Bradford Crossrail: But Why?

[Allwinter_Kit]

I know that Bradford Crossrail is essentially Godwin's Law on this forum (other nominations include Edinburgh South Sub and Skipton-Colne), but one question I have never seen answered when digging through the archives (although correct me if I missed it) is what the proponents of such a through route...want to do with it?

Let's get out the crayons. We somehow replace Forster Square and Interchange with one, fabulous station where Broadway is now. For the purposes of this thread let's call it Bradford Central. Let's not ask about the specifics. We have achieved the Victorian Dream, ladies and gents. Let's go further, Let's say that Bradford Central to Leeds via New Pudsey is also electrified as part or the project.

But... what... what do we do? Is there a wildly massive flow from Bingley to Todmorden we've unlocked that we need to enable with diagrams? What routes would we actually run? Is Kirkstall Forge to Rochdale the great demand that merited this route?

Why would we want Bradford Central, other than for neatness? What routes would you run? Is it a freight thing I haven't realised?

 

[Spaceflower]

Glasgow - nottingham.

On a serious note, I think that should such a dream be realised, it would also require the reopening of a high quality route from Wakefield.

And in terms of freight, I'm sure that would free up some paths on the WCML/ECML and around Leeds and Manchester....?

I'm sure that the concentration of existing services into one station would also bring about substantial wider benefits.

 

[30907]

Bradford is my (adopted) city and family home, so my instinct is to say that improving its connectivity is definitely worthwhile.

However, as you say, there is no one obvious flow to cater for (Airedale-Halifax is probably the biggest). You could divert Calder Valley services through Shipley to Leeds (they would take about the same time) but Airedale-Leeds via New Pudsey would be significantly slower than at present.

So where does the idea come from?

Back in 1900-odd when the Midland proposed it, Bradford was the most important city in the West Riding (OK "arguably") which the MR could only reach by the 1840s river-valley route through Normanton Holbeck and Shipley. So it was a worthwhile destination in itself, as well as shortening significantly the route to Scotland.

The fact that the MR abandoned the idea even in a slimmed down form, despite the blandishments of the local powes, speaks for itself. (A quick search led me to this interesting article: https://www.bradfordhistorical.org.uk/allchange.html)

So modern proposals combine (along with other factors, no doubt)
(1) memory of the Midland's ideas and
(2) the obvious point that the two termini more-or-less face each other (like central and QS in Glasgow, only smaller!)
(3) the volume of N-S road traffic along the Shipley Airedale Road east of the city centre.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bradford is my (adopted) city and family home, so my instinct is to say that improving its connectivity is definitely worthwhile.

My frequent objection to the idea is that it wouldn't do a whole lot to help Bradford or its economy. The main beneficiaries of Bradford Crossrail would be passengers who aren't intending to visit Bradford at all. It's not as if the opening of Bradford Central would suddenly prompt the likes of Selfridges and Harvey Nicks to open big flagship stores in the city.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The optimum solution for Bradford would actually be an E-W Crossrail so that Calder Valley trains do not have reverse at Interchange, with a new, through, underground Central (Hauptbanhof!) station somewhere in the German Quarter. From this would also be a link to Forster Square and the Shipley line. A cheapskate version of this has been proposed with a new station in the St. James Market area, but it is too far from the city-centre. Neither version is ever likely to happen, of course.

 

[Mr. SW]

I know Bradford and had a look at this some years ago out of curiosity and I couldn't help thinking that if they did have a central station, it would have to be operated as two back-to-back termini with only a few token services being run through. Inter-city services certainly would not run through.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

The main beneficiaries of Bradford Crossrail would be passengers who aren't intending to visit Bradford at all.

I couldn't help thinking that if they did have a central station, it would have to be operated as two back-to-back termini with only a few token services being run through. Inter-city services certainly would not run through.

These sum up why I asked the question. Through passengers from where to where? What would actually be changed by this project?

I think that Mr SW is close to the mark in saying that you'd struggle to get any through flows that made sense, which I guess is what I'm looking for.

Bradford is my (adopted) city and family home, so my instinct is to say that improving its connectivity is definitely worthwhile.

However, as you say, there is no one obvious flow to cater for (Airedale-Halifax is probably the biggest). You could divert Calder Valley services through Shipley to Leeds (they would take about the same time) but Airedale-Leeds via New Pudsey would be significantly slower than at present.

So far in the thread we've got "we could maybe add Shipley to some Calder Valley services" which doesn't seem wildly worth it, especially given how congested the Leeds NW triangle already is. The DMUs from past Skipton are problematic enough to flight through (although obviously worthwhile to do so!) but adding diesel services that have come from the cauldron of delay that is "near Manchester" to this stretch for no journey time saving and just an additional station call seems a lot. Would this be simply to avoid the reversal?

