Bee Network - list of franchises awarded (Tranche 3 included)

[Mollman]

Other than the extension of one of Warrington's services from Altrincham to the Airport (as an extension of the X5), all of their services running into Greater Manchester (to Altrincham and Leigh) are cross-boundary services. Are you able to clarify which of these routes they will be losing to TfGM-franchised operators?

I think they are referring to the Wigan area services WoB used to run, I think they were all contracts though including some ex-Jim Stones routes.

 

[mangad]

Other than the extension of one of Warrington's services from Altrincham to the Airport (as an extension of the X5), all of their services running into Greater Manchester (to Altrincham and Leigh) are cross-boundary services. Are you able to clarify which of these routes they will be losing to TfGM-franchised operators?

Belle Vue run the 280 on behalf of TfGm. If I remember correctly it was an ex little Gem service so always known to be temporary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Other than the extension of one of Warrington's services from Altrincham to the Airport (as an extension of the X5), all of their services running into Greater Manchester (to Altrincham and Leigh) are cross-boundary services. Are you able to clarify which of these routes they will be losing to TfGM-franchised operators?

If any operator exterior-based away from Greater Manchester found that cross-border services they operated were in any danger of being taken over by a TfGM franchised operator, they should simply take the obvious step of withdrawing those parts of the services that pass into Greater Manchester and cite that as a reason to the Traffic Commisioners.

 

[daodao]

Belle Vue run the 280 on behalf of TfGm. If I remember correctly it was an ex little Gem service so always known to be temporary.

Belle Vue route 280 is wholly within Greater Manchester and is part of the Trafford small franchise that has been awarded to Diamond (Rotala). Warrington buses have ceased operating via Dunham as the roads are unsuitable for the larger buses that they use.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Transdev didn't bid.

The business of Transdev has been rather anti-franchising for years, with them selling their London ops to RATP in 2014. From what I understand, it doesn't suit their way of operating the business

How do you know they didn’t bid?
Transdev is a worldwide business with most of its work under contract to the public sector so it’s a stretch to suggest it doesnt suit their way of operating the business. Their Rochdale business was largely run under contract to TFGM anyway.

 

[Lucy Michela]

How do you know they didn’t bid?
Transdev is a worldwide business with most of its work under contract to the public sector so it’s a stretch to suggest it doesnt suit their way of operating the business. Their Rochdale business was largely run under contract to TFGM anyway.

There was a couple of sources, including one who I believe worked for them, who stated Transdev had no intention of bidding.

It's not that they don't like contract work, they just don't like running a franchised service. It's totally understandable. Arriva didn't bid because they want to focus on Merseyside when it comes to bidding for franchised work

 

[Leedsbusman]

Transdev didn't bid.

The business of Transdev has been rather anti-franchising for years, with them selling their London ops to RATP in 2014. From what I understand, it doesn't suit their way of operating the business

How do you know they didn’t bid?
Transdev is a worldwide business with most of its work under contract to the public sector so it’s a stretch to suggest it doesnt suit their way of operating the business. Their Rochdale operation was largely tendered anyway so again having run a load of gross cost contracts

Pretty much yes. No deal is done between the current operator at a depot and the one coming in on takeover.

Negotiations take place between TFGM and the depot owner/operator to purchase the depot and any operating equipment such as washes, fuel pumps etc. the operator then has the choice to add any vehicles to negations. Vehicles then enter the vehicle pool and are either purchased by the incoming operator or loaned until subsequent vehicles are sourced.

So diamond sold the StreetDecks, E200’s and Citaros to TFGM, they were entered into the vehicle pool and GNW decided to take them on.

GNW has sold the Scania’s and B5 hybrids to TFGM and they have entered the vehicle pool, stagecoach have decided to loan them rather than purchase them until enough vehicles of their own are available.


Operators are not obliged to take vehicles on. As I understand it the B5 hybrids and Scania’s currently being used by Stagecoach were sold to TFGM by GNW but have not been acquired by Stagecoach but are being loaned until vehicle orders are complete and delivered.

Trust me operators are required to run the fleet identified for the franchise. Due to the delays in vehicle procurement for Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 (esp Stockport), operators were approached to put vehicles into a contingency fleet pool to provide cover. I believe the older GNW buses fall into this as they were too old for the franchise fleet pool.

There was a couple of sources, including one who I believe worked for them, who stated Transdev had no intention of bidding.

It's not that they don't like contract work, they just don't like running a franchised service. It's totally understandable. Arriva didn't bid because they want to focus on Merseyside when it comes to bidding for franchised work

And other sources who said they did and were very disappointed to have lost. Unfortunately neither of us are likely to be in a position to know for sure which is why I was intrigued that you seemed to know.

