CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[oglord]

It would have to be Newport Queensway now that dual carriageway has been built between the station and the High Street!

BAH!!!

 

[BenBracken]

A lot of cancellations in west Wales today. Listed as ‘train fault’ and ‘power supply failure’. Any ideas as to what the faults are?

 

[Bikeman78]

If you board an international train in Europe there will generally be announcements in both languages on both sides of the border.

Conversely, the Belgians don't bother with dual language announcements on trains that cross the language border, e.g. you won't hear any French at Leuven on a train going to Liege. When the train approaches Liege, the announcement will be in French only. Brussels is officially dual language so all announcements are in French and Dutch.

Agreed on all 3 points - however I understand the county is now known as Newport the same as the city is so they probably use Gwent as a name as they could hardly say Newport Newport.

No different to New York, New York.

 

[Krokodil]

No different to New York, New York.

Is there another New York that might cause confusion?

 

[Dai Corner]

Is there another New York that might cause confusion?

Another six in the USA, also one in Mexico,one in Honduras and two in Jamaica. As far as I know, none have a Minster, an Archbishop, a Shambles and a railway museum.

 

[nigelsporne]

Has anyone any idea what was on the Donnington move this morning please?

 

[ajay1071]

The English announcements “outside of England” are to enable to vast majority of customers on the train to understand the announcement. “Welsh people do cross the border” suggests those people would no longer understand announcements if they were in English. English is also one of two official languages of Wales and the Senedd. According to 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population of Wales aged three or older was 17.8% (538,300 people) and nearly three quarters of the population in Wales said they had no Welsh language skills. Of those Welsh speakers, none don’t also speak English.

It’s only used in Wales because the Welsh government want to keep it going, which is fair enough, but there’s no actual need for Welsh announcements in terms of wayfinding, or certainly in England anyway.


To make sure everyone can understand where they’re going, like how French passengers on a train that’s just arrived into Italy might not know Italian, but as I said, there is nobody that will arrive into Crewe on a Cardiff Manchester service and require Welsh announcements to know where they are.


Bridgend was just an example. It does it at Valley before Holyhead, Johnston before Milford Hvn, etc. It’s not a major problem, but it does contribute to yet more noise pollution. “Only” is enough.

Yes indeed it is encouraged by the Welsh Government, but the use of the language is increasing , the demand for Welsh medium school education is overtaking the placements available. New Welsh schools are in development to meet the increasing demand and that is not just in the rural parts but cities such as swansea.

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes indeed it is encouraged by the Welsh Government, but the use of the language is increasing , the demand for Welsh medium school education is overtaking the placements available. New Welsh schools are in development to meet the increasing demand and that is not just in the rural parts but cities such as swansea.

We're going off topic here but remember they're oversubscribed partly because they are better funded than English medium schools.

 

[yorkie]

Ok we are going to have to say please stick to the units themselves.

We will try to split the thread if we can, but it could be a lot of work; we do totally understand people want to talk about indirectly related matters, however we do kindly ask that people create new threads to discuss these.

Thanks

 

[nigelsporne]

Has anyone any idea what was on the Donnington move this morning please?

Answering my own post
This was 197028 and 37. Off to Long Marston.

 

[Resilient741]

Has anyone any idea what was on the Donnington move this morning please?

I saw it pass Walsall. There were 2 x 2 Car 197s in consist no numbers visible

 

[BenBracken]

At least the arrivals from Ireland have something from the 21st century to greet them now. Went from a HST to a pacer in a very short space of time, was pretty embarrassing, especially as IE had a major investment in new units on the other side.

 

[RobK]

Does anyone know the identity of the two 197's which were transferred from Donnington to Long Marston yesterday. They went past me in Darlaston, Walsall and I couldn't see any numbers.
The reporting number was 7Q94 which was lead by 37884 with 37218 on the rear.
Many thanks

I saw it pass Walsall. There were 2 x 2 Car 197s in consist no numbers visible

It was 37884 leadinf=g with 37218 on the back. No idea of the unit numbers. They don't have carriage numbers.

