Carstairs remodelling?

[Senex]

Included in the DfT announcement of the new arrangement with Virgin Trains is:

"The company has also committed to working with Network Rail, communities and stakeholders to look at how further improvements in journey times can be made from London to Scotland. This includes work to remodel Carstairs junction – a significant bottleneck on the network."

Does anyone know what the current thinking about Carstairs is, and whether it still includes the possible restoration of the original line from Float Jn towards Edinburgh?

(Interesting too to note that it's apparently only London that deserves better times to and from Scotland -- not Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool.)

 

[swt_passenger]

On the last point, I hope that London-Scotland travel times via Edinburgh and ECML, and Edinburgh via WCML will be included in any improvements. Carstairs is not much of a problem as it is when travelling to/from Glasgow on the WCML.

Why would this announcement have any possible relevance to the ECML?

 

[yorkie]

(Interesting too to note that it's apparently only London that deserves better times to and from Scotland -- not Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool.)

Virgin Trains services between Birmingham & Scotland are mostly now extended to run London - Scotland via Birmingham.

Virgin Trains do not operate any services from Liverpool/Manchester to Birmingham.

Any speed improvements through Carstairs will benefit all operators and all destinations.

 

[cle]

Be good to hear some more info on Carstairs and possible journey time savings - also, how it might futureproof for, or consider, HS2.

 

[ac6000cw]

As I rarely travel that way, what are the problems/limitations with Carstairs at present ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

As I rarely travel that way, what are the problems/limitations with Carstairs at present ?

WCML to Edinburgh trains have to go along a ~250m radius curve which severely limits their speed. There is a long-disused rail alignment nearby which would smooth this curve out perfectly and these junction improvements almost certainly will involve reinstating it. This alignment is extremely visible on Google Maps if you want to have a look.

 

[PhilipW]

As I rarely travel that way, what are the problems/limitations with Carstairs at present ?

The Carlisle - Carstairs - Edinburgh route is very slow

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Why would this announcement have any possible relevance to the ECML?

I would have thought it quite clear - ECML and WCML services from Glasgow share the route as far as Carstairs. Someone will doubtless be able to remind me what is the current line speed for WCML traffic through Carstairs after the last remodelling, but it is a helluva lot faster than the traffic to/from Edinburgh enjoys. It would be unfortunate if the joint planning announced by Virgin was of benefit only to that particular part of Carstairs.

Until recent years, there was a two hourly ECML Glasgow - London service through Carstairs. Who is to say that the current token one-service-per-day provision might not be increased again in the future?

I remain, sir, quite unrepentant for championing the relevance for consideration of ECML needs through Carstairs.

 

[cle]

WCML to Edinburgh trains have to go along a ~250m radius curve which severely limits their speed. There is a long-disused rail alignment nearby which would smooth this curve out perfectly and these junction improvements almost certainly will involve reinstating it. This alignment is extremely visible on Google Maps if you want to have a look.

How much time would this save? Could WCML to Edinburgh become competitive against the ECML with a fast stopping pattern (Preston, Carlisle, Edinburgh) ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I would have thought it quite clear - ECML and WCML services from Glasgow share the route as far as Carstairs. Someone will doubtless be able to remind me what is the current line speed for WCML traffic through Carstairs after the last remodelling, but it is a helluva lot faster than the traffic to/from Edinburgh enjoys. It would be unfortunate if the joint planning announced by Virgin was of benefit only to that particular part of Carstairs.

Until recent years, there was a two hourly ECML Glasgow - London service through Carstairs. Who is to say that the current token one-service-per-day provision might not be increased again in the future?

I remain, sir, quite unrepentant for championing the relevance for consideration of ECML needs through Carstairs.

I don't disagree with your logic, but this announcement is solely about the WCML franchise. Your proposal would have to be be in a Network RUS or similar. In any case, wasn't the ECML service to Glasgow withdrawn to allow ECML to use the stock on other more appropriate routes? Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs loses some of its significance anyway with the ongoing improvements on more direct routes between the two cities under the plans of the Scottish Government. If electrification, speed increases and better stock are applied to other routes, what would be the point of going via Carstairs?

 

[ac6000cw]

WCML to Edinburgh trains have to go along a ~250m radius curve which severely limits their speed. There is a long-disused rail alignment nearby which would smooth this curve out perfectly and these junction improvements almost certainly will involve reinstating it. This alignment is extremely visible on Google Maps if you want to have a look.

Thanks

Are there speed problems on the Glasgow route as well due to the current junction/station layout, or does the general curvature through the area on that line limit the speed anyway ?

From the Google maps sat view it looks like the old alignment has reverted to farmland, so presumably it would be expensive to rebuild it. Since the press release referred to a 'bottleneck' maybe the emphasis is going to be on removing conflicts by creating a grade-separated junction for the Edinburgh line ?

