Blackwater Valley (Farnborough/Aldershot/Camberley/Farnham area) my idea future rail

[The Ham]

Given the Blackwater Valley area has a population comparable to Milton Keynes or Plymouth how much of the following is (even allowing for it being in the future) totally crazy and how much could possibly see the light of day (even if it may later).

It is 2035 and here is a summary of rail service improvements since 2015:

After the introduction of Crossrail 2 it was found that there was insufficient capacity to run more services direct to Southampton, as such services were set to run Via Salisbury (which added 20 minutes vs the direct service) these were paired with services to Plymouth at Salisbury (1tph) these were then extended to Portsmouth to supplement the Portsmouth to Southampton services. Addition advantages where that it gave some relief to the Cardiff Portsmouth services and gave Romsey a direct service to London. Although few people used it to go between London and places beyond Romsey (although some do as from some of the more minor stations the time benefit of changing was minimal whilst others used it as they were more likely to get a seat) it was well used to get to the south coast from Farnborough and stations west of Basingstoke.

The WofE line was mostly redoubled (some tunnels were kept as single tracks) and electrified (as were all stations south of the M4 and west of Plymouth, to avoid the need for micro fleets of DMU's). The line Via Okehampton was opened and has services from London Waterloo (2tph) using it (not that many travel that way from London, but there were a significant flow from various places which could connect easily with the service compared with getting to Reading and changing). Following the electrification of Bath - Salisbury half of one of the two trains per hour runs Salisbury to Bristol which further relieved capacity on the Cardiff Portsmouth services (half of the other service goes to Portsmouth as listed above).

Following the electrification to Salisbury the Basingstoke stopping service was extended to Salisbury to provide more capacity for the local stations and a better interchange between stations in North Hampshire.

A grade separated junction at Frimley was built to provide local services which could run between Frimley and Farnborough Stations, mostly so that passengers from Camberley had a improved journey time to London. This allowed a service to run Ascot Basingstoke which also allowed some locations (Watchmoor Park, Southwood and Fleet West) to gain a station. Although there are no direct trains to London these stations were well used as with a simple change at Farnborough (Main) there are fast services (some direct) to Waterloo. This means that even with a change it is quicker than if the Basingstoke stoppers were to call at these stations. They also provide an interchange with services to the south and west which further increases the use of these stations.

There are fairly reasonable local flows of passengers on the Ascot Basingstoke services due to the key employment centres at Watchmoor Park and Southwood (beyond that located near the historic stations), as well as the attractiveness to College students studying at Farnborough or Basingstoke.

It also allowed one service every two hours run by the XC franchise to call at Farnborough (having run via a reverse at Ascot) as this enabled many on the SWML to use it to head north on a direct service from Farnborough rather than change to get to Reading and then change at Reading. To accommodate this a new (central) siding was provided at Winchfield to allow a reverse of direction without impacting on the main lines too much. Some early morning/evening services extend to Basingstoke to provide for route knowledge for diversions when the Reading Basingstoke line is closed.

It also allowed Ascot Frimley to see an increase in frequency in services without needing to spend money trying to double the line to Aldershot. Following the introduction of a second train per hour between Farnham Guildford the number of through services to Guildford from Ascot was halved so as to only provide 3tph between Aldershot and Guildford.

When Farnham gained its service to Guildford, to begin with this was to platform 3 (a new platform to the east of the level crossing so it could arrive as the London train left to minimise the length of time the barriers were down for) however when the Alton services went to 3tph post Crossrail 2 the level crossing was closed and a new grade separate junction with the over bridge and the A31 was created and the existing signal junction removed. The trains to Alton/Borden are formed of at least a pair of units with one unit going to Borden and the other one or two going to Alton.

The Reading Gatwick line was electrified and a programme if platform lengthening occurred resulting in scope for 8 coach trains at key stations (ASDO is used at stations which did not see significant passenger numbers to justify platform lengthening). At least 1tph is extended to Oxford and has the fewest station stops along the line (although West and North of Reading it basically becomes a stopping service). There has been talk of extending it further to Leamington Spa so that passengers can connect to West Midlands services without having to change at Oxford and Banbury.

A new station was provided at Farnborough Gate (near Frimley station) on the Reading Guildford line to provide a better interchange between the two lines. It also provided a station for the retail park and business park which are the main drivers for passenger demand at this station. It only sees 1tph but has reasonable passenger flows, especially at peak hours and at weekends.

A northern entrance to Farnborough Main has been provided to shorten the walk distance to the Sixth Form College.

There is talk that Farnborough Main may get its central platforms back if a new line to connect the south coast (chiefly Southampton) and London and/or to serve Wales and West is/are built, as there would be less long distance demand beyond Basingstoke which would make Farnborough (Main) a more key station.