 

[GusB]

Apologies for the temporary locking of the thread; it's far easier to relocate posts when people aren't adding to the thread.

The recent announcement of the Tranche 3 winners has obviously created a bit of excitement and no doubt there will be much more to discuss before this goes live.

In an effort to simplify matters, posts in this thread referring to vehicle transfers, deliveries etc. have been moved here:

TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

For those who maybe interested, 40764 is the latest repaint into Bee Network yellow at BN depot, with 40796 the next one in. Repaints are also starting at outside contractors from this week too.

www.railforums.co.uk

The thread title has been amended slightly to "TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion".

There is also a thread here for discussing service improvements:

Bee Network Service Improvements (Existing services)

The previous Bee Network thread seems to have been closed, so I’ve had to create this new one TfGM have announced various frequency increases on the services that will join the Bee Network in Phase 2 from 24th March https://tfgm.com/the-bee-network/bus-service-changes Improvements are being...

www.railforums.co.uk

This should be used to discuss any changes to Bee Network routes that are already in operation.

Anything else concerning the Tranche 3 awards can remain here. If there's something you wish to discuss that doesn't quite fit into any of the existing threads, it's best that you start a new thread. If you make sure that "Bee Network" is contained within the thread title, it makes it easy to find via the forum's search facility.

Thanks, all

 

[Volvodart]

Metroline might by second-hand ex London stock, from various dealerships, in addition to bringing in its own London stock, as per GoAhead. Metroline tend no to buy products from ADL and prefer Volvo and Wrightbus so perhaps any additional new buses in addition to the TfGM stock, will be Volvo's or Wrightbus.

No text available as it is behind a paywall, but the link below says the only Wrightbus diesel order for the current year is 126 buses for Manchester.

On the buses for hydrogen revolution

'On the buses for hydrogen revolution'. Jean-Marc Gales, Wrightbus CEO, speaks to The Times

wrightbus.com

 

[Andyh82]

What routes will not be included in Bee Network?

By my reckoning, non franchised routes would be

Arriva North West - 34, 320, 352, 360, 375, 385
Belle Vue - 391, 392, 393
D&G Bus - 88, 130, 312, T3
First West Yorkshire - 590
High Peak - 199, 394
HTL Buses - 156, 602
Preston Bus - 311
South Pennine Community Transport - 352, 357
Stagecoach M&SL - 111, 125, 127, 157
Transdev The Blackburn Bus Company - X41
Transdev The Burnley Bus Company - X43
Transdev Rosso - 464, 481, 483
Transdev Team Pennine - 587
Travel Assist - TA01, TA02
Warrington's Own Buses - 19, 22, 22A, 28, 28A, 28E, CAT5, X5

 

[northwichcat]

D&G Bus - 88, 130, 312, T3

The "Handforth Dean Free Bus" services aren't regular bus services for practical purposes. As they're funded by Tesco and M&S and don't collect fares, they aren't registered.

 

[317 forever]

I believe it’s not just about point scoring and cost. Each operator has to deliver a business plan type presentation explaining what they would bring to a contract.
Just seems odd that ever since stagecoach announced they were making Stockport 100% electric the feeling in the industry was that it was done to secure Stockport depot, and low and behold they have lost everything but Stockport.

Another interesting feat about Stagecoach's franchise in stage 3 being Stockport is that it is noticeably south of their other trio of franchises (Middleton, Queen's Road and Oldham). It is as though TfGM did not want all Stagecoach work in 1 big chunk of adjacent garages.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Another interesting feat about Stagecoach's franchise in stage 3 being Stockport is that it is noticeably south of their other trio of franchises (Middleton, Queen's Road and Oldham). It is as though TfGM did not want all Stagecoach work in 1 big chunk of adjacent garages.

I don't think it matters now... Stagecoach could have won the lot but it'd still be TfGM calling the shots...

 

[Leedsbusman]

Another interesting feat about Stagecoach's franchise in stage 3 being Stockport is that it is noticeably south of their other trio of franchises (Middleton, Queen's Road and Oldham). It is as though TfGM did not want all Stagecoach work in 1 big chunk of adjacent garages.

More interesting is that Stockport is the only large franchise that hasn’t gone to the same winner as the others in the tranche. I suspect Stagecoach was better placed given that the new depot won’t be ready in time so owning the existing one with a useable fleet must have helped.

It has seemed strange that TFGM hasn’t imposed any market share limits on individual operators. I recall TFL once had either 25 or 30% max limit on one operator. They have perhaps been fortunate nobody has swept the board completely.

