Canada announces High Speed Rail

[williamn]

Announced today, though it feels like it’s been talked about for decades already, and I can imagine any incoming government of a different political persuasion cancelling it immediately…

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-announces-high-speed-rail-quebec-toronto-1.7462538

The Liberal government launched a six-year $3.9 billion design and development plan Wednesday that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says will eventually connect Quebec City and Toronto with a high-speed rail line.

"Today I'm announcing the launch of Alto, the largest infrastructure project in Canadian history," Trudeau said from Montreal. "A reliable, efficient, high-speed rail network will be a game-changer for Canadians."

Trudeau said the new rail network will run all-electric trains along 1,000 kilometres of track, reaching speeds of up to 300 km/hour, with stops in Toronto, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montréal, Laval, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City.

 

[Horizon22]

Seems like a very sensible corridor ripe for a high-speed rail line although whether the Liberal government would see this through is I believe doubtful considering these years elections.

Surely one station only would be suitable for a grand "Montreal-Laval" considering the geography of the line?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Seems like a very sensible corridor ripe for a high-speed rail line although whether the Liberal government would see this through is I believe doubtful considering these years elections.

Surely one station only would be suitable for a grand "Montreal-Laval" considering the geography of the line?

I think the Laval station would perhaps be the parkway station for those driving in from the suburbs to catch a train, and wanting to avoid parking in central Montreal.

 

[Austriantrain]

Don’t forget that Canadians will vote soon and it seems very unlikely that the Liberals will come out in front. ATM this is just pre-election politics.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

"... the largest infrastructure project in Canadian history," Trudeau said..."

So how does building the line from Toronto across Canada to Prince Rupert count in terms of large infrastructure projects or is that longest? It's getting towards 4000 Kms long I think and was built before modern machinery was available.

Will be interesting to see how this new proposal pans out in cost terms - Canada's HS2 equivalent!

 

[JonasB]

Don’t forget that Canadians will vote soon and it seems very unlikely that the Liberals will come out in front.

Not anymore, a lot has happened in the polls in the last few weeks.

 

[Grimsby town]

Will be interesting to see how this new proposal pans out in cost terms - Canada's HS2 equivalent!

It shouldn't require the expensive new stations and tunnels into city centres that HS2 needs given its only likely to be used by a few trains per hour.

Its desperately needed in Canada. I'm living there currently and took the train from Toronto to Ottawa and back again. Both journeys were over an hour late on a journey time that's already 4-5 hours. Toronto to Ottawa is only slightly further than Manchester to London. The passenger services really need to be operating on lines that aren't owned by private freight companies.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It shouldn't require the expensive new stations and tunnels into city centres that HS2 needs given its only likely to be used by a few trains per hour.

Its desperately needed in Canada. I'm living there currently and took the train from Toronto to Ottawa and back again. Both journeys were over an hour late on a journey time that's already 4-5 hours. Toronto to Ottawa is only slightly further than Manchester to London. The passenger services really need to be operating on lines that aren't owned by private freight companies.

Do you think there's room along the northern half of Hwy 404 and Hwy 407 east of the 404 interchange to leave the Greater Toronto Area without too much demolition anyway?

 

[Grimsby town]

Do you think there's room along the northern half of Hwy 404 and Hwy 407 east of the 404 interchange to leave the Greater Toronto Area without too much demolition anyway?

Personally I think they should use the existing alignment until around Oshawa. The route is currently 3/4 tracks and could probably made 4 tracks throughout. The linespeed isn't too bad at 80/90mph and freight trains don't rejoin until Pickering. Go Transit are planning electrification out to Oshawa too as well as increased frequency. It should be possible to accommodate both on the existing alignment. Building on a new alignment in the GTA will massively increase costs and not create a particularly fast line anyway.

Unfortunately Canada is probably worse than the UK for building transport infrastructure on time and on budget but it certainly seems to be more willing to build infrastructure than in the UK. There's 3 light rail lines, 1 metro line and 2 metro extensions being built in the GTA alone.

 

[ac6000cw]

"... the largest infrastructure project in Canadian history," Trudeau said..."

So how does building the line from Toronto across Canada to Prince Rupert count in terms of large infrastructure projects or is that longest? It's getting towards 4000 Kms long I think and was built before modern machinery was available.

