Castleford to Dee Marsh railway line

[northwichcat]

In a planning permission response, Network Rail have referred to section of railway line just south west of Knutsford station as the "Castleford to Dee Marsh railway line"

http://doc.cheshireeast.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/07296173.pdf

While Dee Marsh isn't a commonly heard term that makes sense. However, where's the Castleford they are referring to?

 

[Midlandman]

the old (i.e pre-Metrolink) engineering code was CDM which stood for CastleFIELD to Dee Marsh

 

[northwichcat]

the old (i.e pre-Metrolink) engineering code was CDM which stood for CastleFIELD to Dee Marsh

Makes sense. I didn't think there was a Castleford in Manchester or Cheshire. Although, if they want to run direct trains between the Mid-Cheshire line and West Yorks they are more than welcome.

 

[142094]

I bet Castleford gets confused with Castleton (Gtr Manchester) and Castleton Moor as well.

 

[northwichcat]

I bet Castleford gets confused with Castleton (Gtr Manchester) and Castleton Moor as well.

Castleton gets printed on train tickets as Castleton (Manchester) despite being just outside Rochdale and a number of miles from Manchester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Dee Marsh info here http://www.penmorfa.com/Wrexham/nine.html

& http://www.penmorfa.com/Wrexham/ten.html

Dee Marsh to Mickle Trafford brings back memories

When I was a lad a porter at Rhyl would often say, the down as just passed Mickle Trafford Frames when he phoned Chester control on one of 20 or so phones in the down side announcers hut, situated under the footbridge on platform two. We would be awaiting info of the 2.08a.m. ex Manchester ex/vic newspaper train on a Sunday morning.

Bob

 

[Requeststop]

In 1961, as a 9 year old, I was taken from Cornwall to Chester to stay with an Aunt/Uncle/Cousin. Whilst there I asked to be taken to Wales as I'd never knowingly been there, and we went by train from Chester to Hawarden Bridge and got off the train, and I was shown the River Dee, and was told that where we stood was the only part of Wales east of the river - I was ever so pleased. Then we took a train one stop back over Dee Marsh to Neston, crossed over the track and took the Bidston-Chester train back over Dee Marsh to Chester. For many years that journey was shaded in on my track atlas. It wasn't for the next 31 years that I actually passed over Dee Marsh and I could completely shade in the Bidston - Wrexham line and look again at what remains of Dee Marsh and the Shotton Steel Works. Thanks for the memory if nothing else.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Castleton gets printed on train tickets as Castleton (Manchester) despite being just outside Rochdale and a number of miles from Manchester.

Is that to do with railway sectorisation terminology rather than geographical useage?

 

[142094]

Is that to do with railway sectorisation terminology rather than geographical useage?

It is normally to differentiate between two stations that sound similar (like Marsden in West Yorkshire will have (Yorks) on the ticket). Probably just goes after the nearest large urban area or county.

 

[merlodlliw]

In 1961, as a 9 year old, I was taken from Cornwall to Chester to stay with an Aunt/Uncle/Cousin. Whilst there I asked to be taken to Wales as I'd never knowingly been there, and we went by train from Chester to Hawarden Bridge and got off the train, and I was shown the River Dee, and was told that where we stood was the only part of Wales east of the river - I was ever so pleased. Then we took a train one stop back over Dee Marsh to Neston, crossed over the track and took the Bidston-Chester train back over Dee Marsh to Chester. For many years that journey was shaded in on my track atlas. It wasn't for the next 31 years that I actually passed over Dee Marsh and I could completely shade in the Bidston - Wrexham line and look again at what remains of Dee Marsh and the Shotton Steel Works. Thanks for the memory if nothing else.

Enjoyed reading your story.

Best Wishes
Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In 1961, as a 9 year old, I was taken from Cornwall to Chester to stay with an Aunt/Uncle/Cousin. Whilst there I asked to be taken to Wales as I'd never knowingly been there, and we went by train from Chester to Hawarden Bridge and got off the train, and I was shown the River Dee, and was told that where we stood was the only part of Wales east of the river - I was ever so pleased. Then we took a train one stop back over Dee Marsh to Neston, crossed over the track and took the Bidston-Chester train back over Dee Marsh to Chester. For many years that journey was shaded in on my track atlas. It wasn't for the next 31 years that I actually passed over Dee Marsh and I could completely shade in the Bidston - Wrexham line and look again at what remains of Dee Marsh and the Shotton Steel Works. Thanks for the memory if nothing else.