This resulted in the following services calling in the Blackwater Valley:
4tph (Oxford) Reading - Gatwick
2tph Ascot - Aldershot (Guildford)
2tph Farnham - Guildford
3tph Waterloo - Alton/Borden
3tph Waterloo - Salisbury (was Basingstoke)
1tph Waterloo - Southampton/Weymouth
1tph Waterloo - Portsmouth (Via Basingstoke)
2tph Waterloo - Plymouth (splits at Salisbury with one unit going to Portsmouth or Bristol)
2tph Ascot - Basingstoke
0.5tph (XC) (Basingstoke) Farnborough to Newcastle (via Ascot)

 

[greaterwest]

Given the Blackwater Valley area has a population comparable to Milton Keynes or Plymouth how much of the following is (even allowing for it being in the future) totally crazy and how much could possibly see the light of day (even if it may later).

It is 2035 and here is a summary of rail service improvements since 2015:

After the introduction of Crossrail 2 it was found that there was insufficient capacity to run more services direct to Southampton, as such services were set to run Via Salisbury (which added 20 minutes vs the direct service) these were paired with services to Plymouth at Salisbury (1tph) these were then extended to Portsmouth to supplement the Portsmouth to Southampton services. Addition advantages where that it gave some relief to the Cardiff Portsmouth services and gave Romsey a direct service to London. Although few people used it to go between London and places beyond Romsey (although some do as from some of the more minor stations the time benefit of changing was minimal whilst others used it as they were more likely to get a seat) it was well used to get to the south coast from Farnborough and stations west of Basingstoke.

Why do Portsmouth, Southampton and WoE services need to divide anywhere?
Why do they need to go via Salisbury?
How badly will Crossrail 2 services affect the SWML?

The WofE line was mostly redoubled (some tunnels were kept as single tracks) and electrified (as were all stations south of the M4 and west of Plymouth, to avoid the need for micro fleets of DMU's). The line Via Okehampton was opened and has services from London Waterloo (2tph) using it (not that many travel that way from London, but there were a significant flow from various places which could connect easily with the service compared with getting to Reading and changing). Following the electrification of Bath - Salisbury half of one of the two trains per hour runs Salisbury to Bristol which further relieved capacity on the Cardiff Portsmouth services (half of the other service goes to Portsmouth as listed above).

While I don't deny that there is the possibility of the electrification of the WoE line in the next 20 years, they aren't going to put juice rails all the way down to Plymouth. Okehampton to Bere Alston may indeed see a reopening but it won't be electrified. Remember SWT's franchise commitments, they withdrew their far West services many years ago and Great Western Railway will have their bi-modes operating there by then.

A grade separated junction at Frimley was built to provide local services which could run between Frimley and Farnborough Stations, mostly so that passengers from Camberley had a improved journey time to London. This allowed a service to run Ascot Basingstoke which also allowed some locations (Watchmoor Park, Southwood and Fleet West) to gain a station. Although there are no direct trains to London these stations were well used as with a simple change at Farnborough (Main) there are fast services (some direct) to Waterloo. This means that even with a change it is quicker than if the Basingstoke stoppers were to call at these stations. They also provide an interchange with services to the south and west which further increases the use of these stations.

The Aldershot & Farnborough area has a large network of buses; why on earth would you want to build three more stations in said area?

A "simple change" at Ascot can get people to London, likewise at Aldershot or even Guildford.

There are fairly reasonable local flows of passengers on the Ascot Basingstoke services due to the key employment centres at Watchmoor Park and Southwood (beyond that located near the historic stations), as well as the attractiveness to College students studying at Farnborough or Basingstoke.

It also allowed one service every two hours run by the XC franchise to call at Farnborough (having run via a reverse at Ascot) as this enabled many on the SWML to use it to head north on a direct service from Farnborough rather than change to get to Reading and then change at Reading. To accommodate this a new (central) siding was provided at Winchfield to allow a reverse of direction without impacting on the main lines too much. Some early morning/evening services extend to Basingstoke to provide for route knowledge for diversions when the Reading Basingstoke line is closed.

This is the worst idea I have heard since someone suggested running XC services to Gatwick, calling only at Farnborough North, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene and Redhill. People at Farnborough / Ascot can change at Basingstoke / Reading respectively for XC.

It also allowed Ascot Frimley to see an increase in frequency in services without needing to spend money trying to double the line to Aldershot. Following the introduction of a second train per hour between Farnham Guildford the number of through services to Guildford from Ascot was halved so as to only provide 3tph between Aldershot and Guildford.

Why does the Ascot to Aldershot line need another train per hour? 2tph is enough in this day and age. It hasn't been 2tph for long either if I remember correctly.

When Farnham gained its service to Guildford, to begin with this was to platform 3 (a new platform to the east of the level crossing so it could arrive as the London train left to minimise the length of time the barriers were down for) however when the Alton services went to 3tph post Crossrail 2 the level crossing was closed and a new grade separate junction with the over bridge and the A31 was created and the existing signal junction removed. The trains to Alton/Borden are formed of at least a pair of units with one unit going to Borden and the other one or two going to Alton.

Why does Farnham need a service to Guildford? Where will the extra paths (and presumably the extra unit) come from to work the Ascot to Guildford line? What about people at Alton who want to get to Guildford?