 

[Senex]

Virgin Trains services between Birmingham & Scotland are mostly now extended to run London - Scotland via Birmingham.

Virgin Trains do not operate any services from Liverpool/Manchester to Birmingham.

Any speed improvements through Carstairs will benefit all operators and all destinations.

I am very well aware of the first two points. The question of why Manchester trains (and perhaps in the future a Liverpool service) are in a different and lower-quality franchise from the main West Coast one when they use the WCML and serve its stations save for the very short connection off into Manchester is an interesting one that could be debated at length. As for the Birmingham trains, I was - perhaps wrongly - under the impression that making that service an extension of London trains was done for operational convenience rather than with any ideas of providing extra London-to-Scotland trains.

As for Carstairs, any speed improvements through the station and at the station junction will benefit all operators running through non-stop to and from Glasgow but will do nothing for trains between Birmingham and Manchester and Edinburgh. For those it is the south-to-east curve that needs to be changed. The reason for my question is that I am aware that some years ago the idea of restoring the original Caledonian Railway alignment from Float Junction to Lampits Junction was being considered. I wondered whether this is still under consideration, or whether something simpler is now in mind, or even anything at all (if it is indeed the station that is to be improved). The present alignment arises from the building of the Dolphinton Branch, which diverged from the west-to-east curve half way along and crossed the formation of the direct Edinburgh line on the level, so that when the south-to-west curve was replaced it was made much tighter, so that it connected into what was the west-to-east curve just before the Dolphinton line diverged from that curve.

 

[D1009]

I don't disagree with your logic, but this announcement is solely about the WCML franchise. Your proposal would have to be be in a Network RUS or similar. In any case, wasn't the ECML service to Glasgow withdrawn to allow ECML to use the stock on other more appropriate routes? Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs loses some of its significance anyway with the ongoing improvements on more direct routes between the two cities under the plans of the Scottish Government. If electrification, speed increases and better stock are applied to other routes, what would be the point of going via Carstairs?

I get the impression that as part of their strategy Transport Scotland is ensuring that any available capacity on the upgraded routes is taken up by improvements to Scotrail services. Trains to and from the rest of the UK are seen as an inconvenience.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I don't disagree with your logic, but this announcement is solely about the WCML franchise.

I was commenting on Watcher Zero's "Few more details from the DfT".

Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs loses some of its significance anyway with the ongoing improvements on more direct routes between the two cities under the plans of the Scottish Government.

Indeed - the case for keeping the underused ECML services from Glasgow became much weaker from the point when the Airdrie-Bathgate line opened.

If electrification, speed increases and better stock are applied to other routes, what would be the point of going via Carstairs?

Because I get to spend longer on a more comfortable train.

Not all journeys from Scotland are to London - I travel regularly to Newcastle and the ECML via Carstairs is actually the quickest route.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Few more details from the Dft.

Free Wi-Fi onboard and at stations too.
£2.5m on Pendolino refurbishment
£2.75m on improving catering
Increased parking spaces at Carlisle, Lancaster and Stafford
2 trains per day to Shrewsbury (1 on Sundays)
1 train per day to Blackpool
Joint planning to be undertaken to remodel Carstairs and improve London-Scotland travel times.

On the last point, I hope that London-Scotland travel times via Edinburgh and ECML, and Edinburgh via WCML will be included in any improvements. Carstairs is not much of a problem as it is when travelling to/from Glasgow on the WCML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Your proposal would have to be be in a Network RUS or similar.

It was in the original NR CP5 plans for Scotland, but did not survive the cut into the HLOS and CP5 project list.
This was what was offered (CP5 Enhancements Plan Jan 2013, p141):

Carstairs Junction Remodelling
- to increase speed over the three junctions thereby reducing journey times for both passenger and freight operators and increasing capability
- to simplify the junction layout reducing amount of infrastructure requiring maintenance in future years
- to improve the passenger experience on the WCML and the Cobbinshaw Line
(Carstairs to Edinburgh) for passengers traveling between the WCML and Edinburgh as well as for Glasgow to Edinburgh services running via the Station Junction to East Junction Curve

No details were offered as to how line speeds could be increased.
Speeds from both directions onto the Edinburgh line at Carstairs are 15mph followed by a long 30mph before the straight alignment towards Edinburgh is reached.
The obvious WCML improvement is to reinstate the old alignment to the east of Carstairs, cutting off the sharp loop via the station.
The route is still clearly visible and is only inhabited by sheep.
However that would not do anything for Glasgow-Edinburgh services.

