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Can a diesel multiple unit be converted to become a bi-mode unit?

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Fyldeboy

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Is it technically possible to take a (say) 2 car DMU and have a new middle car built (with pantograph etc) to make a 3 car set that can be used in Electrified areas?
I assume facilities are still available for lots of units built in the last X? years to have production resurrected for centre cars?
 
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Snow1964

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It’s very inefficient if it has hydraulic or a geared or torque converter drive, as you need extra (electric) motors and might need a way of switching existing drive to have a neutral coasting facility (which might not be there).

Rather easier if it has electric drive, as all you need (in theory) is a way of converting line power to the controlled voltage the motors want.

Then there is problems of a newer coach which might have shorter lifespan (as end date same as existing train), so it’s cost has to be depreciated quicker. Therefore economics tend to look poor. This was one of the big negative factors when a similar proposal was made for the Virgin voyagers.

In reality there is a surplus of electric units (especially since Anglia and South West got big new fleets (still being delivered) and not really a surplus of diesel units (those being withdrawn are about 35 years old so life expired, or more strictly not worth spending money on to convert them.

It is more likely that the 1990s diesels (the turbostar generation) will get replaced by bi-modes when replaced in few years. With newer ones migrating to lines that have negligible electrification
 
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Domh245

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Is it technically possible to take a (say) 2 car DMU and have a new middle car built (with pantograph etc) to make a 3 car set that can be used in Electrified areas?
I assume facilities are still available for lots of units built in the last X? years to have production resurrected for centre cars?

Short answer: No

Long answer: Conversion from DMU to DEMU (with bimode capability) would require effectively replacing everything underneath the floor on the existing vehicles - not technically impossible but financially improbable.

If X = 4, then yes. Civity production line is still open so you'd be able to get additional vehicles built on that relatively easily, but anything before that (Turbostars, 175s, etc) are a non-starter
 

PeterC

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It’s very inefficient if it has hydraulic or a geared or torque converter drive, as you need extra (electric) motors and might need a way of switching existing drive to have a neutral coasting facility (which might not be there).

Rather easier if it has electric drive, as all you need (in theory) is a way of converting line power to the controlled voltage the motors want.

Then there is problems of a newer coach which might have shorter lifespan (as end date same as existing train), so it’s cost has to be depreciated quicker. Therefore economics tend to look poor. This was one of the big negative factors when a similar proposal was made for the Virgin voyagers.

In reality there is a surplus of electric units (especially since Anglia and South West got big new fleets (still being delivered) and not really a surplus of diesel units (those being withdrawn are about 35 years old so life expired, or more strictly not worth spending money on to convert them.

It is more likely that the 1990s diesels (the turbostar generation) will get replaced by bi-modes when replaced in few years. With newer ones migrating to lines that have negligible electrification
Could you go the other way and add a generator car to an EMU? I appreciate that it isn't quite that easy but to a layman still seems easier than the original idea.
 

squizzler

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Even now, there are hybrid engine "rafts" available for normal DMUs, either new build or replacement of the existing diesel package. These work like a hybrid car, in which the otherwise traditional drivechain incorporates a motor/generator and batteries to store power from braking to use during acceleration.

What if the electric motor on the hybrid raft was made bigger than strictly needed for the battery pack? Big enough that it was able to drive the unit by itself with the engine shut off? Not a wild idea, as even in motorcar-world there are plugin hybrids which can run exclusively electric for some trips, despite being more like traditional cars rather than electric cars with a "range extender" engine. The ones that spring to mind as I have seen them in the street are the Mitsubishi Outlander and the Toyota Prius.

Now imagine a pantrgraph/transformer car was cut into the hybrid DMU and a bus bar installed to take OLE power to the other cars of the unit, as per OP's suggestion. Maybe this transformer car could have powered bogies itself, to give more oomph under the wires?

Now what you have is hybrid train with the ability to use OLE electricity when available. I imagine this concept would suit predominantly unnelectrified routes with a small amount of electric running, since at heart it is a Diesel (mechanical) MU. Speculatively, all the mechanical stuff might make it more fragile than an EMU or DEMU. But on the flip side, being an evolution of traditional DMU and motor vehicle practice, it might be a lot cheaper to mass produce than proper DEMUs, and can be expected to be more easily retrofitted to existing DMUs.
 

JonasB

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Now imagine a pantrgraph/transformer car was cut into the hybrid DMU and a bus bar installed to take OLE power to the other cars of the unit, as per OP's suggestion. Maybe this transformer car could have powered bogies itself, to give more oomph under the wires?

Now what you have is hybrid train with the ability to use OLE electricity when available.

Stadler offers Flirt in a "trimode" version (catenary, battery or diesel), and if I'm not mistaken TfW have ordered some.
 

squizzler

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Stadler offers Flirt in a "trimode" version (catenary, battery or diesel), and if I'm not mistaken TfW have ordered some.
I fear you are missing the point. I understood the OP to be asking if existent DMUs (Turbostar, CAF built classes 19x, etc) can be reasonably converted to bi-modes.
 

Irascible

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You could theoretically replace the transmission ( gearbox, torque converter ) with a motor & the engine & fuel tank with battery, but who knows how practical that would be - there's ancilliaries as well, and you've basically just gutted the underfloor by then - and if you put a pan car in the middle you've got to install an electric bus to the motor cars which is not a minor operation. Everything up to the 170s is at minimum in mid-life, so I somewhat doubt it'd be worth even trying. That hybrid conversion of 165s is basically doing the drop-the-electric-car-in thing though, let's see how that goes.
 

apk55

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The easiest way of powering a unit by electric motors would be to swap the bogie for a standard EMU power bogie with bogie mounted motors driving the axles via simple spur gears. This is a low maintenance well tried and tested solution.
If you want a diesel generator unit it is normal to bolt the alternator directly to the crankshaft forming a nice compact power unit. Quite powerful underfloor sets have been made for example the ones used on class 319 conversion.
I very much doubt that a conversion box could be made that could fit in the space vacated by an existing mechanical transmission unit and then you would still have the higher maintenance drive system involving drive shafts with universal joints and tranfer gear boxes.

The demand for diesel or self powered units is going to shrink considerably over the next few years as electrification progresses (although I very much doubt the demand will totally disappear.)
Therefore I would suggest that all new diesel units are built as DEMU units with provision for conversion to either bi mode or even just an EMU. This would involve having one car with roof space for a pantograph and underfloor space for a transformer. These units could also be converted either to hybid, battery operation or even hydrogen operation quite easily.
 

Bletchleyite

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Long answer: Conversion from DMU to DEMU (with bimode capability) would require effectively replacing everything underneath the floor on the existing vehicles - not technically impossible but financially improbable.

Other than bogies, most of what's under the floor of 230s has been replaced.

Fundamentally if you can create an electric "power pack" that provides rotation at the same speed range and torque as the diesel power pack, then you can swap it in. Cutting a pantograph well without damaging the structure is probably the hardest bit. Probably only worth it with the newest DMUs like 195s, though.
 
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