Trains to Bordon* will never be reinstated, and if you read up about it you will see that it branched off from Liss, and not Farnham.

The Reading Gatwick line was electrified and a programme if platform lengthening occurred resulting in scope for 8 coach trains at key stations (ASDO is used at stations which did not see significant passenger numbers to justify platform lengthening). At least 1tph is extended to Oxford and has the fewest station stops along the line (although West and North of Reading it basically becomes a stopping service). There has been talk of extending it further to Leamington Spa so that passengers can connect to West Midlands services without having to change at Oxford and Banbury.

Gatwicks will never be extended past Oxford, why should they be in any case? People for the West Mids can already change at Reading for XC, you'd be on the train for a reasonable amount of time in any case.

A new station was provided at Farnborough Gate (near Frimley station) on the Reading Guildford line to provide a better interchange between the two lines. It also provided a station for the retail park and business park which are the main drivers for passenger demand at this station. It only sees 1tph but has reasonable passenger flows, especially at peak hours and at weekends.

Do you have a source for people actually wanting a station on the retail park? Is 1tph worth the new station when your idea seems to be that the Reading to Gatwick line has 4tph?

There is talk that Farnborough Main may get its central platforms back if a new line to connect the south coast (chiefly Southampton) and London and/or to serve Wales and West is/are built, as there would be less long distance demand beyond Basingstoke which would make Farnborough (Main) a more key station.

Why would you want a direct service to Wales from Farnborough? Again, paths and units are going to be a problem (no electrification Salisbury - Westbury - Bath, you'll need DMUs)
Change at Basingstoke and Salisbury (or Reading)

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail 2 is supposed to provide 7 extra long distance paths, amongst which will be extra trains to Southampton, Salisbury etc. The Wessex route study last year proposes 4 tph to Southampton via Winchester, and 2 tph to Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Presumably they reckon they can be pathed somehow?

These sort of fantasy threads surely confuse the issues, perhaps the thread title could make it clearer that it is a personal idea rather than based on published proposals?

 

[greaterwest]

These sort of fantasy threads surely confuse the issues, perhaps the thread title could make it clearer that it is a personal idea rather than based on published proposals?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Some points (in no particular order):

1. Bordon was actually reached BOTH ways from Bentley & from Liss via the Longmoor Military Railway (The same system that was in the St Trinian's Great Train Robbery), which has largely been obliterated at Longmoor by the A3 dual carriageway.

2. ICXC used to call at North Camp on the 1346 FO Portsmouth - Leeds, never called anywhere else before Reading IIRC.

3. The Sturt Lane junction should never be reinstated because it would cause too many conflicts on the mainline, the route towards the North Downs line could never be reinstated because the dual carriageway A331 Blackwater Valley has obliterated the formation of the link.

However if you wanted to pacify the generally gormless Camberley Society who want the cheaper houses, but also want the short journey times, you could always create a curve at Ash Vale to link it into the Alton line, with only a ½ hourly service it would avoid any conflicts on the mainline.

4. Guildford - Ascot service is ponderously slow, it now generally takes an hour both ways & requires 5 "sets" to operate until 2000, when it drops to hourly between Aldershot & Ascot. You could easily run it with 5 x 2 car trains outside of the peak periods, it's that quiet, it doesn't need any more services.

As for going Guildford - Farnham as a through service, no need there's a simple 3' connection at Aldershot both ways, so that renders that idea a non starter, even though the signalling since the recontrol scheme can take trains at approx 4' intervals to Farnham.

5. North Downs won't be electrified at least not in my working lifetime, it's not connected with anything London (Not Londoncentric enough) to justify it, it needs to be completely resignalled & many sections relaid to bring it up to standard, we've seen mass rationalisation in the late 70's & early 80's and it's never been any good since, especially since the Western took it over, it'll be interesting to see how well it runs when GWR try to run 3 tph when they have extreme difficulty running 2 on time.

 

[Paul180]

1. Bordon was actually reached BOTH ways from Bentley & from Liss via the Longmoor Military Railway (The same system that was in the St Trinian's Great Train Robbery), which has largely been obliterated at Longmoor by the A3 dual carriageway.

Just to be pedantic as a civvie you went from Bentley, If you were in the army you went from Bentley and Liss when they built the link down to Liss in the 1930s but that was not connected to the mainline until the last war I Bentley to Bordon was shut in the late 1950s

So if Bordon was to reopen it would probably go to Bentley but I can not see it happening even with all the new house they are building in Bordon.

Cranleigh has a same problem but I can not see the old railway reopen there either.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Just to be pedantic as a civvie you went from Bentley, If you were in the army you went from Bentley and Liss when they built the link down to Liss in the 1930s but that was not connected to the mainline until the last war I Bentley to Bordon was shut in the late 1950s

So if Bordon was to reopen it would probably go to Bentley but I can not see it happening even with all the new house they are building in Bordon.

Cranleigh has a same problem but I can not see the old railway reopen there either.

