c2c services to Fenchurch Street being moved to Liverpool Street?

[JW16]

I heard a rumour that c2c services from Upminster are going to start being phased out from Fenchurch Street and move to Liverpool Street instead over the coming years. Any truth in this?

 

[richard1976]

I heard a rumour that c2c services from Upminster are going to start being phased out from Fenchurch Street and move to Liverpool Street instead over the coming years. Any truth in this?

Is there any spare capacity for them at Liverpool street?

 

[Class 170101]

You might get away with it after 20:30 on weekdays (as happens now one week in six) and weekends - at 6 paths an hour as happens now when engineering works at Fenchurch Street see c2c diverted to Liverpool Street but forget at all other times Liverpool Street to Barking is just too busy.

It will limit the Liverpool Street Station maintenance strategy and inevitably Fenchurch Street, (Limehouse) and West Ham stations will have to open if Forest Gate Junction is closed for engineering works - also with Gospel Oak to Barking electrification is likely to see many closures of this route over the next 18 months. Therefore I cannot see this happening anytime soon.

What is happening however is that c2c have diverted some services to Liverpool Street at weekends to tap into the market at Westfield.

 

[rebmcr]

Is there any spare capacity for them at Liverpool street?

There probably would be post-Crossrail.

 

[Bungle965]

What would go into Fenchurch Street if C2C did move?
Sam

 

[Class 170101]

Is there any spare capacity for them at Liverpool street?

Yes maybe at Liverpool Street station itself but that doesn't solve the capacity problems between Barking and Stratford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What would go into Fenchurch Street if C2C did move?
Sam

Nothing as per 1980s and 1990s when it was done under BR as an economy measure.

 

[W-on-Sea]

More to the point, is it included in the terms of the new franchise that c2c recently acquired? As far as I know - at least in wholesale terms - it's not.

Sure, there is a desire (and already the capacity, put into practice) to run some more trains to LST to serve Stratford - above all for shoppers at Westfield, but also, when the time comes, to benefit West Ham fans, too (quite a lot of traffic to Upton Park from Southend and Basildon as it happens...) - - but, on the other hand, Limehouse is very much more convenient for the Isle of Dogs/Docklands than Stratford, while West Ham is not the no-mans land that it was even when the c2c platforms opened there not much more than 15 years ago, and further housing and commercial developments are planned there too... While Fenchurch Street has a fantastic location for much of the City, better than Liverpool Street. And seemingly the favoured of the two termini by the longer-distance commuters on c2c.

In short - the situation in East London is now very different from the days when FST was being run down (and e.g. closed in the evenings), back in the 80s, pre-Docklands redevelopment - there is far more of a case for the stations between Fenchurch Street and Barking to have a regular service, and usage backs that up. It's true that the pace of change in Stratford has been even more extraordinary - - which may favour more trains being sent that way (and then either LST, or perhaps, in smaller numbers - as c2c have done on numerous occasions during engineering works or for other reasons - over Gas Factory Junction down to FST.

Crossrail may free up a bit of capacity at LST from 2018 - but I think it will take more than that to lead to FST being given up.

 

[JW16]

Post-Crossrail the easternmost platforms at LST mainline station will certainly have more capacity. A relative told me that "Upminster services" will be gradually phased from FST to LST and then moved completely to LST. Chinese whispers perhaps as she had heard from a neighbour who had heard from...

 

[DarloRich]

What's fst and LST?

 

[jopsuk]

I thought the plans to have regular (something like 2tph) c2c services through Stratford to LST were pretty much confirmed, but certainly not as any sort of plan to close FST?

 

[306024]

I thought the plans to have regular (something like 2tph) c2c services through Stratford to LST were pretty much confirmed, but certainly not as any sort of plan to close FST?

Pretty much confirmed on Saturday and Sunday, in that 2tph were introduced in the December 2015 timetable. Of course how often they actually get to Liverpool St (LST) is another matter given the amount of engineering work already in the plan. As for Monday to Friday, nothing on the horizon and Crossrail should keep it that way as capacity between Forest Gate Jn and Maryland East Jn will still be at a premium.

Not sure having just 2 tph on Saturdays helps when West Ham FC are at the Olympic stadium next season. At least if all trains ran from Fenchurch St (FST) there would be a frequent service from West Ham and all the crowd for c2c would go the same way. Now it is split, just miss a Liverpool St service at Stratford and you've half an hour to wait, or get the Jubilee line to West Ham (and possibly just miss a train there as well). Stratford is busy enough as it is without having a share of 50,000+ football supporters hanging around.