There will be four (or more) electrified routes between Glasgow and Edinburgh soon.
The Bathgate route is already wired but runs into the Queen St LL system.
The Falkirk High route into Queen St HL is next, but will be very busy and Queen St cannot handle long trains.
The Shotts route into Central comes later and might suit the trains that currently use Carstairs, but would also omit Motherwell.
It will also be possible under EGIP to run via Falkirk Grahamston, Cumbernauld and Carmyle into Central.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Any improvement to me as another regular WCML User is welcomed. The Cobinshaw line to/from Edinburgh is the curse of such journeys and although improvements at Carstairs woant entirely solve the routes wowes it may at least allow for some rejigging and maybe better use of paths into the already full to birsting Haymarket? Not to mention the major journeytime improvements that not slowing down brings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
can anyone clarify what the max speed at the junction is for North and Southbound WCML Workings to and from Glasgow? Last time I did it Id have said it was 70 plus?

 

[swt_passenger]

It was in the original NR CP5 plans for Scotland, but did not survive the cut into the HLOS and CP5 project list.

I was thinking more about the hypothetical re-instatement of the two hourly Kings Cross to Glasgow service, following any improvements, rather than the infrastructure work itself...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

can anyone clarify what the max speed at the junction is for North and Southbound WCML Workings to and from Glasgow? Last time I did it Id have said it was 70 plus?

WCML speeds seem to be 90mph on the Down at Carstairs South Jn, rising to 95 through the station area (no platform).
It appears to be only 30mph through the platform line on the Up.

Motherwell resignalling is in the CP5 project list and includes bi-directional working between Law Jn/Shieldmuir and Carstairs by 2018, but does nothing at Carstairs itself.
Another CP5 project is for ECML-Carstairs W12 gauge enhancement by 2016, but most of that work is at the Edinburgh end.

 

[The Planner]

Still lots of talk of trying to get the mythical 135mph too.

 

[Senex]

WCML speeds seem to be 90mph on the Down at Carstairs South Jn, rising to 95 through the station area (no platform).
It appears to be only 30mph through the platform line on the Up.

Isn't it 90 on the up main line (= up platform line) in the up direction but only 30 running on that line in the down direction?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't it 90 on the up main line (= up platform line) in the up direction but only 30 running on that line in the down direction?

Yes you are right, I read the Sectional Appendix wrong.
I thought that was rather slow. It's a complex bit of track!

 

[Blindtraveler]

relms of fantacy here but wouldnt it be good if the whole thing, station and all could be dug up/knocked down and started again? In practice best we'll get for now is work as mentioned above and maybe the removal of the seamingly endless nutral sections in the area.

 

[edwin_m]

Kings Cross to Glasgow was competitive with Euston to Glasgow when first introduced, and gave an approximately hourly combined service between Glasgow and London. Since the advent of Pendolinos it was not longer time-competitive for journeys to London - the main market became Glasgow to NE England and Leeds which are better served by the two-hourly XC service that replaced it.

 

[Railsigns]

Does anyone know what the current thinking about Carstairs is, and whether it still includes the possible restoration of the original line from Float Jn towards Edinburgh?

From what I've seen, that is not on the cards. There will be a new north-east curve bypassing the station (and that horrible curve with the negative cant). The south-east curve is reduced to single track. Services between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh would therefore benefit the most.

 

[dk1]

Virgin Trains do not operate any services from Liverpool/Manchester to Birmingham.

Apart from the 06.27 SX Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston via Birmingham New St that is.

 

[WatcherZero]

Before people get too carried away, note that it only said they would be planning improvements not that they would build them, its likely they will come up with both an infrastructure plan and a disruption plan and those would be implemented by the next tendered WCML franchise.

 

[dtaylor84]

Well, the disruption will be implemented but there might not be enough money for the improvements...

 

[Altnabreac]

I was thinking more about the hypothetical re-instatement of the two hourly Kings Cross to Glasgow service, following any improvements, rather than the infrastructure work itself...

I think it is unlikely the London services will be restored.

When the cross border ECML passengers from Glasgow were analysed there were 2 main markets:

• Glasgow - Newcastle
• Glasgow - Leeds

The number of London - Glasgow via ECML passengers was very small indeed so actually the Cross Country service running to Glasgow offered better connections for more passengers as it provided more direct Leeds - Glasgow journey opportunities.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I've seen, that is not on the cards. There will be a new north-east curve bypassing the station (and that horrible curve with the negative cant). The south-east curve is reduced to single track. Services between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh would therefore benefit the most.

That doesn't really address the main problem VT is interested in, which is WCML-Edinburgh.
Of all the flows through Carstairs this is the one growing most strongly.
The Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland flows are tending to favour the Edinburgh route over Glasgow, instead of the current alternating pattern.