Cranleigh is only being stopped by the Bramley mob & the "influential" people of Linnersh Wood, who make surreptitious threats to those in the council & in local government.

As it was pointed out in numerous occasions, the Bramley residents are forever whinging & whining about the traffic levels, noise, pollution & accident rate on the A281, yet when offered the opportunity to have the railway back which would help alleviate all of the above, they go, well we'll just have more buses then, buses that run around with large amounts of fresh air in them all day long!

This is the same mob that are quite content to drive a mile or so to Shalford and damage the local green & park everywhere so no one can stop to do their business at the local PO or even park outside their own house in Station Road!

They're a bit like cuckoo's, in that they don't do it in their own nest!

Cranleigh REALLY does need to happen, with the potential for over 3,000 new homes, both the A281 & A3100 will be absolute nightmares!

 

[30909]

Just to be pedantic as a civvie you went from Bentley, If you were in the army you went from Bentley and Liss when they built the link down to Liss in the 1930s but that was not connected to the mainline until the last war I Bentley to Bordon was shut in the late 1950s

So if Bordon was to reopen it would probably go to Bentley but I can not see it happening even with all the new house they are building in Bordon.

Cranleigh has a same problem but I can not see the old railway reopen there either.

The Bordon line puzzles me, the plan to increase the housing and population of Bordon & Whitehill by up to 5000 homes cries out for a railway rather than a journey very few take to Liphook for the 1tph off peak Portsmouth Direct stoppers or to Farnham, via the notorious A325, with no where to park when you get there.
In 2009, the Association of Train Operating Companies proposed reinstating a rail link with the town, and a feasibility study, concluded in February 2012, was undertaken. The outcome of this study resulted in a proposed link to the existing Alton Line at Bentley with an estimated cost of £170m.
It would be easier to build/reinstate than Cranleigh as there is next to no property issues on the old alignment and it would be possible to bring the Bordon terminus closer to the centre of town using some redundant SEME land. There is only one significant road to cross, the B3004 Sleaford (Bordon) to Alton, all the others are very minor with the possible exception of Blackwater Road near Bentley.
As the town grows, even without the "Eco Town" the pressure on local transport infrastructure is reaching breaking point, bus companies can not make routes pay without subsidy so, at this time, Car is King

 

[alastair]

Some points (in no particular order):
m.

5. North Downs won't be electrified at least not in my working lifetime, it's not connected with anything London (Not Londoncentric enough) to justify it, it needs to be completely resignalled & many sections relaid to bring it up to standard, we've seen mass rationalisation in the late 70's & early 80's and it's never been any good since, especially since the Western took it over, it'll be interesting to see how well it runs when GWR try to run 3 tph when they have extreme difficulty running 2 on time.

Are you sure about that "mass rationalisation"? My recollection,from using this line regularly in the late 60's/early 70's was that the trains ran from Reading to Tonbridge,at best hourly,and were very slow calling at virtually all stations.operated by the "Tadpole" units. In the 1980's,a superior,much faster, semi-fast service from Reading to Gatwick,operated normally by cross-country dmu's (class 119?) was introduced which was a great improvement.

As for it "not being any good since" ,well I use it pretty often and have few problems. There must surely be record numbers using it these days? With the vast majority of stations being unstaffed, I do think that guards could work much harder to collect fares/check tickets.OK,I know Reading and Guildford are barriered but there must be loads of fares uncollected,particularly in the evenings.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Are you sure about that "mass rationalisation"? My recollection,from using this line regularly in the late 60's/early 70's was that the trains ran from Reading to Tonbridge,at best hourly,and were very slow calling at virtually all stations.operated by the "Tadpole" units. In the 1980's,a superior,much faster, semi-fast service from Reading to Gatwick,operated normally by cross-country dmu's (class 119?) was introduced which was a great improvement.

As for it "not being any good since" ,well I use it pretty often and have few problems. There must surely be record numbers using it these days? With the vast majority of stations being unstaffed, I do think that guards could work much harder to collect fares/check tickets.OK,I know Reading and Guildford are barriered but there must be loads of fares uncollected,particularly in the evenings.

They replaced the Taddies with the WR's stink bombs or smoke bombs as they were known, slow & whilst they were relatively comfortable, it was the WR which slaughtered the local service.

All they were interested in was Gatwick, never mind the people who used the smaller intermediate stations between Guildford & Redhill, they were irrelevant.

The rationalisation of the signalling resulted in the closure of Chilworth, Gomshall & Betchworth boxes and the introduction of colour light signalling with some very long sections instead, which didn't allow for any improvements in service.

When they ran the Portsmouth ICXC services were always catching them up and waiting a good 5 minutes or more at Blackwater, waiting for the preceding service to reach Wokingham and in the other direction it was wait at either WM502 or WM530 for the preceding train to get to Blackwater or North Camp respectively.

Thames, FGW & now GWR have constantly failed to provide a decent level of service on this line and I can't wait to see what chaos will ensue when they try to expand the current 2tph to 3!