Not that I'm having a go at any of these suggestions, I'm just genuinely interested as to what people think it would unlock, if anything!

 

[xotGD]

The benefit would be to folk like me who would have a cross-platform connection to get from Airedale to Manchester, instead of having to walk between stations.

The extended official connection times imposed by the walk often make such routings appear unattractive (and not show up in journey planners), and push yet more passengers through Leeds and onto Trans Pennine Express services.

It would also benefit passengers travelling from Bradford to Leeds, not having to decide which station to use. A particular pain when there is disruption on one of the routes. Plus not having trains to London leaving from two different stations.

 

[stuu]

There must be lots of journeys which are done by car which could be done by train if there were through services. People do lots of suburb to suburb journeys in any city, so I don't see why Bradford would be any different. People in Bingley travel to Pudsey etc... Almost certainly not enough traffic to actually justify spending the sort of money needed, but you wouldn't design the rail network as it is if you were starting from scratch

 

[dk1]

I think getting that extra platform at Forster Square is the best we are going to get to see in Bradford apart from possibly wiring up Interchange at some point. Linking the two together is nothing more than a pipe dream.

 

[Magdalia]

Back in 1900-odd when the Midland proposed it, Bradford was the most important city in the West Riding (OK "arguably") which the MR could only reach by the 1840s river-valley route through Normanton Holbeck and Shipley. So it was a worthwhile destination in itself, as well as shortening significantly the route to Scotland.

In the days of the Midland Railway the UK economy was very different. Manufacturing industry dominated and Bradford was a major centre of the textile and clothing industry.

The Midland got part way to Bradford from the south, building a line from Royston Junction to Dewsbury, but then made do with a connection onto the Lancashire and Yorkshire network at Thornhill.

The dominance of Leeds in the West Yorkshire economy is a recent phenomenon partly explained by the UK economy switching from manufacturing to services.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

There must be lots of journeys which are done by car which could be done by train if there were through services. People do lots of suburb to suburb journeys in any city, so I don't see why Bradford would be any different. People in Bingley travel to Pudsey etc...

Agreed. I guess the question I'm asking is how would this august forum want to enable those journeys (assuming Bradford Central is built and Bradford - New Pudsey - Leeds is electrified).

Would you choose to send the Skipton - Leeds services via Low Moor and Bradford Central on the way? Would the Leeds to Bradford (via Shipley) services carry on to Halifax if we gave them a bi-mode? What would anyone reading this do with this newfound flexibility? How would we utilise the through-ness that we've crayonista-d into being?

Or would it still, essentially, just be two termini albeit with a 5 minute change time compared to a 15 minute walk?

EDIT:

I mean having just thought about this for a moment longer, actually you'd probably keep the Skipton trains (with their longer journey time) on the current Aire route and instead route all the Ilkley ones via the Low Moor route, thence Shipley and Baildon I suspect, if they can put up with the journey time hit (which they probably can more than the Skipton ones). Although that might cause some issues given the extent of single line working.

 

[Spaceflower]

1. Flagship development.

2. Strategic freight route.

3. Better connections; both to the city and across it.

4. Congestion relief.

5. A rebuilt single station would be more efficient to operate than two older ones.

6. New longer distance opportunities (London, Glasgow, etc).

7. Congestion relief around Leeds/Manchester by re-routing freight via Wakefield and Bradford (although connected to point 2).

8. Better operational flexibility in the Bradford area.

 

[30907]

1. Flagship development.

Which one?

2. Strategic frieght route.

From where to where?

3. Better connections; both to the city and across it

In what way?

6. New longer distance opportunities (London, Glasgow, etc).

How? 2-hourly LNERs plus GCs already run.

Yes, adding Bradford to Leeds-Glasgow might improve the business case marginally despite the increase in journey time.

 

[Spaceflower]

1. I mean the new central station ofcourse.

2. Scotland/ northern Pennines.

3. Every way. A new more central station could incorporate much improved and seamless transfer into the city centre.

6. GC? Isn't it still quicker going via Leeds?

All my points would require the reopening of the line via Cleckheaton. I personally think alot of the benefits of such a Bradford crossrail would hinge on that being part of the proposal.
But this is back of the fag packet stuff on a Sunday afternoon. And I stopped smoking 7 years ago!

 

[Mgameing123]

I know that Bradford Crossrail is essentially Godwin's Law on this forum (other nominations include Edinburgh South Sub and Skipton-Colne), but one question I have never seen answered when digging through the archives (although correct me if I missed it) is what the proponents of such a through route...want to do with it?

Let's get out the crayons. We somehow replace Forster Square and Interchange with one, fabulous station where Broadway is now. For the purposes of this thread let's call it Bradford Central. Let's not ask about the specifics. We have achieved the Victorian Dream, ladies and gents. Let's go further, Let's say that Bradford Central to Leeds via New Pudsey is also electrified as part or the project.