 

[berneyarms]

Does anyone know the identity of the two 197's which were transferred from Donnington to Long Marston yesterday. They went past me in Darlaston, Walsall and I couldn't see any numbers.
The reporting number was 7Q94 which was lead by 37884 with 37218 on the rear.
Many thanks


It was 37884 leadinf=g with 37218 on the back. No idea of the unit numbers. They don't have carriage numbers.

Post 7060 above answers your question.

 

[jamiearmley]

Believe it's now due to be on Monday. There's plenty avaliable, just something else which I'm not aware of.

Realtime Trains | 2E04 0530 Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock | 10/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 2E04 0530 departure from Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock on 10/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197006 is now allocated as the first 197 to run in passenger service on the Pembroke Dock line tomorrow, Monday the 10th of June. I'm sure it'll be a great surprise to people on the line compared to the sprinters!

It is indeed a great surprise.

A great surprise to discover just how horrendously bad these units are on jointed track.

I've travelled on this line on a variety of first generation slam door DMMUs, the sprinter fleet from their introduction, the Pacers and also the HST, for nigh on 40 years. All had their good and bad points - but none are as poor riding on jointed track as this 197 is today.

They are quieter, yes.

However, the impact of each track joint goes through the entire train, causing all the plastic fixtures and fittings to shake and squeak.

I feel like I have been punched repeatedly in my back and my rear.

The one advantage over the 150/153/143/142 is that there is less engine noise - but that is wiped out by the horrendous ride.

Overall, it's a downgrade - which is very sad.

That said, on the short CWR sections between Narberth and Whitland, the ride was far better.

Still doesn't beat a 158 tho.

 

[Jez]

I noticed on the Conwy Valley a few weeks ago the ride quality was bad at certain points. I find it okay on the main line routes by and large. It helps if you don't sit over the bogies.

I have yet to ride one on the Pembroke line but intend having a trip to Tenby in July. Hopefully it will be a 197 so I can test out the ride quality.

 

[Lurcheroo]

However, the impact of each track joint goes through the entire train, causing all the plastic fixtures and fittings to shake and squeak.

I feel like I have been punched repeatedly in my back and my rear.

The one advantage over the 150/153/143/142 is that there is less engine noise - but that is wiped out by the horrendous ride.

Overall, it's a downgrade - which is very sad.

There is a section of rail on the Cambrian that is incredibly rough to ride over on a 158 so I dread to think how a 197 would take it. I was told by one of the drivers at the depot that drove the 197’s on test that when they were first taken onto the Cambrian for testing that at one point the CAF engineer thought they had de-railed as it was so rough. I also heard that things had been shaken loose on them including a headlight!! I wasn’t there so can’t confirm to what extent any of this happened.

However, since then, we have seen a lot of the Cambrian mainline, particularly the sections with higher line speeds, have it’s jointed rail replaced with CWR and there’s still more ongoing I believe.

The rough riding complaint seems to be the same across most of the UK CAF stock, the 195,196,197,331 and even the MK5a’s. What doesn’t seem to get the complaint are the TPE 397’s and I’d love to know why. Track condition on the routes they operate ? Or a different suspension / bogey setup maybe ?

There are of course some other benefits to the 197’s compared to the old fleets such as improved air conditioning, improved passenger information systems (and hopefully they’ll be even better when the changes come through in the coming months), improved performance meaning either reduced journey times or greater ability to make up time when services are delayed, reduced emissions, more carriages available, greater fleet flexibility and selfishly a much nicer drivers seat.

I notice today that the services through whitland are 2 or 3 car whereas when I looked before the 197’s went there it was either 1 or 2 cars so that’s should be a nice capacity improvement.

Some of these benefits will be un-noticed. With the previous fleets, if you were due a 4 car 158 and 1 unit failed on depot and all that was spare was a 2 car 175 then you were only getting a 2 car. Now if those 3 units are 197’s you’d still get a 4car.

 

[jamiearmley]

That's a fair response

Re ride quality : I spend most of my working week, working on 195s. This 197 is far far worse. We are now on cwr, and the ride quality is shocking, as is the vibration and rattle.