Will I be able to use my local station to get into work? I severely doubt it.

 

[JonathanH]

Are you sure about that "mass rationalisation"? My recollection,from using this line regularly in the late 60's/early 70's was that the trains ran from Reading to Tonbridge,at best hourly,and were very slow calling at virtually all stations.operated by the "Tadpole" units. In the 1980's,a superior,much faster, semi-fast service from Reading to Gatwick,operated normally by cross-country dmu's (class 119?) was introduced which was a great improvement.

As for it "not being any good since" ,well I use it pretty often and have few problems. There must surely be record numbers using it these days? With the vast majority of stations being unstaffed, I do think that guards could work much harder to collect fares/check tickets.OK,I know Reading and Guildford are barriered but there must be loads of fares uncollected,particularly in the evenings.

Yes, there was mass rationalisation - the signal sections are really long. Have you ever travelled on the line in times of disruption? In the Reading direction, if you get too close to the train in front, you soon know where the signals with long headways are, there is one on the hill out of Dorking, another at Gomshall, one between North Camp and Farnborough North and, worst of all, just after Blackwater which doesn't clear until the train in front has got to Wokingham.

It will be very interesting to see how the weekday 3tph service on the line is pathed.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Err, I hate to break this to you, but I used to work over the line!

And when it goes wrong, boy does it go wrong! My colleagues who use it from Dorking, regularly have to run down to Dorking Main (North), catch a train to Leatherhead and then run over to catch the train into work, because GWR made the train miss Deepdene.

I can also get access to Tyrell, so I can see what's what on that line and the sheer number of delays and missed stops due to delays is incredible. I've got a pass for the line, I can't use it because of the poor service reliability & poor service in general.

It sickens me to think what the service was like under the auspices of the SW division of BR, compared to the WR's idea of what constitutes a service.

 

[Paul180]

Cranleigh is only being stopped by the Bramley mob & the "influential" people of Linnersh Wood, who make surreptitious threats to those in the council & in local government.

As it was pointed out in numerous occasions, the Bramley residents are forever whinging & whining about the traffic levels, noise, pollution & accident rate on the A281, yet when offered the opportunity to have the railway back which would help alleviate all of the above, they go, well we'll just have more buses then, buses that run around with large amounts of fresh air in them all day long!

This is the same mob that are quite content to drive a mile or so to Shalford and damage the local green & park everywhere so no one can stop to do their business at the local PO or even park outside their own house in Station Road!

They're a bit like cuckoo's, in that they don't do it in their own nest!

Cranleigh REALLY does need to happen, with the potential for over 3,000 new homes, both the A281 & A3100 will be absolute nightmares!

I just do not get why they can build or propose the eco towns without a rail link and it would be relatively easy to reinstate between Bentley to Bordon rail link and it should be part of the development but I suppose funding is just one of the issues.

I just do not get why they can build or propose the eco towns without a rail link and it would be relatively easy to reinstate between Bentley to Bordon rail link and it should be part of the development but I suppose funding is just one of the issues.

I totally agree that Cranleigh is dying out for the railway to be reinstated and it angers me that a small number people can make it difficult to happen and it would make life easier for everyone else.

No I don't have a problem with one of you posts it just me being pedantic

 

[The Ham]

A few items of clarification,

This thought process is based on the possibility that in 20 years time (assuming a growth rate of 3.5% per year) that we could be looking at the network as a whole having double the number of passengers. However with limited capacity to run more seats towards London TOC's would need to look to other services to increase their passenger numbers.

They would also likely need to look at more minor stations to feed into the existing stations as otherwise they would need to build large car parks and lots of cycle parking to accommodate the extra passengers arriving at the stations. As there are limits on how many can walk/catch buses.

On an individual service a doubling of people could mean that a 221 which is full and standing (cira 265 people, all standard seats full most first class seats and 3 people per doorway standing) could justify something like a 10 coach 444 (768 seats) as there could be circa 530 people.

Also as passenger flows increase routes which were not heavy enough to justify their own service start to do so. For instance if at privatisation there were 20 people an hour doing a journey between 2 stations, that now could be 40 and in 20 years time that could be 80 people an hour. Then add to that if the route isn't straightforward (say a long change or doubling back on yourself or an infrequent service) and then such a service could be worth considering especially if it benefits other stations and requires little investment beyond rolling stock.

Finally the junction at Frimley is west facing (I.e. away from London) and is grade separated so results in no crossing of the SWML on the flat (I.e. to get from Frimley to Farnborough it goes under the SWML then joins the slows on the westbound lines, while going the other way it leaves the east bound slows and loops to the Frimley line). I am not proposing a direct service to London from Camberley as there would be no paths for that. Rather passengers change at Farnborough Main, which although still requires a change is quicker than changing at the existing station options and provides lifts to assist with the change.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In response to a few comments made:

WofE services currently split at Salisbury, with most using part if the train to form the next train back to London. Some however go to Bristol, this proposal increases this service to hourly.

