Cardiff (CYS, CDQ or CDF) to Liverpool (preferably LIV)

[andypops]

Hi all,

I hope somebody can help me!

I use the route above (usually Cathays [[stn]CYS[/stn]] to Liverpool Lime St [stn]LIV[/stn]]) quite regularly, and so far have paid walk up fares for an off-peak open return. I use a YP railcard. My typical journey consists of

Friday afternoon
1415 [stn]CYS[/stn] --> [stn]CDF[/stn] (ATW)
1431 [stn]CDF[/stn] --> [stn]CRE[/stn] (ATW [stn]MIL[/stn]-[stn]MAN[/stn])
Next available [stn]CRE[/stn] --> [stn]LIV[/stn] (usually LM [stn]BHM[/stn]-[stn]LIV[/stn])

Due to the default change times at [stn]CRE[/stn] on the NR website, the option to use the LM service is not always present. However, as the change only requires you to simply cross platforms (even the stopping points are the same), it is usually possible to make the LM service timetabled ~ 5 mins after the ATW.

The return journey
Monday morning
0831 LIV --> CRE (LM LIV-BHM)
Next available CRE --> CDF (usually ATW MAN-MIL)
Next available CDF --> CYS

My questions are:
(1) what is the validity of the off peak open return sold to me as a walk-up fare with regards to using the 0831 service (or earlier) LM services from LIV on the Monday morning? I have asked each time at the ticket offices, and they assure me that it is fine (ATW only have a person with an Avantix at CYS, and they have said in the past "It must be fine, the only open return I can sell you is off peak." Just how true is this?). I have not yet been challenged by the LM guard, and the NR, LM and ATW websites all give the option to book seats on this service with the off peak open return. But obviously I would like to know!

(2) Am I able to use the off peak open return on other services from LIV (i.e. Between 0700-0930)?

(3) Is the LM section of my route subject to their UPFN strategy, i.e. If I get this wrong, could I be subject to UPFN / MG11?

(4) Are there any other ways of travelling on the same route at the same times as I have give, but at a cheaper cost? I have looked at split ticketting (splitting at Npt, Abergavenny, Hfd, Shrews,CRE) but I can't see any appreciable difference. As stated above, I use a YP railcard.

(5) Would travelling via Chester instead of Crewe give me any savings? I do not like this route so much as the chester-LIV section is horrible IMHO.

I would appreciate any (and all) help with this!


Andy

 

[bb21]

I use the route above (usually [CYS] to [LIV]) quite regularly, and so far have paid walk up fares for an off-peak open return.

It is best not to use the term "open return" when referring to Off-Peak Returns. What used to be Standard Open Return is now renamed Anytime Return and it can cause unnecessary confusion when used incorrectly. It is best to use the current name as it is.

(1) what is the validity of the off peak open return sold to me as a walk-up fare with regards to using the 0831 service (or earlier) LM services from LIV on the Monday morning?

The restriction code for the Cathays - Liverpool Stations Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return is 8A, which permits travel at any time. The same restriction code applies to Cardiff Central - Liverpool Stations Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return and Cardiff Queen Street - Liverpool Stations Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return. You may not break your outbound journey on these tickets.

(ATW only have a person with an Avantix at CYS, and they have said in the past "It must be fine, the only open return I can sell you is off peak." Just how true is this?).

This is correct. The only standard class return fare for these flows is the Off-Peak Return.

(2) Am I able to use the off peak open return on other services from LIV (i.e. Between 0700-0930)?

Yes, provided that you are travelling on a permitted route.

(3) Is the LM section of my route subject to their UPFN strategy, i.e. If I get this wrong, could I be subject to UPFN / MG11?

You cannot be penalty-fared if you have an invalid ticket due to a time-restriction. The correct course of action is for the guard to excess your ticket to a fare that permits travel at that time. Given that the Off-Peak Return you enquired about is valid at any time, this is a moot point. If you cannot pay the excess at the time, you will be issued a UPFN (UnPaid Fares Notice), which is simply a document to say that you have not paid your fare and will be allowed to do so within a reasonable time frame. Being issued a UPFN does not imply that you're guilty of anything.)

If the guard/RPI suspect that you intend to avoid paying the correct fare, he/she will have the choice to caution you and file an MG11.

 

[andypops]

It is best not to use the term "open return" when referring to Off-Peak Returns. What used to be Standard Open Return is now renamed Anytime Return and it can cause unnecessary confusion when used incorrectly. It is best to use the current name as it is.

My apologies for this. Old habbits die hard, and I am admittedly still confused (as are many others!) by the change to the terms!

Thank you for your thorough, prompt and helpful advice, answering all of the points I had

All the best,


Andy

 

[First class]

Nevertheless,

Cardiff to Gobowen £37.15 (1 month return, valid any time)

Gobowen to Newton le Willows/St Helens Central/Earlestown £7.85 (1 month return, valid any time AFTER 10AM)
(This is valid via Liverpool)

Total: £45.20 (saving about £4)


Otherwise Cardiff to Liverpool is £48.80

(These fares will change in January 2011. The Gobowen-St Helens fare is an anomaly so will increase a bit more than usual).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Gobowen to St Helens Central would fall foul of the £12 minimum fare before 10am for Y-P railcard-discounted tickets on the return journey though. Another split point with a small saving is Hartford, but this has similar problems for the return journey.

 

[First class]

edit - r/cd being used

My split offered above has been revised to consider you using a railcard.

 

[andypops]

Again, thanks to all.

I think I will stick with the walk-up fare CDF(or suburban station) to LIV. It seems to give me the best trade off of savings and flexibility, which I don't think is adequately made up for by splitting or purchasing advance tickets.

Many thanks to all of you who have posted suggestions.


Andy