Bikes, reservations and advance tickets

[Coolzac]

Hi everyone,

I've just been on the phone with Transport for Wales.

I have an advance ticket from Llandudno to Crewe, changing at Chester. The customer service representative booked me a bike reservation from Llandudno to Chester, but she said that the Chester to Crewe train was unreservable for the bike.

I asked ' If I cannot board with my bike on the train from Chester to Crewe I presume I would be able to board the next available service?' She said no, I would have to buy a new ticket.

I explained that this policy leaves me in a difficult position - how can I travel with a bike on an advance ticket then? She agreed the policy wasn't very good but said there was nothing she could do. She re-assured me that she had never heard of a case of anyone not let on with a bike.

Do all TOCs have this policy with advance tickets but unreservable bike spaces? I find it remarkable that I wouldn't be allowed to get on the next service if I was unable to board on my booked one.

 

[SargeNpton]

Many services do not have bicycle reservations (particularly suburban and local services), so it's just a matter of finding space for it when you board. The only problem being that if it is a busy train you may not be able to physically get it through the doors.

The local Chester-Crewe shuttles would seem to fall into that category - as it's unreservanble for both bicycles and passengers. If you are not travelling on that leg in a peak period then it shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise I'd guess that you would be allowed to board the next available local train.

 

[Coolzac]

Many services do not have bicycle reservations (particularly suburban and local services), so it's just a matter of finding space for it when you board. The only problem being that if it is a busy train you may not be able to physically get it through the doors.

The local Chester-Crewe shuttles would seem to fall into that category - as it's unreservanble for both bicycles and passengers. If you are not travelling on that leg in a peak period then it shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise I'd guess that you would be allowed to board the next available local train.

But this is the problem - the policy I was told is that I wouldn't be allowed to board the next train!

 

[CL395]

I would just board the next available service and explain to the guard the situation. If they try and charge you for a new ticket simply refuse.

 

[Benjwri]

But this is the problem - the policy I was told is that I wouldn't be allowed to board the next train!

In theory no you wouldn't be allowed to board the train, and they have to tell you that is the rule and it could well happen. However if you talk to the guard of the train before you board, and explain the situation, it's fairly likely they would let you board. Obvious if they said no you wouldn't be able to get on whatever, but that's better than waiting for them to come down and possibly issue a penalty fare or worse.

If they try and charge you for a new ticket simply refuse.

That is absolutely not the right thing to do in this situation. Firstly as mentioned above you should ask before you get on the train, as they are more likely to say yes, and there is no way you can be caught out by a particularly harsh guard. If they ask you to buy another ticket it isn't a choice, it's extremely harsh, but they are allowed to do so. If you refuse you're just going to make things worse for yourself, as technically by boarding without asking you have committed an offence.

 

[liamf656]

In theory no you wouldn't be allowed to board the train, and they have to tell you that is the rule and it could well happen. However if you talk to the guard of the train before you board, and explain the situation, it's fairly likely they would let you board. Obvious if they said no you wouldn't be able to get on whatever, but that's better than waiting for them to come down and possibly issue a penalty fare or worse.

That is absolutely not the right thing to do in this situation. Firstly as mentioned above you should ask before you get on the train, as they are more likely to say yes, and there is no way you can be caught out by a particularly harsh guard. If they ask you to buy another ticket it isn't a choice, it's extremely harsh, but they are allowed to do so. If you refuse you're just going to make things worse for yourself, as technically by boarding without asking you have committed an offence.

I echo this. The best way to go about this is to ask the guard prior to boarding as it shows to them that you made an attempt to board the correct service and that you are not intentionally trying to evade any fares

 

[Coolzac]

Thanks everyone.

I do find it very anti customer that I could attempt to board my booked service, be refused entry, and then to top off being delayed then be asked to pay an additional fare! I personally think that the policy should be changed.

 

[yorkie]

But this is the problem - the policy I was told is that I wouldn't be allowed to board the next train!

Unfortunately there are a not insignificant number if people working for/in the rail industry who, when they don't know the correct answer, simply guess, make something up, or believe someone else who has made it up.

You are allowed to board the next train.

From the internal KowledgeBase (iKB):

Q: What happens if a customer travelling with a bicycle has purchased an Advance ticket for a train on which cycles are permitted but cycle reservations are not possible and there is no room for the cycle on the booked train for the Advance ticket?

A: The customer is allowed to travel with the Advance ticket on the next train on which there is cycle space available. Or, if they choose to abandon their journey, the ticket is endorsed and they are exceptionally allowed a refund.

I would just board the next available service and explain to the guard the situation. If they try and charge you for a new ticket simply refuse.

Agreed

 

[Coolzac]

Unfortunately there are a not insignificant number if people working for/in the rail industry who, when they don't know the correct answer, simply guess, make something up, or believe someone else who has made it up.

You are allowed to board the next train.

From the internal KowledgeBase (iKB):




Agreed

Thanks Yorkie! I agree, as we've discussed before I hate when staff make up rules.

Is there a public source for the iKB that you have quoted? It would be great to be able to show this to a member of staff just in case.

 

[yorkie]

Just done a quick search, and the following is on the public NRE page at:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/cyclists.aspx

If you are travelling with a bike and have purchased an Advance ticket for a train on which bikes are permitted but bike reservations are not possible, and there is no room for the bike on the booked train for the Advance ticket, then you can travel on the next train with the same ticket on which there is a bike space available.

Edit: also see quote from the NRCoT below.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks Yorkie! I agree, as we've discussed before I hate when staff make up rules.

Is there a public source for the iKB that you have quoted? It would be great to be able to show this to a member of staff just in case.