Although there could be some more services between Basingstoke and Southampton there is a limit. Some of the services may be run by XC, some maybe freight and some could be London bound services. Although London to Portsmouth via Salisbury is far from the most direct route it would provide a service which avoided the need to change and is more to do linking up what would be difficult to make journeys. However there could be some who use it as they are more likely to get a seat.

20 years to reopen and electrify the route through Okehampton is probably a long shot, however if the Devon metro services are electrified then the gap gets smaller and the justification to electrify gets better.

London has a good network of buses, possibly the best in the country should we not look at new rail links there either? I've always taken the view that if there is proven use of public transport that more public transport maybe a good idea. Also, although bus travel is good on certain corridors it's not always useful, nor does it always connect with all the stations.

A simple charge at existing stations does get you to London, but changing at Farnborough would be quicker and has lifts unlike the others (Guildford does have a ramped underpass) which would help those with mobility issues, buggies, heavy luggage, etc.

XC service was a fairly crazy suggestion, but one service a day (akin to Guildford) could provide useful diversionary route knowledge.

If rail passenger growth increases by 3.5% per year we could have double the number of passengers that we have now, as such 3tph is probably not that crazy on a line that is too well used for 1tph but rather quiet with 2tph at present.

Although travel from Farnham to Guildford is fairly painless, however Guildford to Farnham according to the rail planners generally take between 40 and 55 minutes when you are on the train for about 22 minutes.

Passengers from Alton wouldn't be as numerous as those from Farnham, however their journey time would be no worse than at present.

A report was undertaken into reinstating the line to Borden (including light rail options) their conclusion was that going North (to connect at Bentley) was the best value option. This was in connection with the new Eco Town that is proposed.

Oxford Gatwick was just picking up what others have suggested. If Gatwick gets a second runway then it having better connections will probably be needed. Again the suggestion of an extension beyond Oxford was another slightly out there suggestion

It's not just the retail park (that's just a bonus) there's a business park and housing not that far away. While there are reasonable connections to Frimley and less so to Farnborough Main station (utilising a bus connection) to get there form the Reading Guildford line would require quite a significant walk (even if connecting with a bus)

The new lines serving Wales and West wouldn't need to go via Farnborough, rather it could result in less passengers using the line coming through Salisbury.

 

[FenMan]

The Aldershot & Farnborough area has a large network of buses; why on earth would you want to build three more stations in said area?

Hmm . . .

Yes, the Camberley - Farnborough - Aldershot spine is superserved by Stagecoach, but pretty much all the other buses are safely tucked away in the depot by 6:30pm.

An example of the shockingly poor service level offering from Stagecoach: Yateley, a town on the northern edge of the conurbation with a population of 20,000, is "superserved" on Sundays with a bus departure every two hours from 10:30 to 18:30. So, five buses. Pathetic.

 

[fandroid]

As someone who grew up in Gomshall, and visited parents there for many years after, I can assure folk here that the passenger numbers using the local stations east of Guildford were always extremely thin. I would have loved a more frequent stopping service but it could never wash its face. Just be grateful that those stations were on Beeching' s list, but still survived somehow.

Blackwater Valley is fairly well served by rail. The history has left a slightly bizarre set of lines, but it's probably got a better overall set of rail services than lots of similar conglomerations of towns up and down the country. Farnborough Main has had a sadly sparce service on Sundays, but even that is supposed to be getting better.

 

[The Ham]

Blackwater Valley is fairly well served by rail. The history has left a slightly bizarre set of lines, but it's probably got a better overall set of rail services than lots of similar conglomerations of towns up and down the country. Farnborough Main has had a sadly sparce service on Sundays, but even that is supposed to be getting better.

I am not denying that it is served well by rail, my suggestions are based on what may happen if rail passenger numbers double in the next 20 years like they have in the last 20.

Interestingly Farnborough North (666,162) now sees more passengers than Blackwater (507,298) or North Camp (411,7041), even though historically Farnborough North is seen as the quieter station which is seen by the hourly off peak service to Farnborough North compared with the half hourly services to the other two.

Farnborough Main has got a better late afternoon/early evening service on a Sunday where there are three trains an hour, although there can be as few as 1tph earlier in the day.

 

[34087]

Hmm . . .

Yes, the Camberley - Farnborough - Aldershot spine is superserved by Stagecoach, but pretty much all the other buses are safely tucked away in the depot by 6:30pm.

An example of the shockingly poor service level offering from Stagecoach: Yateley, a town on the northern edge of the conurbation with a population of 20,000, is "superserved" on Sundays with a bus departure every two hours from 10:30 to 18:30. So, five buses. Pathetic.

Yateley's main claims to fame are that it is the largest town in Hampshire without a railway station and it was mentioned by David Brent in an episode The Office

I thought about applying for a senior bus pass but when I looked at what was on offer, in relation to journeys to Farnborough Main or Blackwater, for leisure and occasional business journeys, the time involved and poor evening services dissuaded me. So even at zero cost the bus service is unattractive.

A northern pedestrian entrance for Farnborough Main would seem to be a good idea.