The first transcontinental rail line was the Canadian Pacific Railway route to Vancouver, completed in 1885. In relation to the size of the Canadian economy at the time, that was a huge project (and basically built by hand as cheaply and quickly as possible, using locally available materials - hence using huge wooden trestles instead of stone or steel viaducts, 4% gradients on Kicking Horse Pass and no tunnelling over Rogers Pass).

The transcontinental route to Prince Rupert via Yellowhead Pass was built around 20 years later by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway (and AFAIK did use some construction machinery). That was nationalised in 1919 as part of the Canadian National Railway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Personally I think they should use the existing alignment until around Oshawa. The route is currently 3/4 tracks and could probably made 4 tracks throughout. The linespeed isn't too bad at 80/90mph and freight trains don't rejoin until Pickering. Go Transit are planning electrification out to Oshawa too as well as increased frequency. It should be possible to accommodate both on the existing alignment. Building on a new alignment in the GTA will massively increase costs and not create a particularly fast line anyway.

Unfortunately Canada is probably worse than the UK for building transport infrastructure on time and on budget but it certainly seems to be more willing to build infrastructure than in the UK. There's 3 light rail lines, 1 metro line and 2 metro extensions being built in the GTA alone.

Aren't they planning a stop in Peterborough though? So it would be more logical to head past Markham in my mind, instead of via Oshawa.

 

[Grimsby town]

Aren't they planning a stop in Peterborough though? So it would be more logical to head past Markham in my mind, instead of via Oshawa.

I think a stop at Peterborough would be planned but if you draw a straight line from Union station to Peterborough it goes through Northern Oshawa.

Previous plans for a line in that direction have suggested using the existing rail line to Peterborough through Scarborough. Personally I think that would be a slow and circuitous route and would need more investment such as a new connection from Union station and electrification.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's always nice to see more high-speed rail projects in development around the world, but as others have pointed out the upcoming elections may play a factor on how feasible the delivery might just be. If their conservatives are anything like their American counterparts they'll likely have a staunch opposition to the project. If it does come through though I would take a guess that it would be based on TGV technology as some kind of homage to the region's French heritage (Quebec City in particular) like we've seen on Morocco's high-speed rail system.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think a stop at Peterborough would be planned but if you draw a straight line from Union station to Peterborough it goes through Northern Oshawa.

Previous plans for a line in that direction have suggested using the existing rail line to Peterborough through Scarborough. Personally I think that would be a slow and circuitous route and would need more investment such as a new connection from Union station and electrification.

Which is why I suggested a new connection heading out via the Don Valley Parkway and Markham. The projected journey time Toronto to Peterborough is currently 40 mins I think, so it will inevitably all have to be new alignment anyway.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

If it does come through though I would take a guess that it would be based on TGV technology as some kind of homage to the region's French heritage (Quebec City in particular) like we've seen on Morocco's high-speed rail system.

SNCF is a partner in Cadence, the winning consortium, and Alstom is the only passenger rolling stock manufacturer with factories in Canada.

Cadence Consortium Selected to Transform Canadian Mobility with the Alto High-Speed Rail Project

/CNW/ - The Cadence team is proud to have been selected by the Government of Canada as the preferred private developer partner for the Alto rail project...

www.newswire.ca

 

[Sorcerer]

SNCF is a partner in Cadence, the winning consortium, and Alstom is the only passenger rolling stock manufacturer with factories in Canada.

Cadence Consortium Selected to Transform Canadian Mobility with the Alto High-Speed Rail Project

/CNW/ - The Cadence team is proud to have been selected by the Government of Canada as the preferred private developer partner for the Alto rail project...

www.newswire.ca

Well I'll be. I swear it was an educated guess.

 

[Austriantrain]

Not anymore, a lot has happened in the polls in the last few weeks.

Yes, but the Conservatives still seem to be in the lead.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

If their conservatives are anything like their American counterparts they'll likely have a staunch opposition to the project.

My impression is that Conservatives in Canada are more centrist than their counterparts in the US. In fact the last Conservative Party convention passed a resolution in favor of high speed rail. Although Pierre Poilievre the party leader has stated he is not bound to party members policy ideas.