Re 'improved passenger information systems' : aside from all the improvements to come, which I have read about and am glad to see : they aren't 'improved'. They are intrusive, often inaccurate, and as I saw today, crew seem either unwilling or unable to jump in with a manual announcement to correct misinformation., which led , today, to the entire train disembarking - and then being shouted at to get back on as if it was somehow our fault that the screens announced the service termination.

There's a lot of benefits to these units : it's just sad that we have spent so much money on a product that should be far superior than it actually is.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Re ride quality : I spend most of my working week, working on 195s. This 197 is far far worse. We are now on cwr, and the ride quality is shocking, as is the vibration and rattle.

That’s interesting to know ! I’m sure I’ve seen a few people say the opposite, specifically that the 197’s are better than the 195’s for that but I can’t remember where to verify.
I Wonder if the 195’s have bedded in a bit more and the rides become a bit softer ?

Re 'improved passenger information systems' : aside from all the improvements to come, which I have read about and am glad to see : they aren't 'improved'. They are intrusive, often inaccurate, and as I saw today, crew seem either unwilling or unable to jump in with a manual announcement to correct misinformation., which led , today, to the entire train disembarking - and then being shouted at to get back on as if it was somehow our fault that the screens announced the service termination.

The systems are massively improved and monumentally more capable than the old ones, but totally agree they have not yet been well used. The announcements drove me mad on them haha! Especially if you’d been pulling up to a red and slowed down (but not stopped) then once you accelerated away again it would start another announcement.
One the post on our internal social media they specifically said they have much more capability that they are still learning how to use and are looking at doing things like providing travel advice for special events and things like that.
I personally look forward to the fact that they will be able to display separate destinations for splitting services which we do many of on the Cambrian as it will help to avoid confusion. The 158’s can only display 1 destination so you set it to Aberystwyth and then I would make manual announcements to say the service divides at Machynlleth and the front 2 are for Aber and rear 2 Pwllheli but people had no idea where in the train they were to begin haha !

There's a lot of benefits to these units : it's just sad that we have spent so much money on a product that should be far superior than it actually is.

I agree there. TPE’s class 397’s prove that CAF can provide single leaf end doors with vestibules and toilets outside of the saloon on the Civity platform in the UK. If those could be done with diesel or bi-mode with the 197’s cab design then we’d have been on for a real winner.

 

[jamiearmley]

I Wonder if the 195’s have bedded in a bit more and the rides become a bit softer ?

Well..... When they first came, we had the ride quality. There wasn't any. That took everyone by surprise tbh - these things were supposed to be better than the Pacers they replaced. Still, that was quickly overshadowed by the realisation that the toilet header tanks were insufficient to last a day in traffic. With only 1 toilet per set, and few tanking locations, a recipe for disaster. At least with a pacer, the toilet door didn't lock out of use and the toilet emptied itself of liquid by gravity. We all started looking fondly out of the window at the lines of withdrawn pacers.

We were quickly distracted from this by the manually operated cab doors flying open in traffic, breaking interlock and causing brake applications. Literally hundreds of incidents. A combination of a poor design and a rough ride. Not to worry, we then had the ceiling panels, - by that time vibrated to all hell due to the poor ride quality - falling from the ceiling onto passengers. Always fun.

Add in the hopeless air conditioning, the temperamental computer with it's spurious and CONSTANT faults, the poor 'assembly' quality (oh, has it/they fallen off again, driver? Just pop it in the cubbyhole lad, we will get around to it), the horrendous sound quality on the p.a., the ridiculous placement of call for aid buttons which results in every drunk train now being a 'ringing nightmare', literally every part of the interior fittings squeaking like a rusty hinge, and the units total inability to gain traction during a light drizzle and it all pales into insignificance, to be fair.

I liked the 197 : I thought it was miles better than the 195 in pretty much every way. Announcements, yes, ridiculous, but being fixed.
However, today really upset me I guess, because I found out that they - or at least that unit - are pretty rubbish after all.

 

[Italianauto]

it's just sad that we have spent so much money on a product that should be far superior than it actually is.