You only need have gone to a Chester City home match in Bumpers Lane. Geographically the ground is actually in Wales, but the only approach road is in England.
I gather the boundaries are where various channels of the River Dee used to run before it was canalised on the western side in the 1700s, leaving all the reclaimed land in Wales.

Further upstream, there is an even larger slice of Wales east of the Dee (the Maelor district, now part of Wrexham), including Bangor on Dee, Overton and almost to Whitchurch.
This was crossed by the Cambrian Railway (Wrexham/Oswestry to Whitchurch), but I never managed to travel on these bits before they closed.

 

[northwichcat]

Is that to do with railway sectorisation terminology rather than geographical useage?

It is normally to differentiate between two stations that sound similar (like Marsden in West Yorkshire will have (Yorks) on the ticket). Probably just goes after the nearest large urban area or county.

Adding "(Manchester)" after some destinations in Greater Manchester is something that's only come in recently.

The town of Nelson, Lancashire used to be two settlements which both had 'Marsden' in the name which is why the village of Marsden in Yorkshire was referred to as Marsden (Yorks.)

 

[merlodlliw]

You only need have gone to a Chester City home match in Bumpers Lane. Geographically the ground is actually in Wales, but the only approach road is in England.
I gather the boundaries are where various channels of the River Dee used to run before it was canalised on the western side in the 1700s, leaving all the reclaimed land in Wales.

Further upstream, there is an even larger slice of Wales east of the Dee (the Maelor district, now part of Wrexham), including Bangor on Dee, Overton and almost to Whitchurch.
This was crossed by the Cambrian Railway (Wrexham/Oswestry to Whitchurch), but I never managed to travel on these bits before they closed.

Interesting place the Maelor, before Clwyd CC was invented, it was landlocked
on the Welsh side by Denbighshire, as the Maelor was an island of Flintshire in Denbighshire.
I recall when we voted for Sunday opening of Pubs in 1961, Denbigh voted to stay dry, but The Maelor part of Flintshire became wet, The Maelor became an island Oasis.

Anyhow back to the rails, My other half travelled as a Child from Wrexham Central to Whitchurch many times, the line passed through Whixall Moss half in Shropshire,the other half in Wales, I often travel this line though the Moss in Summer, it has bridleway status and was used in the first world war as a shooting range. Some of the old Railway buildings still stand,Bettisfield station is a sight to behold,now a house, but with all the railway signs,adverts & stock still intact http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bettisfield/index.shtmlhttp://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/designatedareas/nnr/1006173.aspx

 

[Midlandman]

OK, this is a bit off topic, but:

As the players walk out of the tunnel at Chester City FC, they cross the border from England to Wales as they cross the white line on to the pitch. Virtually every other ground in the UK has been built with the main stand (i.e. where the expensive seats are) facing east, so that the sun doesn't shine in the eyes of the fat cats on a typical Saturday afternoon. (And I speak as someone who has spent a lot of Saturdays squinting into the sun). However, if they had followed this practice at Chester, it would have meant that the main stand (and the club's registered office) would have been in Wales and therefore they couldn't have been able to play in the English League 'pyramid'. So, Chester's ground was built 'back to front' so that the offices were in England.

To get back on topic (a bit), I remember my parents taking me to Rhyl in the late 50's and recall (specifically) two things;

1, a waitress in a cafe really trying to persuade me that I was in a different country (I don't think I believed her) and;

2, seeing the ex-Devon Belle observation car, at that time used in the North Wales Land Cruise train (look it up) in the down carriage sidings, as we waited for our train home

 

[merlodlliw]

OK, this is a bit off topic, but:

As the players walk out of the tunnel at Chester City FC, they cross the border from England to Wales as they cross the white line on to the pitch. Virtually every other ground in the UK has been built with the main stand (i.e. where the expensive seats are) facing east, so that the sun doesn't shine in the eyes of the fat cats on a typical Saturday afternoon. (And I speak as someone who has spent a lot of Saturdays squinting into the sun). However, if they had followed this practice at Chester, it would have meant that the main stand (and the club's registered office) would have been in Wales and therefore they couldn't have been able to play in the English League 'pyramid'. So, Chester's ground was built 'back to front' so that the offices were in England.