 

[mayneway]

Another interesting feat about Stagecoach's franchise in stage 3 being Stockport is that it is noticeably south of their other trio of franchises (Middleton, Queen's Road and Oldham). It is as though TfGM did not want all Stagecoach work in 1 big chunk of adjacent garages.

In that case it would have made more sense to break up the Tranche 2 depots instead of them all going to stagecoach, likewise giving most of the T3 depots to metroline.

I don't think it matters now... Stagecoach could have won the lot but it'd still be TfGM calling the shots...

It’s hardly all rosey though. The chaos’s at Oldham continues with more work being run out of the other depots using their manpower/vehicles.

Plus TFGM’s commitment to end the use of agency drivers. How??

More interesting is that Stockport is the only large franchise that hasn’t gone to the same winner as the others in the tranche. I suspect Stagecoach was better placed given that the new depot won’t be ready in time so owning the existing one with a useable fleet must have helped.

It has seemed strange that TFGM hasn’t imposed any market share limits on individual operators. I recall TFL once had either 25 or 30% max limit on one operator. They have perhaps been fortunate nobody has swept the board completely.

There was originally supposed to be a limit of 29% per operator.
When we had our first Q&A session with TFGM and the franchise partners which feels like a lifetime ago I’m pretty sure they said each operator could only have 29% of the total market, Infact when GNW won the first round they were called ‘greedy’ by the trade union as it would leave them unable to bid for all of T2 but they didn’t anyway.

 

[Andyh82]

Do you think when the franchises are being next let in 5 years they might move some of the services around as some of them don’t make sense, if you were starting from scratch

The 76 should probably be run from Oldham like other Oldham to Manchester services
The 348 should probably be run by Ashton
The 41 by Sharston like the other Wilmslow Road services
The 163 should probably be run by either Queens Road or Middleton
The 38 possibly run by Bolton like the 36 & 37

 

[Leedsbusman]

Do you think when the franchises are being next let in 5 years they might move some of the services around as some of them don’t make sense, if you were starting from scratch

The 76 should probably be run from Oldham like other Oldham to Manchester services
The 348 should probably be run by Ashton
The 41 by Sharston like the other Wilmslow Road services
The 163 should probably be run by either Queens Road or Middleton
The 38 possibly run by Bolton like the 36 & 37

Yes undoubtedly - there is no real need to wait either as contract changes can be negotiated. I suspect the planned network reviews will lead to plenty of adjustments.

 

[daodao]

The 41 by Sharston like the other Wilmslow Road services

The Wilmslow Road services 42/42A/42B/42C/142/147 are run by Hyde Road depot. Only services 43/143 that run along Palatine Road, joining Wilmslow Road at Withington, are run from Sharston depot. Queens Road depot is very close to the current route of service 41 so it is not illogical for it to remain with that depot, at least for now.

 

[Andyh82]

The Wilmslow Road services 42/42A/42B/42C/142/147 are run by Hyde Road depot. Only services 43/143 that run along Palatine Road, joining Wilmslow Road at Withington, are run from Sharston depot. Queens Road depot is very close to the current route of service 41 so it is not illogical for it to remain with that depot, at least for now.

Sorry I meant Hyde Road for that one

It’s only run by Queens Road due to the history of it being a Finglands then First then Go North West service though presumably? If it had been a Stagecoach service like the other routes it would have happily been run from Hyde Road

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm still a little surprised that the 313 and 368 are under the Wythenshawe franchise. If a Stockport route was to be moved there surely the 11 is a better bet as there will be less dead mileage than moving the 313 and 368.

If you look at the route mileage on both the 313 and the 368. the much greater parts of both those two journeys are within the area of the Stockport local authority borders.

 

[mancbus]

The Wilmslow Road services 42/42A/42B/42C/142/147 are run by Hyde Road depot. Only services 43/143 that run along Palatine Road, joining Wilmslow Road at Withington, are run from Sharston depot. Queens Road depot is very close to the current route of service 41 so it is not illogical for it to remain with that depot, at least for now.

But the 147 goes around Palatine Road so shouldn’t Sharston run that route too?

I personally think Hyde Road should run the 50 because it goes Salford and East Didsbury and it would be more convenient for the depot to run it, especially since they used to run the route until 2017.

Also, the 17/18 should be reverted back to queens road as well since they don’t even go Oldham.

 

[StagecoachBus1]

Is it known yet which operators have won the school contracts for tranche 3?

 

[Volvodart]

Is it known yet which operators have won the school contracts for tranche 3?

It usually takes a few months it is just a month since the tenders went in.