Batley to Westhoughton - double-back via Hindley?

[61653 HTAFC]

Hi all.
I'm going to be making the following journey in the next few days (though as yet I don't know exactly when) and have been checking times and fares on the National Rail app...
My home station of Batley has a direct (if slow) train to Wigan but this runs via Atherton rather than Bolton so does not call at Westhoughton. Some journeys offered do involve a change at Hindley (where the Bolton and Atherton lines meet) and a double-back to Westhoughton from there, but none involve the direct(ish) Northern service via Brighouse. Is this simply down to timings being inconvenient and there always being a faster itinerary, or are there restrictions on what I assume is an easement allowing the double-back?

I ask simply because the purpose of my trip is to pick up my new car, therefore it's likely to be my last long(ish) train journey for a while- so I want to make it interesting! I'm torn between a rare (for me) run via the Calder Valley or the chance to have a ride on a 769 on diesel, something I've yet to experience. Is it possible to do both, even if it means a longer connection at Hindley?

TIA

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if it's Permitted or not, but that isn't a double back as you don't pass through any station twice. A double back is defined as passing through a station twice. There's no specific rule against going west then back east on different lines, you'll very often have a need to do that, e.g. if you wanted to go from Levenshulme to Mauldeth Road.

You could check if it's Permitted by using the NRE plannner and putting "via Hindley" and seeing if it says you have to buy two tickets.

 

[Watershed]

As @Bletchleyite says, it's not a doubleback, even if it's a slightly longer route than going via Bolton. That being said, sometimes doublebacks are permitted, and other times even routes that aren't doublebacks aren't permitted, so there's not really a rule of thumb you can use for this kind of thing.

The easiest way to check whether something is a permitted route is to use National Rail Enquiries to find the itinerary/route you want; if it offers a through ticket, then it's a permitted route for the route of fare offered (as well as any walk-up fare, other than an operator-specific one, that costs more). If it shows you a pop-up that says you need multiple tickets for some journeys, and you're told "ticket only valid on this service" on the itinerary/route in question, it's likely not a permitted route.

In this case, going via Hindley is a permitted route, so the choice of going via Hindley or Bolton is yours.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks both- so presumably the only reason I'm not being offered an itinerary that's a simple BTL -> HIN -> WHG is because a faster journey is always possible with a change at DEW/HUD/SYB/MCV or a combination of those?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks both- so presumably the only reason I'm not being offered an itinerary that's a simple BTL -> HIN -> WHG is because a faster journey is always possible with a change at DEW/HUD/SYB/MCV or a combination of those?

It sounds like. Why not try using via points to construct an itinerary as you want using NRE, and then you can get evidence that it's permitted for yourself?

 

[HurdyGurdy]

There are various ways you could try to get the journey planner to show the itinerary with the single change at Hindley, You could specify 'Via: Hindley" and/or "Via: Brighouse", and/or "Avoid: Bolton". If the planner allows you could also try "Exclude: Transpennine Express". But using any of those to reliably achieve your desired result requires some understanding of what routes are permitted, which operators serve which stations, railway geography, etc.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm reasonably confident it would be permitted, as I'm being quoted the same fares for pretty much all bits- just not all in the same itinerary. Only bit that isn't coming up is to go via Calder Valley, which I think is simply because it's slower than going via Huddersfield and Stalybridge.

Scrub that- having searched using Brighouse as a via point, no fares are being quoted. As I'm only going one way I'll look at splits. I was initially searching for returns just as peace-of-mind in case something goes pear-shaped with the car, so avoided splitting as only a cross-boundary ticket can be off-peak in the evening peak period. Though the chances of that are slim, so I'll look at singles which are anytime by default.