To get back on topic (a bit), I remember my parents taking me to Rhyl in the late 50's and recall (specifically) two things;

1, a waitress in a cafe really trying to persuade me that I was in a different country (I don't think I believed her) and;

2, seeing the ex-Devon Belle observation car, at that time used in the North Wales Land Cruise train (look it up) in the down carriage sidings, as we waited for our train home

An interesting concept about the English League Pyramid, ill have to check and see where Wrexham s registered offices are and Newport who both play in the Bet Premier League (the old conference).
I too recall the observation car at Rhyl, when it did the round trip Rhyl/Denbigh/Corwen/Barmouth/Caernarvon/Bangor/Rhyl etc known as the radio land cruise. I forget the premium to travel in the observation car,used it many times. link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1006c.htm

On inspection in Rhyl Carriage sidings, some of the other carriages on the cruise were indeed from the Llandudno/Manchester Club train.This was also mentioned on the cruise when the train left Rhyl, in many ways pure luxuary. link http://www.greatorme.org.uk/Arrivatrains.html

 

[Midlandman]

I know this is a rail forum and not a football one, but just to clarify my earlier post, I should have said that if Chester's new ground had been built the other way round, they would have to have been affiliated to the WELSH Football Association, not the English one. As Chester itself isn't in Wales, they didn't want this so the ground was built 'back to front'. It's not a matter of which league they play in.
As for the Land Cruise train, I wasn't very old but I wish I'd been able to see some of the other exotic coaches on it, but sadly only the end of the observation car was visible from the platform. It must have made quite an impression on me because it's one ofmy earliest memories (along with a clearly remembered ex-GWR railcar in Bristol Temple Meads, probably the Portishead branch car)

 

[Requeststop]

You only need have gone to a Chester City home match in Bumpers Lane. Geographically the ground is actually in Wales, but the only approach road is in England.
Further upstream, there is an even larger slice of Wales east of the Dee (the Maelor district, now part of Wrexham), including Bangor on Dee, Overton and almost to Whitchurch.
This was crossed by the Cambrian Railway (Wrexham/Oswestry to Whitchurch), but I never managed to travel on these bits before they closed.

Yes a walk past the Racecourse and down the road a bit would have sufficed but a rail journey for a 9 year old was far more exciting!:grin: I think at the time 2 Adult and 2 Child returns to Neston was enough to satisfy my childhood dreams.
I see what you mean by Maelor. I was never really aware of that. My 1947 Atlas shows 2 lines passing through the district: Wrexham to Ellesmere with 2 stops in Maelor at Bangor on Dee and Overton on Dee, and the second line passing through on the Whitchurch to Ellesmere section to Oswestry with again 2 stations at Fenn's Bank and Bettisfield.

Going back to Dee Marsh, can anyone tell me when the last Iron Ore freight from Birkenhead/Wallasey dock when down the Bidston-Hawarden Bridge line? is there any freight on that line today?

 

[merlodlliw]

I know this is a rail forum and not a football one, but just to clarify my earlier post, I should have said that if Chester's new ground had been built the other way round, they would have to have been affiliated to the WELSH Football Association, not the English one. As Chester itself isn't in Wales, they didn't want this so the ground was built 'back to front'. It's not a matter of which league they play in.
As for the Land Cruise train, I wasn't very old but I wish I'd been able to see some of the other exotic coaches on it, but sadly only the end of the observation car was visible from the platform. It must have made quite an impression on me because it's one ofmy earliest memories (along with a clearly remembered ex-GWR railcar in Bristol Temple Meads, probably the Portishead branch car)

Yes the coaches were indeed special, take your point about the football Associations, Wrexham must be affiliated to both. this link is interesting
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bangor-welsh-cup-final-aka-rhyl-vs-chester

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Going back to Dee Marsh, can anyone tell me when the last Iron Ore freight from Birkenhead/Wallasey dock when down the Bidston-Hawarden Bridge line? is there any freight on that line today?[/QUOTE] request stop.

There is still freight on the line via Wrexham s platform three, steel from South Wales going to the coating plant at Shotton , now owned by an Indian Company
this link is a 17 minute film of Shottons locos http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/sites/deeside/pages/locos.shtml

 

[The Informer]

I was at Dee Marsh today. Not much happens there now. A few derelict buildings and a brake van full of empty beer bottles at the Shotwick end! I think the steel runs twice a day and that's it!

 

[Requeststop]

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately the BBC seem to feel that we expats should not be allowed to see such video as we choose to work out of the UK. Pity. The thought and the message are appreciated.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I had the same problem when I was in France :roll:

This Train Don't Stop Camborne Wednesdays
Has me in stitches every time I hear it!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axHV2wx8RA