 

[Sorcerer]

My impression is that Conservatives in Canada are more centrist than their counterparts in the US. In fact the last Conservative Party convention passed a resolution in favor of high speed rail. Although Pierre Poilievre the party leader has stated he is not bound to party members policy ideas.

That's somewhat hopeful then. While Pierre Poilivere may not be bound to party member policy ideas, Canada is a Parliamentary system rather than Presidential and thus it might be a lot easier to get such a project through compared to the US even if the party leader is against the idea. More so if it ends up in a coalition with a party that may also be in favour of it, but for now all we can do is make guesses. I am hoping Canada manages to get this passed sooner or later regardless.

 

[Acfb]

My impression is that Conservatives in Canada are more centrist than their counterparts in the US. In fact the last Conservative Party convention passed a resolution in favor of high speed rail. Although Pierre Poilievre the party leader has stated he is not bound to party members policy ideas.

We probably need a Canadian election thread to discuss this TBH. I would say it's quite complicated. Poillievre is quite right wing (although has focused on the economy and housing) but has forced the Liberal Party candidates for leader to reverse their carbon tax policy. Mark Carney (assuming he becomes leader on March 9th) should continue to help the Liberals in the polls but I still expect the Conservatives to be the largest party when the election comes.

 

[JonasB]

Yes, but the Conservatives still seem to be in the lead.

For now, but the trend looks very good for the Liberals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2025_Canadian_federal_election

 

[jamesontheroad]

Yes, but the Conservatives still seem to be in the lead.

For now, but the trend looks very good for the Liberals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2025_Canadian_federal_election

All bets are off. Mark Carney is the new Liberal leader and - given his personal ratings - can only continue the positive trend towards the Liberals. He is unusual in that he is from Western Canada which is not historically where the Liberal party does well.

In recent weeks, the party has reversed its political freefall, sharply rebounding to such a degree that a previously expected Conservative majority in the next general election looks increasingly unlikely.

The shift in the polls has been so dramatic that pollsters have struggled to find any historical precedent.

In a leaked memo, the leftwing federal New Democratic party recently warned its members Carney would probably call a snap election within days of winning the leadership race, capitalising on his rising popularity and depriving the opposition parties the rich political optics of bringing down the Liberal government through a vote of non-confidence to force an election.

The move in the polls is, in part, explained by repeated threats by Trump to annex Canada. In polling, Carney is widely viewed as the most trusted federal leader to navigate the current trade crisis because of his extensive economic background.

 

[Acfb]

All bets are off. Mark Carney is the new Liberal leader and - given his personal ratings - can only continue the positive trend towards the Liberals. He is unusual in that he is from Western Canada which is not historically where the Liberal party does well.

Mark Carney will need to call an election really quickly I think or else the Liberal ratings could easily deflate. I'm still slightly sceptical that the Liberals can pull it off as most of the Liberal gains are coming from the NDP. On the other hand apart from electoral gravity/Trudeau being around too long I'm really not sure what anyone sees in Poillievre personally, he seems very inauthentic and makes Stephen Harper seem like a collusus. There is also the question of what riding Carney stands in. Does he choose a safe Liberal Riding in Ottawa or does he take a risk and stand in a marginal riding in somewhere like Edmonton which he would not be guaranteed to win.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Mark Carney will need to call an election really quickly I think or else the Liberal ratings could easily deflate. I'm still slightly sceptical that the Liberals can pull it off as most of the Liberal gains are coming from the NDP. On the other hand apart from electoral gravity/Trudeau being around too long I'm really not sure what anyone sees in Poillievre personally, he seems very inauthentic and makes Stephen Harper seem like a collusus. There is also the question of what riding Carney stands in. Does he choose a safe Liberal Riding in Ottawa or does he take a risk and stand in a marginal riding in somewhere like Edmonton which he would not be guaranteed to win.

He's from Yellowknife I think, so North West Territories could be an option.

 

[duncombec]

He's from Yellowknife I think, so North West Territories could be an option.

Fort Smith, but it would arguably depend on whether their existing Liberal MP wanted to stand down.