Trainsplit offered a journey splitting at Victoria and Hindley with advances, so for some reason NRE doesn't want to offer non-split walk-up fares combining the routing via Brighouse with the not-quite-a-double-back at Hindley for whatever reason... oh well, it's daft anomalies like this that reassure me that getting a car is the smart move!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm reasonably confident it would be permitted, as I'm being quoted the same fares for pretty much all bits- just not all in the same itinerary. Only bit that isn't coming up is to go via Calder Valley, which I think is simply because it's slower than going via Huddersfield and Stalybridge.

Scrub that- having searched using Brighouse as a via point, no fares are being quoted. As I'm only going one way I'll look at splits. I was initially searching for returns just as peace-of-mind in case something goes pear-shaped with the car, so avoided splitting as only a cross-boundary ticket can be off-peak in the evening peak period. Though the chances of that are slim, so I'll look at singles which are anytime by default.

Trainsplit offered a journey splitting at Victoria and Hindley with advances, so for some reason NRE doesn't want to offer non-split fares combining the routing via Brighouse with the not-quite-a-double-back at Hindley for whatever reason... oh well, it's daft anomalies like this that reassure me that getting a car is the smart move!

If it's not a Permitted Route the Forum site (Trainsplit) will work out the cheapest split for your journey without any extra charge (as it has nothing to base one on). It's quite handy!

(edit: I think the last paragraph was edited on before I posted this )

 

[SeanG]

If going via Atherton & Hindley, you could just get off at Daisy Hill, turn right out of the station and walk a mile or so up the road (less depending on where you want to go) and this may save quite a bit of time

 

[Trackman]

If going via Atherton & Hindley, you could just get off at Daisy Hill, turn right out of the station and walk a mile or so up the road (less depending on where you want to go) and this may save quite a bit of time

Good point, Daisy Hill is in Westhoughton (AFAIK) so it depends where you are going.

 

[JB_B]

... so for some reason NRE doesn't want to offer non-split walk-up fares combining the routing via Brighouse with the not-quite-a-double-back at Hindley for whatever reason... oh well, it's daft anomalies like this that reassure me that getting a car is the smart move!

I think the reason you can't get it without a split is this: for Batley - Westhoughton ( on route:any permitted tickets - which they all are ) there are no permitted routes going via Calder Valley ( the mapped routes and shortest routes are all via Huddersfield-Stalybridge. ) If you wanted to do it on one ticket then starting long on a Morley - Westhoughton ticket would work but it's a bit pricier. ( I've not looked but very likely splits will be cheaper.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the reason you can't get it without a split is this: for Batley - Westhoughton ( on route:any permitted tickets - which they all are ) there are no permitted routes going via Calder Valley ( the mapped routes and shortest routes are all via Huddersfield-Stalybridge. ) If you wanted to do it on one ticket then starting long on a Morley - Westhoughton ticket would work but it's a bit pricier. ( I've not looked but very likely splits will be cheaper.)

Splits will definitely be cheaper, but I'm a little confused as to why it isn't considered a valid route simply because it isn't quite as short- it's hardly a massive diversion or dogleg going via Hebden Bridge. Now if I was trying to travel via Burnley, Blackburn, Preston and Wigan I can see that that would be taking the Michael. If I was to simply buy a Batley to Westhoughton single and then travelled through to Hindley on the direct train, would I technically be travelling without a valid ticket under the rules? And more importantly, would any guard be justified (either legally or morally) in penalising me for making that journey with that ticket?

Also why the difference compared to Morley? Morley is served by the exact same trains that Batley is, the two stations are only a few miles apart on the same route, so there being a difference makes no sense whatsoever to me. I am eager to be enlightened as to the thought process behind this oddity.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all.
I'm going to be making the following journey in the next few days (though as yet I don't know exactly when) and have been checking times and fares on the National Rail app...
My home station of Batley has a direct (if slow) train to Wigan but this runs via Atherton rather than Bolton so does not call at Westhoughton. Some journeys offered do involve a change at Hindley (where the Bolton and Atherton lines meet) and a double-back to Westhoughton from there, but none involve the direct(ish) Northern service via Brighouse. Is this simply down to timings being inconvenient and there always being a faster itinerary, or are there restrictions on what I assume is an easement allowing the double-back?

