BR diesel and electric locomotive plans that never happened

[Western 52]

I’m aware that BR made plans for a number of locomotive types or conversions that did not eventually take place. For example, in the 1980s there was a plan to build a Class 38 (for freight I think), and engines which could have been used were tried out in class 37/9. I’ve also heard of a proposed “Super Deltic” which never materialised.

What other proposals came to nothing? I’m mainly interested in the BR era 1948 – 1993, but anything interesting is most welcome!

 

[6Gman]

I’m aware that BR made plans for a number of locomotive types or conversions that did not eventually take place. For example, in the 1980s there was a plan to build a Class 38 (for freight I think), and engines which could have been used were tried out in class 37/9. I’ve also heard of a proposed “Super Deltic” which never materialised.

What other proposals came to nothing? I’m mainly interested in the BR era 1948 – 1993, but anything interesting is most welcome!

I once came across a file for an 08 replacement. Cannot remember the date of the document. It was, to put it mildly, rather ambitious - higher max speed, dual-braked, eth for empty stock work etc. etc.

No surprise it never got any further.

 

[Harvester]

I’ve also heard of a proposed “Super Deltic” which never materialised.

IIRC they were proposed for working the northern section of the WCML prior to it’s electrification. In the end BR got 50 Hoovers instead.

 

[Strathclyder]

Wasn't there meant to be a pure electric version of the Class 58 that never came to anything?

 

[Harvester]

Wasn't there meant to be a pure electric version of the Class 58 that never came to anything?

Yes it would have been classified Class 88, if construction had gone ahead back in the nineties.

 

[Cowley]

Yes it would have been classified Class 88, if construction had gone ahead back in the nineties.

I must admit that I’ve never heard of that proposal. Are there any details anywhere?

 

[hexagon789]

I must admit that I’ve never heard of that proposal. Are there any details anywhere?

I'd heard of a different proposal drawn up in the mid-1970s for two new freight loco designs.

The 88 was to be a Co-Co
The 89 was to be a Bo-Bo-Bo

Both were to be based on the Clsss 87 design, the mockup looked strikingly similar on the front end.

(I believe power outputs would have been in the region of 8,000hp from memory.)

I haven't heard of the electric "58" Class 88 proposal from the nineties though, so I can't offer any help there.

 

[Cowley]

I'd heard of a different proposal drawn up in the mid-1970s for two new freight loco designs.

The 88 was to be a Co-Co
The 89 was to be a Bo-Bo-Bo

Both were to be based on the Clsss 87 design, the mockup looked strikingly similar on the front end.

(I believe power outputs would have been in the region of 8,000hp from memory.)

I haven't heard of the electric "58" Class 88 proposal from the nineties though, so I can't offer any help there.

Wow. Imagine either of those versions of a class 87. What an absolute weapon one of those would have been!

 

[D6968]

Wasn’t there a plan for a Napier HST?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Not a loco….. Class 471 networker express, essentially a 465 on steroids and with corridor connection. Planned to replace Kent coast CEPs

 

[randyrippley]

There were plans for a super-Western using two Hymek diesels though it seems unclear if they would have actually fitted

 

[43096]

Wasn’t there a plan for a Napier HST?

HST power cars had Napier turbochargers when built!

 

[D1537]

I must admit that I’ve never heard of that proposal. Are there any details anywhere?

I do remember the concept being tossed around in the magazines in the late 80s, together with some mock up drawings (which basically looked like a 58 with an electric locomotive's roof) but I think it was something that never got past the drawing board.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'd heard of a different proposal drawn up in the mid-1970s for two new freight loco designs.

The 88 was to be a Co-Co
The 89 was to be a Bo-Bo-Bo

Both were to be based on the Clsss 87 design, the mockup looked strikingly similar on the front end.

(I believe power outputs would have been in the region of 8,000hp from memory.)

I haven't heard of the electric "58" Class 88 proposal from the nineties though, so I can't offer any help there.

Your reminding me of 89001 Avocet (Co-Co electric). Is that the resulting prototype ?.

I guess the 90s are really what we got instead of what you refer to (my bold) !.

 

[gordonthemoron]

What class was the proposed loco for the IC250 proposal for WCML?

