even so Leeds is not normally a valid route. Note that the ticket will not be valid on any other services via Leeds.
 

yorkie

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Print all the evidence, including the maps from the RG and the paragraph quoted above and take it with you. If you need advice, phone me :)

"Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a
permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at." is the most important statement on there.
 
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