Bihourly minimum service on all lines

[A S Leib]

Following recent news that the the Esk Valley line might go up to 8 tpd in a few years, how realistic would it be to have at least one train per two hours on every line? I think the lines where this isn't currently the case are

• Far North
• Kyle of Lochalsh
• West Highland
• Ayr – Stranraer
• Morpeth – Chathill local service
• Leeds – Lancaster / Carlisle's mostly every two hours but with some gaps of ~2½ hours
• Nunthorpe – Whitby
• Knottingley – Goole
• Sheffield – York via Pontefract Baghill
• Gainsborough Central – Barnetby
• Lincoln – Doncaster
• Corby – Oakham
• Reedham – Great Yarmouth
• Conwy Valley
• Heart of Wales
• Fishguard
• Ellesmere Port – Helsby
• Stockport – Stalybridge
• Heysham

Out of those, I think

• Inverness – Dingwall departures are already quite clustered (e.g. departures at 10:41, 10:56 and 11:43, 13:35, 14:00 and 14:50) so I think an hourly service on that bit would make more sense than splitting trains at Dingwall
• How would the cost of any line improvements compare with running existing buses (especially true for the Far North as buses are time-competitive as well)?
• Now Cairnryan has the ferries, it's harder to justify 1tp2h, beyond the relative frequency which would apply everywhere
• A bihourly service for Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington, Chathill and Reston makes more sense post-HS2, with less need for faster King's Cross / Plymouth – Edinburgh services
• Leeds is large and close to Goole, but the existing service is 20 minutes slower than driving
• Sheffield – York, Newcastle and Edinburgh is close to 500 passengers per day; is that enough to justify more services which avoid the much larger flows involving Leeds?
• Having EMR as a (slow) consistent alternative to LNER between Peterborough and Doncaster would be good
• I can't see either electrification of the Welland Viaduct or Corby services going to bi-modes or back to diesel happening soon, so more frequent Corby – Oakham services aren't happening soon
• Reedham and Cantley aren't big. Great Yarmouth – Cantley – Lowestoft would take around the same time as by bus with good connection times, but I don't know if there's space at Norwich, or if Acle's services should be cut if not

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conwy Valley would just require funding for a second unit and crew. The infrastructure already allows a roughly 1h30 frequency and that has operated in the past, though I'm sure I recall a small amount of work would need to be done on the Llanrwst loop before it could be used for passing trains again due to some sort of expired certification? Might be thinking of elsewhere, though.

You can't easily do 0.5tph clockface due to the location of the loop though. I've tried to work out a timetable for that in the past and couldn't.

With the Conwy Valley I've often thought that having a think about the use cases and actually reducing by one round trip but with the remaining ones targetted to specific purposes would result in a more useful service than the present blind "every three hours" which only really suits leisure travel. I'm a big proponent of Takt but once you get under hourly it becomes a lot less useful.

 

[SynthD]

Do any of them have buses that serve the area better than an idea of neatness on paper?

 

[Starmill]

Conwy Valley would just require funding for a second unit and crew. The infrastructure already allows a roughly 1h30 frequency and that has operated in the past, though I'm sure I recall a small amount of work would need to be done on the Llanrwst loop before it could be used for passing trains again due to some sort of expired certification? Might be thinking of elsewhere, though.

You can't easily do 0.5tph clockface due to the location of the loop though. I've tried to work out a timetable for that in the past and couldn't.

With the Conwy Valley I've often thought that having a think about the use cases and actually reducing by one round trip but with the remaining ones targetted to specific purposes would result in a more useful service than the present blind "every three hours" which only really suits leisure travel. I'm a big proponent of Takt but once you get under hourly it becomes a lot less useful.

Doesn't it need a new token instrument and tokens or a train staff altogether? If so, that's achievable but not a trivial piece of work.

Round trip time from Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffest is 2h 8m with all stations served and 4 min turnaround.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't it need a new token instrument and tokens or a train staff altogether? If so, that's achievable but not a trivial piece of work.

Because it's a fairly simple operation you could probably do it with train staff and ticket. How much is a piece of wood?

At last count the tokens were still in use, though, or at least something that looks like it, there's just I think a rule that trains can't cross there - I completely forget why.

Round trip time from Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffest is 2h 8m with all stations served and 4 min turnaround.

I believe 0.5tph with one unit was tried once but was grossly unreliable. And the main destination is Llandudno, so a change wouldn't be popular.

I still think looking at creating a timetable with a clear purpose for each journey, even if less frequent than now, is a better plan for the line. Might also involve turning some services round at Betws because that's the main tourist destination - the line is a lot quieter south of there. Indeed, if we want to get controversial, if you closed south of Betws entirely (which might eventually happen anyway if the tunnel falls down properly) you could do 0.5tph clockface Llandudno-Betws with a single unit, and probably serve a lot more people more usefully.