I ask simply because the purpose of my trip is to pick up my new car, therefore it's likely to be my last long(ish) train journey for a while- so I want to make it interesting! I'm torn between a rare (for me) run via the Calder Valley or the chance to have a ride on a 769 on diesel, something I've yet to experience. Is it possible to do both, even if it means a longer connection at Hindley?

TIA

A lot of text here, but a simple itinerary would be useful; could you generate one using https://fastjp.com/ and link to it here?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A lot of text here, but a simple itinerary would be useful; could you generate one using https://fastjp.com/ and link to it here?

This is an itinerary I've quickly drawn up, set to avoid TPE services. Still not offering non-split fares, but given that it reduces the cost down to £8.80 I won't lose any sleep over it. I'm just surprised it isn't considered a valid route when it would be such a simple journey. What problem is the railway solving by blocking it?

My main reason for possibly wanting it as a non-split fare is so that should the worst case scenario happen and the car isn't ready to be driven home (or in the unlikely event that a spot something I previously missed that makes me reject it) I'd have a return ticket to get me home. If I've split at Hindley and Victoria the return half of the tickets entirely within Greater Manchester won't be valid between 1630 and 1900, whereas the return half of a BTL to WHG off peak day return will be, as it crosses the PTE boundary.

Thanks for pointing me towards that site, by the way. I've now bookmarked it for future use!

Hang on, I've just checked the link I posted above, and it hasn't retained the "avoid TPE" selection. Apologies.

If going via Atherton & Hindley, you could just get off at Daisy Hill, turn right out of the station and walk a mile or so up the road (less depending on where you want to go) and this may save quite a bit of time

Good point, Daisy Hill is in Westhoughton (AFAIK) so it depends where you are going.

Sorry for missing these posts- the guy at the garage did suggest that when I said I was coming from Yorkshire, but as Westhoughton is almost on the doorstep of the garage it seems a bit silly to give myself a longer walk.

 

[JB_B]

`

Splits will definitely be cheaper, but I'm a little confused as to why it isn't considered a valid route simply because it isn't quite as short- it's hardly a massive diversion or dogleg going via Hebden Bridge. Now if I was trying to travel via Burnley, Blackburn, Preston and Wigan I can see that that would be taking the Michael. If I was to simply buy a Batley to Westhoughton single and then travelled through to Hindley on the direct train, would I technically be travelling without a valid ticket under the rules? And more importantly, would any guard be justified (either legally or morally) in penalising me for making that journey with that ticket?

Also why the difference compared to Morley? Morley is served by the exact same trains that Batley is, the two stations are only a few miles apart on the same route, so there being a difference makes no sense whatsoever to me. I am eager to be enlightened as to the thought process behind this oddity.

Well, back in the real world, it's very unlikely that a guard or RPI would have any trouble at all with what you're hoping to do - it's completely reasonable.

I was specifically answering the question "why won't a journey planner offer this route?".

A slightly longer answer to that is really just more questions...

What happens when a human-oriented system - based on an idea of "reasonableness" - is replaced with a more-or-less formal system of rules that a computer can apply?

And then what happens if, over the last 27 years, the rules are only intermittently (or, occasionally, ineptly) updated to keep up with changes in service patterns?

I would guess that most users of the Leeds-Wigan direct will be using the service over only a part of it's run - so very likely almost all journeys would be direct and/or shortest-route and/or mapped ( And most of the longer distance passengers from Batley to Wigan who are going via Calder Valley would still have the advantage of the direct-train rule - just as you would if you were heading to Daisy Hill.)

There's no harm in asking Northern why the rules can't be changed - I've no idea how far that would get you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no harm in asking Northern why the rules can't be changed - I've no idea how far that would get you.