Something very strange about Farnborough North useage figures at 600k plus pa. According to Wiki it jumped from a steady 300-350k pa up to 2011/12 to600k plus in 2012/13 and subsequently. Answers anyone ?

Farnborough Gate would be so near Farnborough North that you could hardly have both. Similar distances to F'boro Sixth Form College but F'boro North users walking from Frimley Green might not be too keen if F'boro Gate replaced it.

Any Camberley proposals are ludicrous. Ever since F'boro Main went 4tph to Waterloo with two fast and the Blackwater Valley Road took a lot of through traffic off local roads, it has been the railhead for the area.

Like others I'm reasonably happy with services in the area for Guildford, Gatwick/Brighton, Reading and occasionally the Richmond route, changing at Wokingham and Fleet or Farnborough Main for the SWML

Blackwater to Portsmouth and Southsea this Saturday is an absolute shocker at 1hr 37min. You can get to Brighton in 1hr 33min

The main benefit for the area would be trains to Heathrow.

 

[swt_passenger]

Something very strange about Farnborough North useage figures at 600k plus pa. According to Wiki it jumped from a steady 300-350k pa up to 2011/12 to600k plus in 2012/13 and subsequently. Answers anyone ?

Answer is in the 2012/13 methodology report on ORR's website. It is the usual reason, improved analysis based on counts of specific stations within fares groups, there's a list of a couple of dozen of them included in Table 3.4. In this case Farnborough Stations is the fares group, and Farnborough North went up 88%, Main went down 9%.

Link added as I'm able to search easier this morning: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/10786/station-usage-2012-13.pdf

 

[The Ham]

Farnborough Gate would be so near Farnborough North that you could hardly have both. Similar distances to F'boro Sixth Form College but F'boro North users walking from Frimley Green might not be too keen if F'boro Gate replaced it.

If there were 4tph on the line you could have 1tph semi fast +missing both stations 2tph calling at Farnborough North and 1tph calling at Farnborough Gate. The distance to the college is slightly shorter from Farnborough Gate but not enough that people would travel past Farnborough North to get off there instead. However, there is a reasonable amount to justify a station there in its own right. For those wanting to get to Frimley from Blackwater it would make it viable to use public transport.

Any Camberley proposals are ludicrous. Ever since F'boro Main went 4tph to Waterloo with two fast and the Blackwater Valley Road took a lot of through traffic off local roads, it has been the railhead for the area.

However Farnborough being the local rail hub is the point, yes there is a new decked car park but how long will it be before that starts to get full? Likewise, many people would find it cheaper to use a train to get there than drive (fuel, parking and possibly even car ownership costs could be saved).

Also, if you are going further afield and needing to change at Basingstoke, then a direct service from Camberley to Basingstoke and then change would be more attractive than drive to Farnborough train to Basingstoke and then change.

Also, although road numbers aren't going up the roads through Farnborough can get very busy. Even just a small reduction in traffic can make a big difference (schools traffic accounts for 10% of morning peak got traffic, yet notice the difference during the holidays). If roads become quieter then more people would be likely to consider cycling, if they do then you could see a lot more cyclists as the more that cycle and use trains the quieter the roads and the more who will consider cycling.

Like others I'm reasonably happy with services in the area for Guildford, Gatwick/Brighton, Reading and occasionally the Richmond route, changing at Wokingham and Fleet or Farnborough Main for the SWML

The problem is not really the links from within the Blackwater Valley, it's more to do with those just outside of it. For instance Bagshot to Basingstoke, Woking to Ascot or Bracknell, Fleet to Reading, Basingstoke to Aldershot or Ash. All of which "can" be done by rail but are not easy or quick and therefore tend to be expensive.

With better interchange opportunities then there could be a significant growth in rail passenger numbers. Although there would be a lot of local passengers there would also potentially be a fair few longer distance passengers who would use it to get closer to their home.

The main benefit for the area would be trains to Heathrow.

True, and depending on where connections to Heathrow are possible from then for some having the option of going to Ascot (or two options for getting to Reading) could help.

 

[fandroid]

Someone mentioned that Blackwater Valley to Portsmouth is shocking. The sad truth is that all connections to Portsmouth are shocking. There is one direct train per hour from Basingstoke, and that takes 80 mins. Trains to the neighbouring city of Southampton take far too long. Connections to the Midlands and North are only for the truly determined. It's time the good burghers of Pompey started making a massive stink about how their train connections have dwindled to the sad nonsense they are now.

 

[Dougieskins]

Hello all,

Does anyone know what the latest news is regarding the proposed Borden/Bentley line?!

 

[godfreycomplex]

it angers me that a small number people can make it difficult to happen and it would make life easier for everyone else

Welcome to Surrey!

 

[godfreycomplex]

Hello all,

Does anyone know what the latest news is regarding the proposed Bordon/Bentley line?!

