Brighton-Bedford services - any 319's still being used?

[Class 33]

It's been a while since I got on one of these services. I read a while ago that a lot of the Class 319's were replaced with Class 377's on these services. But Wikipedia states that 319's are still being used on these services, along with the 377's. Does anyone know which specific services are operated by the 319's? Not a big fan of the 377's myself, give me a 319 anyday.

 

[Lee_Again]

Was on one today. I think it was the 14.18 from St Albans.

On the way back, I think the 16.22 from Farringdon, there was another 319; I used a slower service (more seats).

FCC (and Thamesling before) have always been useless at allocating stock. In the old days they had two types of 319. Basically one had a 3x2 layout and no first class while the other was typically a mixture of layouts with first class. Even though the timetable went to great lengths to show which type would operate each service you would never bet on them being correct.

Now that the new stock is arriving it's just as bad.

Wait until it's 24tph through the central section. It will be chaos.

 

[John Webb]

'On Duty' at St Albans South yesterday there was quite a mix of 319s and 377s plus a couple of interesting engineers' trains passing, to say nothing of the East Midlands fasts passing to and fro. Several of the latter were on the slow lines, so I assume there was some work in progress somewhere north of St Albans.

 

[asylumxl]

Generally, during peak times the services are mostly 319s, in order to keep the chance of blocking up the core low.

 

[Minstral25]

All the services that call at Redhill (morning and Evening) are 319's and I have to agree that most services in the peaks south of the river are 319's because hardly ever see a 377 on the route.

Have to say in travelling terms as a commuter (not as an enthusiast) the 377's beat the "refurbished" 319's any day - the 319's have been refitted with the most uncomfortable seats that are very narrow - even if in 2+2 layout - plus the tables have gone which is a personal dislike (I like to have somewhere to put my fresh coffee in the morning that isn't the floor!)

Occasionally get an old Southern 319 without the refurbishment - absolutely the best travelling experience on the line! Assume they won't be round long sadly.

 

[asylumxl]

All the services that call at Redhill (morning and Evening) are 319's and I have to agree that most services in the peaks south of the river are 319's because hardly ever see a 377 on the route.

Have to say in travelling terms as a commuter (not as an enthusiast) the 377's beat the "refurbished" 319's any day - the 319's have been refitted with the most uncomfortable seats that are very narrow - even if in 2+2 layout - plus the tables have gone which is a personal dislike (I like to have somewhere to put my fresh coffee in the morning that isn't the floor!)

Occasionally get an old Southern 319 without the refurbishment - absolutely the best travelling experience on the line! Assume they won't be round long sadly.

If you look in my threads, there's one about the Southern 319 being retrimmed.

They are staying around because it's deemed as not cost effective to replace the interior.

 

[Old Timer]

319s are in regular use on the Bedford to Brighton services.

I find the 377s very hard to navigate through if you have more than a single slim laptop bag or briefcase.

The 3+2 seating of the 377s does not lend itself very well to a service that serves a major airport, and on which it can be expected that airline passengers with bags will travel on a regular basis.

It is far easier to walk through a 319.

 

[Minstral25]

319s are in regular use on the Bedford to Brighton services.

I find the 377s very hard to navigate through if you have more than a single slim laptop bag or briefcase.

The 3+2 seating of the 377s does not lend itself very well to a service that serves a major airport, and on which it can be expected that airline passengers with bags will travel on a regular basis.

It is far easier to walk through a 319.

That's the old 3+2 versus 2+2 argument. On Southern 377's coaches 1 and 4 are fully 2+2 (except a couple of 377/1's) and some have 2+2 on 2 and 3 as well. The 377/3 were completely 2+2 but it has been speculated these will have seats swapped out to 3+2 which is a real shame. I haven't been on a 377/5 yet as FCC haven't yet used one on my services when I have been travelling

asylumxl sorry I must have missed your previous comment - that is great news but haven't seen one for ages, the odd green units we get have the stripped out new seats.

 

[dan_atki]

I read a while ago that a lot of the Class 319's were replaced with Class 377's on these services.

They were not so much replaced as supplemented, allowing almost all peak services to be 8 cars in length (IIRC there is still one 4-car service unless this changed last month).

 

[Aictos]

That's the old 3+2 versus 2+2 argument. On Southern 377's coaches 1 and 4 are fully 2+2 (except a couple of 377/1's) and some have 2+2 on 2 and 3 as well. The 377/3 were completely 2+2 but it has been speculated these will have seats swapped out to 3+2 which is a real shame. I haven't been on a 377/5 yet as FCC haven't yet used one on my services when I have been travelling

asylumxl sorry I must have missed your previous comment - that is great news but haven't seen one for ages, the odd green units we get have the stripped out new seats.

The 377/5s have two coaches with 2+2 seating and two coaches with 2+3 seating.

 

[thefab444]

They were not so much replaced as supplemented, allowing almost all peak services to be 8 cars in length (IIRC there is still one 4-car service unless this changed last month).

The St Pancras - Redhill evening service is still a 4 319 as far as I know.

Whilst I have a low opinion of 377s, I have an even lower opinion of 319s (almost as low as the seats!), so prefer the 377s although I suspect I may feel differently if I travelled with copious amounts of luggage.

 

[The Box Photter]

FCC obtained the use of all the Class 319s, which are a mix of 319/3s & 319/0s (mostly 3+2) seating, 319/4s (mostly 2+2 with luggage racks for airport passengers) & 319/2s with 2+2 Chapman seats (the most comfortable in my opinion). These latter units also had what was referred to as the "pole-dancing area" where a trolley buffet was installed when they were used on London - Brighton fast services. The seats were arranged in a "snug" arrangement around little tables.