But... what... what do we do? Is there a wildly massive flow from Bingley to Todmorden we've unlocked that we need to enable with diagrams? What routes would we actually run? Is Kirkstall Forge to Rochdale the great demand that merited this route?

Why would we want Bradford Central, other than for neatness? What routes would you run? Is it a freight thing I haven't realised?

Note: This is coming from someone who doesn't know much about the area

I don't see the point in merging both Bradford stations into 1 BUT I do see the point in making an S bahn type tunnel with underground platforms at Forster Square & maybe Interchange. Because Bradford Interchange is already located right next to a major bus station meanwhile Forster Square is just Forster Square. This new tunnel could eliminate the need for the Manchester Victoria - Leeds service to do the u turn at Bradford Interchange & instead would allow it to merge with the Bradford - Leeds via Shipley service. Then the service between Bradford Interchange & Leeds could merge with the Skipton train.

 

[Spaceflower]

What is the loading gauge on the S&C? Can it take container traffic?

I think my Greater Bradford international crossrail project just hit the buffers. I'll go back to my cupboard and wait patiently for thext crayon/back of fag packet session.

 

[fishwomp]

Bradford is cursed in having had its two termini made more distant from each other on two occasions.

In '60s (early 70s?) when Exchange closed and the new Interchange opened, and then in 90's when the buffer stops moved closer to Shipley at Forster Sq.

Glasgow Queen St high and low level, they operate as two different lines (obviously). Nothing wrong with being two separate services (with no strategic freight value either!) - but definitely a benefit to passengers in having easier connections. If someone came along and said let's move one to be 200 yards further away, we'd say it was bonkers today.

Alas it's just not going to be fixed, ever..

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Another reason it comes up a lot is that some people get hung up on the reversal at Interchange. The actual turnarounds at BDI only add a few minutes, and if there was a real need to reduce this further it could be done by crews "stepping back" as per London Underground. This isn't seen as an issue at Forster Square as pretty much everything terminates there.
If loco run round were still required maybe they'd have a point, but the reversals at BDI aren't a significant problem... they just feel like a pain in the proverbial when you have to swap seats for your preferred direction.

 

[A S Leib]

Keeping Leeds – Ilkley at (at least) 2 tph, Leeds – Skipton and west at 3 tph and Leeds – Hebden Bridge at 4 tph, how frequently could Skipton, Ilkley, Leeds and Halifax / south to Bradford services be run with a through station? The fact that Skipton and Ilkley to Bradford haven't gone back to 2 tph off-peak doesn't seem like extra capacity north of Bradford's desperately needed though.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A Bradford city centre crossing is needed, but it would be better done with a tram because 1) you get much better penetration of the city centre with surface stops, 2) you can connect directly from both main stations on a tram alignment to Leeds Bradford Airport via Eccleshill, Ravenscliffe and Apperley Bridge (which would be quite expensive if done as pure heavy rail) and 3) trams can use a lane of Wakefield Road in each direction to head towards Birkenshaw and Morley, without having to reinstate the old heavy rail alignment all the way into Bradford.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Hey everyone. I agree that it isn't going to happen, and that light rail etc. would be a way more useful invesfment for WYorks. There are many threads where the "could we do it?" issue has been very well litigated - we don't need another yet!

The question I'm looking for you to get your crayons out on isn't "how we connect BDQ and BDI?" but, if it had been done by heavy rail somehow what would we change? Assuming we can get trains through from the Calder Valley to Shipley via "Bradford Central" - what routes do we change or bring in? It's truly "speculative discussion"!

If the answer is nothing, then that's fine, I was just wondering what would people would actually want to do with it from a railway point of view, not the wider ramifications / regeneration benefits for Bradford etc. Sorry if that wasn't clear!

 

[Spaceflower]

Hey everyone. I agree that it isn't going to happen, and that light rail etc. would be a way more useful invesfment for WYorks. There are many threads where the "could we do it?" issue has been very well litigated - we don't need another yet!

The question I'm looking for you to get your crayons out on isn't "how we connect BDQ and BDI?" but, if it had been done by heavy rail somehow what would we change? Assuming we can get trains through from the Calder Valley to Shipley via "Bradford Central" - what routes do we change or bring in? It's truly "speculative discussion"!

If the answer is nothing, then that's fine, I was just wondering what would people would actually want to do with it from a railway point of view, not the wider ramifications / regeneration benefits for Bradford etc. Sorry if that wasn't clear!

You made yourself perfectly clear the first time around but such things don't happen in isolation hence why I think it's good to have fairly loose boundaries.