 

[A S Leib]

Do any of them have buses that serve the area better than an idea of neatness on paper?

Newcastle – Berwick's a bihourly bus, but I don't know how close it comes to Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill. I'd guess not for the middle Esk Valley, as Whitby itself has the buses via Guisborough and to Scarborough. Llandrindod to Swansea's half an hour quicker by train than via Brecon by bus.

 

[30907]

2-hourly as a broad guideline makes sense on most routes, but I'm not convinced that a strict 2-hourly interval is essential. It isn't memorable in the way that "xx past the hour" is, so casual travellers will always check the train time anyway.
The first priority is to cater for actual and likely traffic flows as efficiently as possible, whether it's the Whitby scholars or the S and C daytrippers, both of which determine timetables. If that means a 90-min interval (out of Leeds in the mornings) and the odd longer gap later, or 3 trains over 7 hours (the best Whitby could be), so be it.
Where there aren't those flows, then with main lines typically being based on an hourly repeat, then you keep the strict interval to benefit longer-distance connecting passengers. That works if there is an obvious "main" connection (Machynlleth comes to mind - I know the Coast trains often work through).
Lincoln-Doncaster is another example.

 

[The exile]

Think you’ve forgotten Stockport - Stalybridge!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think you’ve forgotten Stockport - Stalybridge!

If HS2 2B gets built, a half hourly Stockport to Manchester Victoria service with a few new stations along there in more useful locations (e.g. not "motorway junction not-very-central" per Denton) would make a lot of sense, but it can't be pathed with the London services on the viaduct.

 

[lachlan]

Do any of them have buses that serve the area better than an idea of neatness on paper?

In the case of the Far North line end-to-end buses are quicker, but they take a shorter loop that skips some settlements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of the Far North line end-to-end buses are quicker, but they take a shorter loop that skips some settlements.

There was a plan for hourly electric buses on the Conwy Valley route, but it all went quiet due to funding issues and the bus service was actually withdrawn entirely in the end.

 

[A S Leib]

Think you’ve forgotten Stockport - Stalybridge!

And Ellesmere Port – Helsby (best electrified and given to Merseyrail if anything's done?).

 

[lachlan]

Chippenham-Trowbridge via Melksham has almost one train per two hours, but not quite.

I would presume capacity on the mainline at Swindon and lack of passing loops on the line prevent an increase in service. An improved service for Melksham residents would obviously be good and it would enable north-south journeys via Chippenham and Swindon to be made without the reversal at Bath.

I feel spare capacity on the mainline at Swindon would be better used for the proposed Bristol-Oxford services and reopening stations at Grove and Wootton Bassett.

There was a plan for hourly electric buses on the Conwy Valley route, but it all went quiet due to funding issues and the bus service was actually withdrawn entirely in the end.

That's a shame - if buses could serve all rail stops and be quicker, there may be a case for replacing trains on shorter routes. The Scottish lines are too long and have too many hard-to-reach stops for them to be replicable by buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a shame - if buses could serve all rail stops and be quicker, there may be a case for replacing trains on shorter routes. The Scottish lines are too long and have too many hard-to-reach stops for them to be replicable by buses

I really don't think we should go there - it didn't work for Beeching and it won't work now.

However, there would certainly be scope for augmentation (the Conwy Valley used to have a tendered early evening journey by bus to make it useful for commuters, for example) and use at quiet times as the French do.

(What I do think would be good in Scotland would be Scottish Citylink and the railway being in the same booking systems - the coaches and trains together are a far more powerful incentive not to use the car than each alone - perhaps Transport Scotland should come up with something like the Dutch 9292ov.nl but with ticket sales included).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Newcastle – Berwick's a bihourly bus, but I don't know how close it comes to Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill

South of Alnwick there are three buses an hour to Newcastle, two via Morpeth (one fast via the A1 and Felton, one slow via Alnmouth, Amble, Acklington, Widdrington Station, Pegswood) and one via Amble, Widdrington Station and Ashington.

There are also more buses from Widdrington Station (NB Widdrington Station is the village that grew up around Widdrington station and is now actually larger than Widdrington) and Pegswood into Morpeth and Ashington.

To be quite frank you could shut Acklington and barely anyone would even notice.

 

[The exile]

Chippenham-Trowbridge via Melksham has almost one train per two hours, but not quite.

I would presume capacity on the mainline at Swindon and lack of passing loops on the line prevent an increase in service. An improved service for Melksham residents would obviously be good and it would enable north-south journeys via Chippenham and Swindon to be made without the reversal at Bath.

I feel spare capacity on the mainline at Swindon would be better used for the proposed Bristol-Oxford services and reopening stations at Grove and Wootton Bassett.