TOCs do read here, and so routeing issues do get corrected, both for good and for bad. Wouldn't be surprised if this one did purely on the strength of this thread.

 

[JB_B]

TOCs do read here, and so routeing issues do get corrected, both for good and for bad. Wouldn't be surprised if this one did purely on the strength of this thread.

Yes, that's true. It's a shame that it's so murky and hit-and-miss getting things changed. ( Although I can appreciate why the people responsible at the bottom rung of the internals might be nervous of making corrections.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TOCs do read here, and so routeing issues do get corrected, both for good and for bad. Wouldn't be surprised if this one did purely on the strength of this thread.

Well that reassures me that it isn't just me being silly!

The garage phoned me yesterday to say the car would be ready today, so I booked through TrainSplit using Northern advances to Hindley (split at Victoria) and a Cheap Day Single from Hindley to Westhoughton. Total cost £13.30 and a pleasant but slow trek up the Calder Valley. Just passing Greetland Junction as I type!

 

[Grumpy]

Well that reassures me that it isn't just me being silly!

The garage phoned me yesterday to say the car would be ready today, so I booked through TrainSplit using Northern advances to Hindley (split at Victoria) and a Cheap Day Single from Hindley to Westhoughton. Total cost £13.30 and a pleasant but slow trek up the Calder Valley. Just passing Greetland Junction as I type!

Apologies for coming to this late but did you consider the current Northern/Yorkshire Evening Post (and some other papers in the group) Autumn £10 day ticket? Collect 3 tokens by 15 November (could be 3 from same day), download and print form, attach tokens, take form to booking office and buy Northern Day rover for £10. Tokens valid till 17 Nov.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies for coming to this late but did you consider the current Northern/Yorkshire Evening Post (and some other papers in the group) Autumn £10 day ticket? Collect 3 tokens by 15 November (could be 3 from same day), download and print form, attach tokens, take form to booking office and buy Northern Day rover for £10. Tokens valid till 17 Nov.

I didn't, mainly because I wasn't aware of it! Thanks for letting me know though, despite the purpose of the trip in this thread (collecting a new car) I may go for that offer just for a day out... possibly one that will save more than three pounds on the normal or advance fare!

 

[Haywain]

Apologies for coming to this late but did you consider the current Northern/Yorkshire Evening Post (and some other papers in the group) Autumn £10 day ticket? Collect 3 tokens by 15 November (could be 3 from same day), download and print form, attach tokens, take form to booking office and buy Northern Day rover for £10. Tokens valid till 17 Nov.

Would that have saved anything by the time the three newspapers had been bought?

 

[Grumpy]

I didn't, mainly because I wasn't aware of it! Thanks for letting me know though, despite the purpose of the trip in this thread (collecting a new car) I may go for that offer just for a day out... possibly one that will save more than three pounds on the normal or advance fare!

There's a special offers thread on the fares forum. Worth keeping an eye on.

Would that have saved anything by the time the three newspapers had been bought?

Depends .
If you're only making a round trip from Batley to Leeds direct then clearly not worth bothering with the ticket. If you fancy a circuit Batley to Batley via Leeds, Carlisle, Whitehaven and Preston then it's no-brainer

 

[Haywain]

Depends .
If you're only making a round trip from Batley to Leeds direct then clearly not worth bothering with the ticket. If you fancy a circuit Batley to Batley via Leeds, Carlisle, Whitehaven and Preston then it's no-brainer

Specifically, for the OP and their £13.30 tickets, although I suspect you know exactly what I was asking.

 

[Grumpy]

Specifically, for the OP and their £13.30 tickets, although I suspect you know exactly what I was asking.

I don't know exactly what you were asking. If you meant would it be cheaper to buy the £13.30 tickets or buy 3 papers then the £10 rover it's clearly marginal financially. However the OP said he wanted to make the journey interesting which would have given him more opportunities