 

[Essexman]

I can't see this happening - West Ham & Limehouse are now too well used to take away their direct services towards Southend.

Whilst having some trains to Stratford can be useful, it means that Fenchurch Street & West Ham lose their regular 10 minute frequency (main line) services, so personally I'd prefer all to Fenchurch Street.

 

[450.emu]

What's fst and LST?

Fenchurch Street and Liverpool street. I think that's their ticketing shorthand code, like how King's Cross is KGX :roll:

 

[chris11256]

During times of disruption c2c have an agreement to run up to 6 tph into LST during peak. This only applies if trains can't actually get to FST for whatever reason. When this happens the agreement states that TFL rail cancel 6 services in exchange.

That's what c2c Delivery Director told us at the last passenger panel meeting.


Couldn't there be more use of Gas Factory Junction? That way services can see run to/from Fenchchurch Street, but with the benefit of calling at Stratford.

 

[Diplodicus]

The introduction of Crossrail is almost certain to lead to an overall increase in individual journeys. This is what happened with the completion of the last segment of the M25 (M3 to M1 via M4). The planners significantly underestimated the additional journeys made possible (eg "popping over to Watford from Leatherhead for a meeting).

 

[swt_passenger]

Post-Crossrail the easternmost platforms at LST mainline station will certainly have more capacity.

They're already earmarked for additional GEML services though.

I think someone has heard about the planned weekend shopper services via Stratford and wrongly assumed they are going to be 7 day services.

 

[JW16]

Yes I think they must have been mistaken. Can't see c2c losing the interchanges possible at West Ham and Limehouse, especially with the DLR.

 

[Starmill]

Fenchurch Street and Liverpool street. I think that's their ticketing shorthand code, like how King's Cross is KGX :roll:

I believe you will find that they are the CRS codes for London Fenchurch Street, London Liverpool Street and London King's Cross respectively.

 

[Mag_seven]

Fenchurch Street and Liverpool street. I think that's their ticketing shorthand code, like how King's Cross is KGX :roll:

I wish posters would not to use these three digit station codes in thread titles - I (and no doubt lots of others) do not carry them around in my head.:-x

 

[Class 170101]

I can't see this happening - West Ham & Limehouse are now too well used to take away their direct services towards Southend.

Whilst having some trains to Stratford can be useful, it means that Fenchurch Street & West Ham lose their regular 10 minute frequency (main line) services, so personally I'd prefer all to Fenchurch Street.

Yes I think they must have been mistaken. Can't see c2c losing the interchanges possible at West Ham and Limehouse, especially with the DLR.

West Ham and Limehouse are not the be all and end all as far as this is concerned. Stratford has interchange with both Jubilee Line and DLR routes to the Isle of Dogs and Excel. There was a paper many years ago now titled which street for Southend. I think Liverpool Street was seen as the better station particularly with interchange and at night time.

During times of disruption c2c have an agreement to run up to 6 tph into LST during peak. This only applies if trains can't actually get to FST for whatever reason. When this happens the agreement states that TFL rail cancel 6 services in exchange.

That's what c2c Delivery Director told us at the last passenger panel meeting.


Couldn't there be more use of Gas Factory Junction? That way services can see run to/from Fenchchurch Street, but with the benefit of calling at Stratford.

I can't believe that c2c would have rights as described above to six paths per hour to / from Liverpool Street in the event of severe disruption in the peak. I would be interested to know how TfL Rail 'sell' that to their customers who's trains are already full to bursting and losing one train through the peak is bad enough nevermind six per hour.

 

[Busaholic]

With Transport for London having bitten off far more than they could chew in messing with the Aldgate gyratory system, only a masochist would now attempt a bus journey along the swathe due east along the Commercial and Barking Roads, even if they could find one still operating, so I would imagine c2c is being used more heavily as a local East London line at present, especially by those for whom the DLR is inconvenient or just too overcrowded.

 

[Wivenswold]

I think this is highly unlikely unless it's an off-peak/weekend thing. Firstly, there aren't enough peak paths between Forest Gate Junction and Pudding Mill where Crossrail will dive off.