In my ideal world the third platform at Chippenham and the Bradford North curve would be reinstated along with a doubling of the Melksham line to permit a stopping service Bristol to Chippenham via Melksham in addition to the proposed Swindon - Salisbury service (which has local political significance, as well as connectivity benefits)

 

[Starmill]

At last count the tokens were still in use, though, or at least something that looks like it, there's just I think a rule that trains can't cross there - I completely forget why.

Tokens, yes. However, isn't an intermediate instrument required at North for trains to pass? And the one there was out of use? That would be a relatively big fix.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tokens, yes. However, isn't an intermediate instrument required at North for trains to pass? And the one there was out of use? That would be a relatively big fix.

Ah I see, so the token is held all the way to Llandudno and back and just handed in when going south of Llanrwst? Makes sense.

Train staff and ticket would do the job. To be honest, train staff alone would except for the rare operation of charters because the operation is symmetrical (which wouldn't be able to be pathed if we went up to a full two train service anyway - it would join Windermere in being a potentially attractive tourist destination that can't fit charters in).

 

[yorksrob]

I would definitely like to see regular services being brought back to Knottingley - Goole and the Brigg line as these are in areas I know (and they have settlements of a size that would benefit).

As a concept, I think a 2-hourly minimum service is a good one.

 

[Starmill]

Ah I see, so the token is held all the way to Llandudno and back and just handed in when going south of Llanrwst? Makes sense.

Train staff and ticket would do the job. To be honest, train staff alone would except for the rare operation of charters because the operation is symmetrical (which wouldn't be able to be pathed if we went up to a full two train service anyway - it would join Windermere in being a potentially attractive tourist destination that can't fit charters in).

Staff alone could work for North - Ffestiniog yes. I don't think it'd be allowed for a section with two exits though because it would risk being stuck at the wrong end?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Staff alone could work for North - Ffestiniog yes. I don't think it'd be allowed for a section with two exits though because it would risk being stuck at the wrong end?

Aside from charters the service is symmetrical - one train goes in, one out - so it's no great issue. Staff and ticket gets around that for the occasional charter.

 

[Starmill]

Aside from charters the service is symmetrical - one train goes in, one out - so it's no great issue. Staff and ticket gets around that for the occasional charter.

It's more than just charters as there are also trains in need of rescue, trains running in serious disruption, departmental trains and engineering works to consider. For a new installation I don't know if "tickets" would be allowed, it's not an area I'm particularly knowledgeable in. It could be that it's all soluble with relatively little capital spend still. But it needs at least a little bit.

 

[RT4038]

I really don't think we should go there - it didn't work for Beeching and it won't work now.

But it did work for Beeching - the lines got closed and the railways got shot of the losses incurred in operating and maintaining them. I don't think there was ever any intention to 'guarantee' the operation of any bus service in perpetuity, or for that bus service to be part of the rail transport network, beyond the initial three year subsidy period (and even that requirement was abolished in the 1968 Transport Act, but that didn't affect the majority of line closures).

I think the concept will inevitably come back sooner or later - running two 'man' trains , probably on less productive duty schedules and more expensive pay rates than bus staff, on a dedicated track requiring expensive renewal/maintenance from time to time, with only bus or less than bus loads of passengers, will need to come under the microscope at some point. Whether whole lines or part of the day only - in fact fairly standard practice on many European mainland branch and secondary routes I think?

 

[Grecian 1998]

The Weymouth - Westbury leg of the Heart of Wessex line is almost 2 hourly save for one near 3 hourly gap in each direction between the evening peak and late evening. As it's 2 hourly the rest of the day and has a much more frequent summer Saturday service southbound in the morning and northbound in the afternoon, I'm not aware of any reason the infrastructure couldn't cope with a 2 hourly service. It could probably cope with hourly in theory with trains crossing at either Dorchester West and Yeovil PM, or Maiden Newton and Castle Cary, but in practice the timetable would fall apart even quicker than it frequently does on the Salisbury - Exeter route.

 

[A S Leib]

The Weymouth - Westbury leg of the Heart of Wessex line is almost 2 hourly save for one near 3 hourly gap in each direction between the evening peak and late evening. As it's 2 hourly the rest of the day and has a much more frequent summer Saturday service southbound in the morning and northbound in the afternoon, I'm not aware of any reason the infrastructure couldn't cope with a 2 hourly service. It could probably cope with hourly in theory with trains crossing at either Dorchester West and Yeovil PM, or Maiden Newton and Castle Cary, but in practice the timetable would fall apart even quicker than it frequently does on the Salisbury - Exeter route.