However, to keep it laser focussed:

Both the hourly Skipton - Bradford and Ilkey - Bradford are extended to create a half hourly link to Wakefield via Cleckheaton. Except when the two hourly Grand Central Halifax to London runs (reversing at central, ofcourse ). The Hull? - Leeds - Halifax is rerouted via Shipley. This is to reduce conflict at the southern throat to allow spare paths/capacity for my (strategically reduced) freight corridor to the north. Everything else stays the same.

Now, what would the optimal layout be?

Crayons at the ready, three, two, one...........

 

[A S Leib]

The Hull? - Leeds - Halifax is rerouted via Shipley.

I know there's the Manchester Victoria to Leeds and Blackpool North to York services, but what picks up the New Pudsey and Bramley calls?

 

[Mgameing123]

I know there's the Manchester Victoria to Leeds and Blackpool North to York services, but what picks up the New Pudsey and Bramley calls?

The Skipton train perhaps could be extended to Leeds?

 

[fishwomp]

If the answer is nothing, then that's fine, I was just wondering what would people would actually want to do with it from a railway point of view, not the wider ramifications / regeneration benefits for Bradford etc. Sorry if that wasn't clear!

If you look at West Yorkshire towns by population, (from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_West_Yorkshire_by_population) 2011 data..

1	Leeds	474,632
2	Bradford	349,561
3	Huddersfield	162,949
4	Wakefield	99,251
5	Halifax	88,134
6	Batley	80,485
7	Dewsbury	62,945
8	Keighley	53,331
9	Castleford	39,192
10	Brighouse	33,286

The basic benefit of "closing the gap" (assuming separate but connecting trains) is not felt by Bradford or Leeds, but that you make Keighley and Halifax about 15-x mins closer to each other, where x is the new walking time. It doesn't make as much difference to anywhere else in the list.. you can get the benefit without running a through service.

Currently national rail planner will send you across Bradford for this journey, but somewhere like Brighouse sends you either way, with Bradford a few minutes quicker than via Leeds.

 

[Palmerston]

No-one seems to have mentioned how these services would be affected / tie in with the new Northern Powerhouse rail high speed Liverpool to Hull via Manchester, Bradford and Leeds.

Would one make the other unnecessary or do you need both to make the whole project work?

 

[Spaceflower]

I'm not really sure what's being proposed on the Calder Valley route with respect to the NPH. Would you be so kind as to provide a brief summary?

Wakefield Kirkgate currently leaves alot to be desired imo....

No-one seems to have mentioned how these services would be affected / tie in with the new Northern Powerhouse rail high speed Liverpool to Hull via Manchester, Bradford and Leeds.

Would one make the other unnecessary or do you need both to make the whole project work?

 

[Ben427]

If you look at West Yorkshire towns by population, (from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_West_Yorkshire_by_population) 2011 data..

1	Leeds	474,632
2	Bradford	349,561
3	Huddersfield	162,949
4	Wakefield	99,251
5	Halifax	88,134
6	Batley	80,485
7	Dewsbury	62,945
8	Keighley	53,331
9	Castleford	39,192
10	Brighouse	33,286

The basic benefit of "closing the gap" (assuming separate but connecting trains) is not felt by Bradford or Leeds, but that you make Keighley and Halifax about 15-x mins closer to each other, where x is the new walking time. It doesn't make as much difference to anywhere else in the list.. you can get the benefit without running a through service.

Currently national rail planner will send you across Bradford for this journey, but somewhere like Brighouse sends you either way, with Bradford a few minutes quicker than via Leeds.

I know the figures for "how big a city is" but these figures from the ONS seem ridiculous. It counts Horsforth separately from Leeds for example. Horsforth is most definitely Leeds, in the ring road and part of the built up area

 

[Magdalia]

If you look at West Yorkshire towns by population, (from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_West_Yorkshire_by_population) 2011 data..

I know the figures for "how big a city is" but these figures from the ONS seem ridiculous. It counts Horsforth separately from Leeds for example. Horsforth is most definitely Leeds, in the ring road and part of the built up area

It helps to use recent data, not the 2011 census, and the official source:

The ONS gives the following built up area populations (BUAs) in 2021:

Leeds 536280
Bradford 333950
Huddersfield 141675
Wakefield 97870
Halifax 88115
Dewsbury 63720
Keighley 48750
Castleford 45355
Batley 44500
Pudsey 34850
Brighouse 33160

I am not a fan of referencing wikipedia, but this page has the correct data, which I have cross checked against the ONS spreadsheet.

It also helpfully gives details of what is included in each BUA for those with populations above 75000.

List of ONS built-up areas in England by population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This list of built-up areas for England was compiled by the Office for National Statistics after the 2021 UK Census.[1] Built-up area boundaries are defined and named by the ONS.