NRCoT 22.2 refers:

If a cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent
accommodation for your cycle and you therefore decide not to travel you will be entitled to claim a refund under Condition 29 for your journey, without any administration charge.

To forestall the inevitable "ah, but" response I'll get from the usual suspects (ahem, Bletchleyite... ) - no, this doesn't explicitly say what happens if you don't have a reservation. And it doesn't explicitly say that the train company has to provide alternative accommodation for your bike.

But contracts always involve an interpretation of the intentions of the contracting parties. Why would they refer to a train company being unable to provide alternatives if there is no obligation to do so? I would say it is clear that there is an implied obligation to provide alternatives in the event of being unable to accommodate the bike, but unfortunately it has been left implicit rather than being explicitly spelled out. There are lots of issues like this all across the NRCoT.

That said, even if it were crystal clear - members of frontline staff are not going to be familiar with provisions of the NRCoT (many of them might not even know that such a document exists!). So if a guard (wrongly) tells you that you need to pay again, you are unlikely to convince them otherwise by quoting a particular condition. It would likely be a situation whereby if they insist, the best course of action is to pay up and then reclaim it afterwards.

 

[Coolzac]

I have written to TFW:

Dear TFW,

I made a bike reservation for a couple of journeys yesterday with you over the phone. The customer service representative, ********, who dealt with me was pleasant- however unfortunately she gave me some incorrect advice. One of my journeys is 15.44 LLD - CRE on Wednesday 7th September. I have an advance ticket for this journey. The first leg from Llandudno to Chester has the option of reserving a bike space, which I have done, but the second leg from Chester to Crewe doesn't have an option to reserve a bike space. That's fine- except for the fact I asked your customer service representative that if I was refused boarding on the second leg due to no bike space being available, I would be allowed to travel on the next available service even though I had an advance ticket. She said no, I would have to buy a new ticket. I gently challenged this, confused as it seemed strange that I could be refused travel AND forced to buy a new ticket. She confirmed this was the policy, though in fairness at least she re-assured me that she had never heard of someone being refused onto a train with a bike.

I have since researched this issue myself, and your customer service representative was wrong. If I am refused boarding with a bike when there is no reservable bike space, I am allowed to board the next service, even if I have an advance ticket. It states this very clearly on the national rail website: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/cyclists.aspx#plan
If you read condition 29 in the NRCoT it will say basically the same thing.

My question to you is- is this a case of an individual making a mistake, or does TFW have a policy that is incongruent with the NRCoT? Whilst I bear no ill will towards your customer representative, it does frustrate me that a lot of the time your staff, if faced with an issue they don't know about, seem to make up their own rules rather than say 'I don't know that, i'll double check and get back to you'. And their interpretation of the rules often is the anti customer option!

I look forward to hearing your reply.

Kind regards,

***********


Let's see what they say!

 

[gray1404]

You your bike and your tickets are unequivocally valid on the next train in the event that you cannot board your connection with your bicycle. You were given incorrect information.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened to enable @Coolzac to post an update

 

[Coolzac]

Thanks Yorkie,

I've finally had a response from TFW, unbelievably it took them 7 months to respond!

I won't copy the whole email, but the important part of the reply is this:

'I was sorry to read your comments regarding the advice you were provided with concerning the use of your Advance ticket on an alternative service, should you be unable to board with your bicycle.

Having looked over the links you have provided, I have been unable to conclude that this is permitted. However, please be assured that I have referred your comments to our Retail Team for further investigation. Once I have received a response, I will update you further.'

I find it remarkable that despite the evidence I provided in my email, they still refuse to accept this.

Where should I go next in my response?

 

[yorkie]

Where should I go next in my response?

You could try contacting Transport Focus?

It's not really an Ombudsman issue as this is more of a policy matter and they don't seem to deal with that issue (the Ombudsman is useless anyway)

I've tweeted TfW

https://twitter.com/RailUKForums/status/1638306506247483397

@tfwrail https://railforums.co.uk/threads/bikes-reservations-and-advance-tickets.236235/ can TfW please re-issue the response to your customer, which contained incorrect information regarding ticket validity in the event of cycle spaces not being available.

Another option is to write to Barry Doe; he may well publish this in Rail magazine.

Incorrect information is so common these days I tend to expect it; it's not a surprise at all. There are insufficient safeguards to protect customers against being mistreated and/or mislead. I see no evidence any safeguards will ever be forthcoming; this sort of thing isn't a priority for the rail industry.

 

[Coolzac]

I have just had a letter from TFW.

They have finally admitted that the advice over the phone, and then the initial response to my query was wrong- if I am unable to board with my bike, where a cycle reservation isn't possible or not honoured, I can board the next available services to complete my journey with an advance ticket.

They have also attached £10 in rail vouchers as an apology for both the time taken and the wrong advice I have been given.

Whilst it is bad that it's taken this long and this many people to achieve basic customer service, I'm happy that they've finally corrected things. However I feel like I should keep a copy of this letter in case of future problems with my bike on the railway!

 

[fandroid]

I have just had a letter from TFW.

They have finally admitted that the advice over the phone, and then the initial response to my query was wrong- if I am unable to board with my bike, where a cycle reservation isn't possible or not honoured, I can board the next available services to complete my journey with an advance ticket.

They have also attached £10 in rail vouchers as an apology for both the time taken and the wrong advice I have been given.

Whilst it is bad that it's taken this long and this many people to achieve basic customer service, I'm happy that they've finally corrected things. However I feel like I should keep a copy of this letter in case of future problems with my bike on the railway!

I still think it's worth you writing to Barry Doe at Rail Magazine, describing the sorry saga. It's just the sort of thing he likes to highlight in his column, and it would publicise the rights of cyclists rather wider than this forum could.