For the last train of the day, I suspect the decision was that between the last train from Bristol to Weymouth being at 20:00 or people being able to be in Bristol until half past eight without issues, the latter was preferable. I don't know if moving that one to an hour later, arriving at Weymouth at ~00:30, would be practical; maybe keeping things as they are but adding a ~20:10 from Bristol would be better?

 

[dk1]

I regularly see an ex-employee at Norwich who was an assistant ticket examiner in the 70s/80s when the Norwich-Yarmouth via Reedham service was cut back. Asked his opinion on the route he admitted it was a lost cause when compared to the almost hourly frequency offered. The odd passenger here and there but most from Norwich who could’ve caught a Lowestoft service anyway. Cantley/Reedham to Yarmouth passenger numbers were often lucky to reach into much more than double figures on a daily basis from each station. Berney Arms added very little to those numbers either by then.

 

[Western 52]

What about Heysham? Can't see that being two hourly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about Heysham? Can't see that being two hourly.

Heysham is really hard to justify at all, a dedicated coach from Lancaster station would be more useful and easier to tie in with the variation in ferry times you get due to tidal and weather conditions. It probably only persists because the line is needed for nuclear flask traffic and the unit/crew is in marginal time by missing out a round trip to Lancaster at a not particularly busy time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Conwy Valley would just require funding for a second unit and crew. The infrastructure already allows a roughly 1h30 frequency and that has operated in the past, though I'm sure I recall a small amount of work would need to be done on the Llanrwst loop before it could be used for passing trains again due to some sort of expired certification? Might be thinking of elsewhere, though.

You can't easily do 0.5tph clockface due to the location of the loop though. I've tried to work out a timetable for that in the past and couldn't.

The loop is at North Llanrwst isn't it? If so, a train every two hours looks perfectly acheivable to be if the loop was usable and you had two units - for example:

	Unit A	Unit B	Unit A	Unit B
Llandudno (town)	05:09	07:09	09:09	11:09
North Llanrwst arrive	05:45	07:45	09:45	11:45
North Llanrwst depart	05:50	07:50	09:50	11:50
Blaenau Ffestiniog	06:30	08:30	10:30	12:30
Blaenau Ffestiniog	07:05	09:05	11:05	13:05
North Llanrwst arrive	07:45	09:45	11:45	13:45
North Llanrwst depart	07:50	09:50	11:50	13:50
Llandudno (town)	08:26	10:26	12:26	14:26

The 35 or so minute layovers at each end might be a tad inefficient, but at least it gives a good chance to recover from any delays (or you could interwork with something else at the Llandudno end and maybe extend to(wards) Trawsfynydd at the other).

• Heart of Wales
• Fishguard

With the Conwy Valley I've often thought that having a think about the use cases and actually reducing by one round trip but with the remaining ones targetted to specific purposes would result in a more useful service than the present blind "every three hours" which only really suits leisure travel. I'm a big proponent of Takt but once you get under hourly it becomes a lot less useful.

I agree that blind adherence to 'Takt' is not always optimal. For example, when the Fishguard service was enhanced in 2011 some of the extra trains were timed to offer a 9-to-5 commute to/from Carmarthen. This required morning departures from Fishguard in the odd hours (ie. 07:56 reaching Carmarthen at around 08:45) but the return in the afternoon would require an arrival in Fishguard around 18:35 (even hour). Thus, while a train every two hours seems appropriate for the level of demand on-offer in Fishguard, having one three hour gap in the timetable in the early afternoon (after the boat train) could be helpful.

As for the Heart Of Wales, I can't see any potential for that as things stand. There's simply no way of providing a useful service without lots of 'dead' (effectively ECS) mileage without putting an overnight stabling point in the middle. I believe there is a siding at Llandrindod where the stock for the Royal Welsh Show Specials sits during the day. If you could stick two units in there overnight (one for Shrewsbury the other for Swansea and open a crew depot the station it might be possible to do something a bit more sensible. It still wouldn't be 'Takt' though, since I would have a mix of fast through trains (basiclly calling only at the passing loop stations) and the following all-stations stoppers:

• morning commuter run Llandrindod to Swansea
  
• morning commuter run Llanwrtyd/Llandrindod to Shrewsbury (unit, locked out of use, attached behind the above for Llanwrtyd)
• 3 or 4 through trains each way
• late evening run Swansea to Llandrindod
• late evening run Shrewsbury to Llanwrtyd/Llandrindod (unit, locked out of use, attached behind the above for Llanwrtyd)

The majority of the smaller stations would therefore only see 4 or 5 trains per day, much as now, but the additional faster trains would provide a better service at the main stops.

 

[65477]

The problem with increasing the Reedham Yarmouth service would be that it probably requires The essy a reduction in the Acle service, so you need to solve two issues here. The easy answer is just that balance the hourly Norwich - Yarmouth service to 50% running each way.