Also, there won't be much spare peak capacity on the Metro platforms at LST either as the plan is (and I don't think it's changed) to run additional peak Crossrails to Shenfield from the mainline station.

Finally, 3 of the Metro platforms at LST are 8 coach only.

LTS and latterly C2C has always attracted crazy ideas (anyone remember the guided bus route and tram ideas in the 90's?).

 

[306024]

I think this is highly unlikely unless it's an off-peak/weekend thing. Firstly, there aren't enough peak paths between Forest Gate Junction and Pudding Mill where Crossrail will dive off.

Also, there won't be much spare peak capacity on the Metro platforms at LST either as the plan is (and I don't think it's changed) to run additional peak Crossrails to Shenfield from the mainline station.

Finally, 3 of the Metro platforms at LST are 8 coach only.

There are additional Liverpool St (ML) - Gidea Park peak trains once the Shenfield service goes down the tube.

Platforms 16-18 at Liverpool St will be reconfigured after May 2019 from 3 X 8 20m car platforms to 2 X 10 20m car platforms, so that 9 car class 345s will be able to run to Liverpool St on the Gidea Park peak trains. Should the central section be blocked for any reason it also means trains can run to Liverpool St rather than tip everyone out at Stratford.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just quickly on the codes issue. I have fixed the title so it's clear now what's being referred to. If you see thread titles or posts which you don't understand the station codes being used please feel free to report (

) them and we'll happily sort things out.

Just on a more general note the Forum Rules do quite clearly state that:

Accessible

• Please remember many members do not understand rail “jargon” (including acronyms, station codes and specialist terms). Such terms should be correctly defined the first time they are used; codes and abbreviations must not be made up.

Obviously it can be hard to work out which bits of 'jargon' should always be defined and which don't need to be but when it comes to station codes we do expect that the first use will always include a definition and that they never appear in thread titles.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled service

 

[chris11256]

West Ham and Limehouse are not the be all and end all as far as this is concerned. Stratford has interchange with both Jubilee Line and DLR routes to the Isle of Dogs and Excel. There was a paper many years ago now titled which street for Southend. I think Liverpool Street was seen as the better station particularly with interchange and at night time.



I can't believe that c2c would have rights as described above to six paths per hour to / from Liverpool Street in the event of severe disruption in the peak. I would be interested to know how TfL Rail 'sell' that to their customers who's trains are already full to bursting and losing one train through the peak is bad enough nevermind six per hour.

I don't know the reality of this, thats just what we were told. It must work to an extent. A few months ago there was a bit of plastic that caught fire on the overhead lines between West Ham & Limehouse(during morning peak). There we're 6 trains diverted into Liverpool Street. The rest terminated at Barking. Was horrendous though. LU trains were leaving Barking full to bursting.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

C2C route map suggests some services run Fenchurch Street - Stratford - Barking but I can't see that in their timetable?

 

[chris11256]

C2C route map suggests some services run Fenchurch Street - Stratford - Barking but I can't see that in their timetable?

It's not normally done in regular service. Mainly in times of disruption(to avoid problems at West Ham) or a special service.

 

[Class 170101]

C2C route map suggests some services run Fenchurch Street - Stratford - Barking but I can't see that in their timetable?

It's not normally done in regular service. Mainly in times of disruption(to avoid problems at West Ham) or a special service.

One Monday to Thursday for a week operating next month
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F58630/2016/02/01/advanced

 

[Kite159]

One Monday to Thursday for a week operating next month
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F58630/2016/02/01/advanced

Thanks

 

[jopsuk]

(tongue somewhat in cheek) I've said before tht what the GEML needs is an extra pair of tracks- all the way to Ipswich really, but at least Stratford-Shenfield, with the extra pair being for Intercity services. Oh, and an extra pair into Liverpool Street from Bethnal Green, but that's a different matter. So maybe it needs to be eight track from Forest Gate Junction to Bow Junction, with new platforms for C2C at Stratford High Level, re-double down to Gas Factory Junction and even re-open Bow Station to give interchange with Bow Road (to make up for District/H&C interchange lost by not calling at West Ham) and Bow Church DLR - maybe joining them into a single "Bow" complex? Leave running into Liverpool Street to be just for engineering works and route retention diagrams. Have crossovers at Stratford allowing C2C services to terminate there during disruption rather than taking peak Liverpool Street paths