No news whatsoever. Fairly unlikely to happen without Bentley - Wrecclesham (re)doubling (££) and enough stock/paths for a third hourly service from Waterloo or a complete rejig of the signalling to join/divide trains at Bentley (£££££££). Methinks it's all wibble

Why they have to expand Bordon is quite beyond me, there's chuff all employment in East Hants these days as it is, but that's a side point

 

[duncanp]

An example of the shockingly poor service level offering from Stagecoach: Yateley, a town on the northern edge of the conurbation with a population of 20,000, is "superserved" on Sundays with a bus departure every two hours from 10:30 to 18:30. So, five buses. Pathetic.

And a large town like Fleet has no buses at all on Sundays, or after about 7pm during the rest of the week, and no direct bus to Frimley Park Hospital.

 

[The Ham]

No news whatsoever. Fairly unlikely to happen without Bentley - Wrecclesham (re)doubling (££) and enough stock/paths for a third hourly service from Waterloo or a complete rejig of the signalling to join/divide trains at Bentley (£££££££). Methinks it's all wibble

Why they have to expand Bordon is quite beyond me, there's chuff all employment in East Hants these days as it is, but that's a side point

The proposal put forward in the report looking at the link was to split a unit off from the Alton services. Given that the signals would need a rejig for the junction, the extra cost for allowing trains to decide would be fairly minimal.

The whole point of the suggestion was that there was no need for redoubling or extra Waterloo services.

In some extents it could solve some existing problems, like that of 12 coach trains not fitting into Alton station.

 

[MarkyT]

With CR2 eventually freeing up some terminating capacity at Waterloo, there must be some merit in looking for additional outer suburban branches for the SW network to serve. Camberley via Frimley looks compelling but there's difficulty in arranging practical junctions. Here's my latest stab at the concept. A grade separated junction would leave the main line near the existing bridge over the Aldershot line and cross the valley to call at new Farnborough North platforms built just to the east of the A331. Aldershot trains would also be diverted via the new station, passing through the same main line underpass as down Camberley trains from Waterloo. Thus connections would be available between North Downs trains and Aldershot services with a much shorter walk than between North Camp and Ash Vale. With its improved connectivity, consideration could be given to making Farnborough North the primary Farnborough/Aldershot area stop for the limited stop Gatwick trains instead of North Camp. The existing route between Frimley and near Mychett would be removed and converted to a pedestrian and cycle trail.

At Camberley the Waterloo trains could either have new reversal facilities built for them there or continue on to terminate at Ascot, but I suggest a new west curve could also be constructed at Ascot:

http://www.townend.me/files/ascot.pdf

That would allow the Camberley trains to bypass Ascot and run on to Bracknell, Wokingham and Reading, permitting Reading area local services to be further strengthened without having to find paths for the trains further in on the Windsor Lines network into Waterloo with all the level crossing concerns etc.

 

[The Ham]

With CR2 eventually freeing up some terminating capacity at Waterloo, there must be some merit in looking for additional outer suburban branches for the SW network to serve. Camberley via Frimley looks compelling but there's difficulty in arranging practical junctions. Here's my latest stab at the concept. A grade separated junction would leave the main line near the existing bridge over the Aldershot line and cross the valley to call at new Farnborough North platforms built just to the east of the A331. Aldershot trains would also be diverted via the new station, passing through the same main line underpass as down Camberley trains from Waterloo. Thus connections would be available between North Downs trains and Aldershot services with a much shorter walk than between North Camp and Ash Vale. With its improved connectivity, consideration could be given to making Farnborough North the primary Farnborough/Aldershot area stop for the limited stop Gatwick trains instead of North Camp. The existing route between Frimley and near Mychett would be removed and converted to a pedestrian and cycle trail.

At Camberley the Waterloo trains could either have new reversal facilities built for them there or continue on to terminate at Ascot, but I suggest a new west curve could also be constructed at Ascot:

http://www.townend.me/files/ascot.pdf

That would allow the Camberley trains to bypass Ascot and run on to Bracknell, Wokingham and Reading, permitting Reading area local services to be further strengthened without having to find paths for the trains further in on the Windsor Lines network into Waterloo with all the level crossing concerns etc.

An interesting suggestion, however with the loadings on the existing services it is unlikely that there would be enough demand to justify the expense of that junction and limiting the number of services that could run to other places.

Having west facing arms to the junction and then changing at Farnborough Main for a fast service could be of a similar journey time as a direct service that then stopped at a number of stations on route (which would likely be required to justify the use of a path).

At the moment there are relatively few trains that use the slow lines between Farnborough and Basingstoke, so it could be possible to have two or three trains per hour between Camberley and Farnborough compared with probably just the one direct service towards Waterloo. Meaning that the west facing junction would be more heavily used and could give passengers the choice of a number of services each hour that would suit them.

It would also help with passengers heading west in that they wouldn't have to double back from Woking (about a 10 minute journey each way from the new junction).

A west facing junction (although would need to have tighter radii and so slower line speeds) would probably also require less new track making it potentially cheaper.

The other bonus would being able to bypass much of the line towards Waterloo during engineering works.