 

[Western Lord]

There were plans for a super-Western using two Hymek diesels though it seems unclear if they would have actually fitted

According to the drawing in Diesel Hydraulic Locomotives of the Western Region by Brian Reed, yes they would! Two 16 cylinder Maybach MD870s set at 2,000bhp driving through Mekydro K184U transmissions, proposed in 1963 apparently.

 

[D1537]

What class was the proposed loco for the IC250 proposal for WCML?

Class 93.

 

[hexagon789]

Your reminding me of 89001 Avocet (Co-Co electric). Is that the resulting prototype ?.

No, completely different design developed by Brush. Just coincidence it gained the 89 TOPS class number.

What class was the proposed loco for the IC250 proposal for WCML?

Streamlined, singled-end "Power car" style of locomotive. Ie basically an electric HST power car. Output would've been about 5,500kW.

Wow. Imagine either of those versions of a class 87. What an absolute weapon one of those would have been!

Imagine if BR licenced the DB 103(!), those things are seriously powerful. The transformer uprate switch could be used to give a 10 minute output of 10,400kW (13,947hp).

 

[randyrippley]

HST power cars had Napier turbochargers when built!

I guess he means a super-Deltic HST. Some of the later deltic engines were pushing out 4000hp+

 

[Western 52]

According to the drawing in Diesel Hydraulic Locomotives of the Western Region by Brian Reed, yes they would! Two 16 cylinder Maybach MD870s set at 2,000bhp driving through Mekydro K184U transmissions, proposed in 1963 apparently.

That would have been something awesome! Ideal over the south Devon banks and able to work some seriously heavy freight. I wonder if they'd have continued western themed names?

 

[hexagon789]

I guess he means a super-Deltic HST. Some of the later deltic engines were pushing out 4000hp+

Presumably you mean the pair in conjunction, rather than individually? (Given the 18-25 Series II Type V are rated at 1,750bhp normally but downrated to 1,650bhp for rail use in the Class 55 Deltic locomotives.)

 

[43096]

I guess he means a super-Deltic HST. Some of the later deltic engines were pushing out 4000hp+

I was assuming that, hence the .

More seriously, there was a proposal for a Deltic-engined HST; I seem to remember there was an article on it by Roger Ford, which concluded that the Valenta option was the correct one.

Whilst we're talking HSTs, there was a proposal for electric HST power cars to be built. Indeed a build of four was authorised, then later cancelled, and they would have been classified as Class 90s. 125 Group members will have seen a lengthy article on this in a recent issue of their magazine.

 

[berwicksfinest]

How about the never was Sprinter for Strathclyde PTE

British Rail Class 157 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cowley]

Was there a plan for a super 50 as well at some point? I’ve just been trying to find out some details online but can’t find anything.
I seem to recall it being twin engined, possibly with Napiers?

 

[hexagon789]

Was there a plan for a super 50 as well at some point? I’ve just been trying to find out some details online but can’t find anything.
I seem to recall it being twin engined, possibly with Napiers?

Was that not the "Super" Deltic (twin uprated Napiers - 4,400hp gross and 125mph gearing).

 

[Steddenm]

How about the Class 316 Pic-Vic units?

British Rail Class 316 (Picc-Vic) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[hexagon789]

How about the Class 316 Pic-Vic units?

British Rail Class 316 (Picc-Vic) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Basically a 315?

 

[gg1]

I once came across a file for an 08 replacement. Cannot remember the date of the document. It was, to put it mildly, rather ambitious - higher max speed, dual-braked, eth for empty stock work etc. etc.

I remember reading about that too, I think it was a mid-late 80s idea.

It's only really over ambitious if you stick to the British model of a relatively low powered 0-6-0 loco, I'm sure it would be feasible if the design was based on that of a larger and more powerful US style Bo-Bo switcher loco. I suspect the reason it didn't happen was more to do with there not being a strong enough need for one at that point rather than any technical obstacles.

 

[birchesgreen]

Wasn't there a new Type 1 planned at some stage called the Class 18, i've never seen any details about it though.

 

[randyrippley]

Presumably you mean the pair in conjunction, rather than individually? (Given the 18-25 Series II Type V are rated at 1,750bhp normally but downrated to 1,650bhp for rail use in the Class 55 Deltic locomotives.)

No, I mean 4000hp per engine