I am finding I am rarely willing to stump up the relatively high cost of a rail fare with this train and an available car given it's assemblage of mediocre kit; intrusive PIS, relentless lighting, upright rigid seats and 50 pence wheels. More consistent and greater capacity and working air con will of course be a major benefit to many, but the product that will underpin this has been a lost opportunity.

 

[Krokodil]

To be fair, the seats on 197s are significantly better than most units of the same generation.

 

[jamiearmley]

To be fair, the seats on 197s are significantly better than most units of the same generation.

Agreed.

 

[Italianauto]

To be fair, the seats on 197s are significantly better than most units of the same generation.

Whatever seat has been fitted to the Pendolino shows what could have been, bearing in mind that a Cl197 also runs longer journeys. Conscious views on seats are divergent, but this offers no utility over a Cl195 seat for me due to no flex (metal frame) and angle. if it's the same seat as the Hitachi fleets, some Trip Advisor reviews also highlight the discomfort.

 

[Krokodil]

It's the same frame as the Hitachis but much better cushions.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Whatever seat has been fitted to the Pendolino shows what could have been, bearing in mind that a Cl197 also runs longer journeys. Conscious views on seats are divergent, but this offers no utility over a Cl195 seat for me due to no flex (metal frame) and angle. if it's the same seat as the Hitachi fleets, some Trip Advisor reviews also highlight the discomfort.

It's the same frame as the Hitachis but much better cushions.

I've done a much longer trip (Preston to Crewe if I recall correctly) on a refurbished Pendolino than I have on a class 197 (Shrewsbury to Wem), so admit I need to give the 197 seat a longer test, but the seats on both seemed rather concrete to me. I think the longest trip I've done on an 80x is Carmarthen to Cardiff Central with GWR and this was very unsatisfactory given the hardness of the seats. After that I've actually started to aim for Voyagers (where they share routes) to avoid 80x, 390 and 19x - as awful as they are at least if you can get a seat (ie. reservations are a must) a Voyager (or unrefurbished Pendolino) actually has some seat padding.

 

[Jez]

Is there a shortage of 197s today? I noticed a single 153 is on the Pembroke diagram that starts at Cardiff. There appears to be a single 153 on a Maesteg service also along with with a pair of 153s and a 150 on another 2 Maesteg diagrams.

Anyone able to advise how many 197s diagrams there are currently and how many are uncovered? Thanks.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Is there a shortage of 197s today? I noticed a single 153 is on the Pembroke diagram that starts at Cardiff. There appears to be a single 153 on a Maesteg service also along with with a pair of 153s and a 150 on another 2 Maesteg diagrams.

Anyone able to advise how many 197s diagrams there are currently and how many are uncovered? Thanks.

I’m not very well versed in this so someone may come along and correct me but it seems there are 23 2 car diagrams and it seems there is a 150 and a 158 covering 2 of them and a 3 car covering another.

It then seems there are 17 3 car diagrams with 2 uncovered and 1 covered by a 2 car.

 

[Roger B]

None of those yet, 124 was supposed to be accepted a few days back and made it to Chester but seems to have returned to Crewe South Yard.

119 and 121 have been delivered to Crewe ATC and have started mileage/test runs, 123 i believe has been reported as at Crewe too but not sure about where 126 is.

Seems to have gone rather quiet over the past couple of weeks or so - would've expected at least 124 to be in service by now, possibly with 119 & 121. Has something gone amiss - perhaps priority is being given to keeping units in service that have already been accepted. Any expectation when of when more units will be accepted? Many thanks

 

[Anonymous10]

Is there a shortage of 197s today? I noticed a single 153 is on the Pembroke diagram that starts at Cardiff. There appears to be a single 153 on a Maesteg service also along with with a pair of 153s and a 150 on another 2 Maesteg diagrams.

Anyone able to advise how many 197s diagrams there are currently and how many are uncovered? Thanks.

Haverfordwest had a 4 coach 197 this morning to Manchester and Swansea has a 6 car to Cardiff at around 7pm, I wonder if they're trying to concentrate stock round cardiff for tomorrow's taylor swift concert.