These are still liveried in the green & white Southern livery and are having their seats re-trimmed in FCC fabric. Unfortunately for us regular commuters there are also similarly-liveried class 319/0s which are the rattiest of the fleet with the poorest 3+2 seating and beautifully restful interior décor using garish yellow panels. Can anyone tell me how to distinguish between a 319/0 in Southern livery and a 319/2 in Southern livery, from a distance and without being able to see the number of course?

 

[westcoaster]

Can anyone tell me how to distinguish between a 319/0 in Southern livery and a 319/2 in Southern livery, from a distance and without being able to see the number of course?

look at the middle two coaches, look at the one without the pan on top.
now where the toilet is, if it is a /0 there will be one small frosted window on each side. Now on a /2 there will be normal side windows of evan size all along the carriage on one side, on the other side there will be two frosted windows one larger than the other.

 

[The Box Photter]

look at the middle two coaches, look at the one without the pan on top.
now where the toilet is, if it is a /0 there will be one small frosted window on each side. Now on a /2 there will be normal side windows of evan size all along the carriage on one side, on the other side there will be two frosted windows one larger than the other.

Good call. Thanks very much.

 

[Minstral25]

Well done Box Photter / Westcoaster - as a regular commuter to Redhill, exactly what I wanted to know - thx

The 17:40 from St Pancreas is a half empty 4-car set normally - it has never had standing when I have travelled on it and normally I get a couple of seats to myself - it actually proves that Thameslink only works South of the River if you call at London Bridge which the 17:40 misses.

 

[thefab444]

Indeed, I did the 1726 off East Croydon (1552 Bedford - Brighton, runs via Tulse Hill) a few weeks back, and it was pretty empty!

 

[Class377/5]

The 377/5 run 20 of FCC 99 daily diagrams so roughly 20% of all FCC services are 377. The St Pancras - Three Bridges is the only 4 car service from Thameslink down the Brighton mainline via Redhill, hence it being empty at St Pancras (the other being an 8 car 319 Brighton service).

Just to give you an idea, off peak FCC run 10 services per hour through the Core.

4 Bedford - Brighton
2 Loop - St Albans/Luton stoppers
2 Kentish Town - Sevenoaks

Using 20% figure half the Bedford - Brighton trains would 377 off peak. Tho remember in peak the extra Rochester/Ashford service reduces the 377 Brighton service in PM peak.

 

[Minstral25]

The 377/5 run 20 of FCC 99 daily diagrams so roughly 20% of all FCC services are 377. The St Pancras - Three Bridges is the only 4 car service from Thameslink down the Brighton mainline via Redhill, hence it being empty at St Pancras (the other being an 8 car 319 Brighton service).

Just to give you an idea, off peak FCC run 10 services per hour through the Core.

4 Bedford - Brighton
2 Loop - St Albans/Luton stoppers
2 Kentish Town - Sevenoaks

Using 20% figure half the Bedford - Brighton trains would 377 off peak. Tho remember in peak the extra Rochester/Ashford service reduces the 377 Brighton service in PM peak.

The 319 on the 17:40 St Pancras to Three Bridges is non-standing all the way to Three Bridges (well at least Redhill anyway). It is one of the least used rush hour services from London, although the 8 car 377/5 Ashford one just in front of it is also often fairly empty at St Pancras but I don't know if that fills up before Blackfriars.

There are 4 loop services per hour that add up to your 10, so only half the Bed- Brighton trains off -peak could be 377's. Then with the Rochester/Ashford services they use up the 377's in the rush hour.

Why did FCC decide to choose the Ashford route for the new trains over its existing customers on the Brighton route?

By the way - we have posters from FCC heralding their 23 new trains on Redhill station - ironic as we never see any on our services - bet the Wimbledon Loop has plenty of the posters as well.

 

[Edvid]

Some stations on the Ashford/Medway routes can't accomodate >6 car formations without SDO (such as 319s), hence the use of 377s in 8 car formations.

 

[Class377/5]

The 319 on the 17:40 St Pancras to Three Bridges is non-standing all the way to Three Bridges (well at least Redhill anyway). It is one of the least used rush hour services from London, although the 8 car 377/5 Ashford one just in front of it is also often fairly empty at St Pancras but I don't know if that fills up before Blackfriars.

There are 4 loop services per hour that add up to your 10, so only half the Bed- Brighton trains off -peak could be 377's. Then with the Rochester/Ashford services they use up the 377's in the rush hour.

Why did FCC decide to choose the Ashford route for the new trains over its existing customers on the Brighton route?

By the way - we have posters from FCC heralding their 23 new trains on Redhill station - ironic as we never see any on our services - bet the Wimbledon Loop has plenty of the posters as well.

Southbound services generally fill up at City and Blackfriars where northbound are more Farringdon and St Pancras. Most Brighton services leave City in the peak with standing these days. 12 car services are really needed asap.

The 377/5 were chossed for the route as they used to be Networkers out of Blackfriars bays. Once they closed under the Thameslink rebuilding of Blackfriars then it needed to be DV stock. As Edvid states that some station can only take 6 cars. The 319 are out cause of lack of DOO and using 313 would have be out the question as none were spare the 377/5 were choosed. Note the fact that they are Owned by Govia who lend them to First who then lend them back to Govia (via a different franchsie) to do this.