Anywhere in Alberta would be a borderline idiotic choice, even though Fort Smith basically borders Alberta. Alberta is deeply, deeply conservative (lots of memes suggesting Alberta could be swapped for Minnesota or California), and there hasn't even been a Liberal Provincial MLA for the current and last periods, and only one member before that (voted out in 2019 along with most of the NDP). In the federal House of Commons, it has two MPs, neither of whom are in safe seats, both of whom would not have won were the new boundaries for this election in place - by contrast, both "local" Ridings bordering NWT voted in the high 60s% Conservative.

I suspect m/any Liberal gains (or not losses) in western Canada will be at the expense of the NDP.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Fort Smith, but it would arguably depend on whether their existing Liberal MP wanted to stand down.

Anywhere in Alberta would be a borderline idiotic choice, even though Fort Smith basically borders Alberta. Alberta is deeply, deeply conservative (lots of memes suggesting Alberta could be swapped for Minnesota or California), and there hasn't even been a Liberal Provincial MLA for the current and last periods, and only one member before that (voted out in 2019 along with most of the NDP). In the federal House of Commons, it has two MPs, neither of whom are in safe seats, both of whom would not have won were the new boundaries for this election in place - by contrast, both "local" Ridings bordering NWT voted in the high 60s% Conservative.

I suspect m/any Liberal gains (or not losses) in western Canada will be at the expense of the NDP.

I agree about Alberta - have a lot of family in a small town between Edmonton and Calgary. Even in an urban riding, it's too risky.
The existing North West Territories MP could be moved to a safer riding if they wanted.
I don't think the NDP will lose anything in Western Canada - they may well make gains in Alberta and Manitoba. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[mad_rich]

Carney would be mad not to call a snap election. Momentum is with the Liberals, and the ‘Maple Maga’ label on Pollievre is hitting home. He’s too Trumpy.

Another reason is that it heads off the inevitable ‘Governor Carney is an unelected dictator’ jibe from south of the border.

Either way, I don’t imagine high speed rail will be high on the agenda right now.

 

[Andover]

All bets are off.

I should hope not, I've got some money on him!

Fort Smith, but it would arguably depend on whether their existing Liberal MP wanted to stand down.

Anywhere in Alberta would be a borderline idiotic choice, even though Fort Smith basically borders Alberta. Alberta is deeply, deeply conservative (lots of memes suggesting Alberta could be swapped for Minnesota or California), and there hasn't even been a Liberal Provincial MLA for the current and last periods, and only one member before that (voted out in 2019 along with most of the NDP). In the federal House of Commons, it has two MPs, neither of whom are in safe seats, both of whom would not have won were the new boundaries for this election in place - by contrast, both "local" Ridings bordering NWT voted in the high 60s% Conservative.

I suspect m/any Liberal gains (or not losses) in western Canada will be at the expense of the NDP.

I was quite surprised how little controversy there seems to have been about a Prime Minister from outwith the Commons, and who appears to have little interest in entering it ahead of the dissolution.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

If there isn't any controversy, that would be because Carney is expected to call an election immediately.

Carney is widely expected to call an election within days, reflecting both the urgency of Canada’s trade war with the United States, and the awkward reality that as prime minister without a seat in parliament, he is unable to attend sessions of the House of Commons.

First, however, Trudeau must visit the governor general – the largely ceremonial representative of King Charles – and officially tender his resignation. Carney will then swear oaths of office and allegiance and form a cabinet. This is expected to happen in the coming days.

After his meeting with Trudeau, Carney said the transition “will be seamless and it will be quick.’

Under Canadian law, an election period must be at least 37 days and no more than 51 days, with the vote falling on a Monday. Party insiders have indicated Canadians will probably vote on 28 April or 5 May.

Canada’s designated PM Mark Carney meets Trudeau as Trump threat looms

Former central banker won landslide victory in Liberal party race as trade war with US hastens transfer of power

www.theguardian.com

 

[JonasB]

Anywhere in Alberta would be a borderline idiotic choice, even though Fort Smith basically borders Alberta. Alberta is deeply, deeply conservative (lots of memes suggesting Alberta could be swapped for Minnesota or California), and there hasn't even been a Liberal Provincial MLA for the current and last periods, and only one member before that (voted out in 2019 along with most of the NDP).

To get the thread slightly more back on topic, that's interesting considering that Alberta really could gain a lot from a decent rail system.