Chester city transport ltd

[CICERO55]

Hello, does anyone know what made the then chester council sell off chester city transport? Am i correct in thinking first manchester still own the name but stagecoach “just” run the ex cct routes? Thanks

 

[David Verity]

Chester City Transport Limited is listed as a dormant company in the latest First Group accounts. The selloff was probably politically motivated - I think there was some sort of enquiry of which a report can still be traced somewhere - if I can find it I'll post a link.. I recall that the Council were emphatic that the undertaking should not be sold to Arriva.

Hello, does anyone know what made the then chester council sell off chester city transport? Am i correct in thinking first manchester still own the name but stagecoach “just” run the ex cct routes? Thanks

Chester City Council & Anor v Arriva Plc & Ors | [2007] EWHC 1373 (Ch) | England and Wales High Court (Chancery Division) | Judgment | Law | CaseMine

Get free access to the complete judgment in Chester City Council & Anor v Arriva Plc & Ors on CaseMine.

www.casemine.com

Not particularly easy reading but it might help answer a few questions.

 

[peters]

First merged what they acquired from CCT in to First Greater Manchester but then at a later date parts of First Greater Manchester were sold to Stagecoach, which explains why the name didn't transfer.

A lot of new companies have been set up using historic bus company names - Lancashire United, Crossville, North West Road Car Co etc. which might be why First have kept CCT as a dormant company, someone might pay money for it in the future!

 

[Mwanesh]

Chester Transport was down on its knees. Arriva were attacking their territory.They would have gone under. Politics or not you dont sell a successful business.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Chester Transport was down on its knees. Arriva were attacking their territory.They would have gone under. Politics or not you dont sell a successful business.

Not quite right.

Chester City Transport had been barely profitable for a number of years. Fleet replacement had slipped badly so the fleet was mainly Darts from between 1992 to 1998 though there were older Olympians and for the P&R, some newer BMC Falcons. The city council weren't prepared to spend money on much needed fleet investment so they prepared it for sale.

Arriva subsequently went steaming in to try and secure a dominant position, operating on the lucrative Blacon service before there were court proceedings and the sale to First.

 

[cnjb8]

Not quite right.

Chester City Transport had been barely profitable for a number of years. Fleet replacement had slipped badly so the fleet was mainly Darts from between 1992 to 1998 though there were older Olympians and for the P&R, some newer BMC Falcons. The city council weren't prepared to spend money on much needed fleet investment so they prepared it for sale.

Arriva subsequently went steaming in to try and secure a dominant position, operating on the lucrative Blacon service before there were court proceedings and the sale to First.

Who did Arriva purchase to gain services in Chester?

 

[Robertj21a]

Who did Arriva purchase to gain services in Chester?

Arriva already had Crosville.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Who did Arriva purchase to gain services in Chester?

Crosville WALES had a depot at Hawarden which was part of British Bus and so operated in from there in the main from Mold and Deeside; this was their main local base. They also ran in from Wrexham (Crosville Wales), Runcorn and Winsford (North Western) and Crewe (Midland Red North) depots.of

 

[cnjb8]

Arriva already had Crosville.

Crosville WALES had a depot at Hawarden which was part of British Bus and so operated in from there in the main from Mold and Deeside; this was their main local base. They also ran in from Wrexham (Crosville Wales), Runcorn and Winsford (North Western) and Crewe (Midland Red North) depots.of

Thanks

 

[David Verity]

Thanks

If my memory serves me right Crosville Cymru (later Arriva) arrived in Chester with the acquisition of Devaway which had been formed by ex Crosville Chester personnel. First were already in Chester, Badgerline having acquired PMT's chunk of the former Crosville England.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If my memory serves me right Crosville Cymru (later Arriva) arrived in Chester with the acquisition of Devaway which had been formed by ex Crosville Chester personnel. First were already in Chester, Badgerline having acquired PMT's chunk of the former Crosville England.

Kind of and kinda not.

In Sep 1986 when Crosville was split, Crosville Wales gained the depot at Mold as well as the outstation at Holywell (which had replaced Flint years before) and they operated the services from Mold into Chester and from places like Connahs Quay and the Deeside corridor. It was against those routes that Devaway competed against (in the main) from their depot in Bretton. Now my memory is a little hazy but I think that Crosville Wales purchased Devaway in 1998, and then closed both Bretton and Mold in favour of a new depot in Hawarden. However, that's the main source for Arriva in Chester.

Again going back to 1986, Crosville Wales also inherited the Wrexham depot so CW also worked into the city from there. Crosville itself retained the English depots (except Oswestry) but with the dismemberment of that business and a convoluted set of sales and rebrands, the depots at Winsford, Runcorn and Crewe (North Western and Midland Red North depots all of whom worked into Chester) eventually joined Crosville Wales as part of British Bus and they subsequently became Arriva.

The break-up in 1988-90 of the English bit of Crosville is hard to easily summarise. However, the depots at Ellesmere Port, Rock Ferry and Chester were sold to PMT (who had established their Red Rider operations at Moreton on the Wirral) and these operations became First and on purchasing CCT, they combined the ops. They were subsequently sold to Stagecoach.

 

[peters]

The break-up in 1988-90 of the English bit of Crosville is hard to easily summarise.

I recall things got very complicated with Uttoxeter based Stevensons getting involved in Cheshire services and when Arriva brought them out it meant the Arriva Midlands North and Arriva North West areas overlapped as far north as Knutsford.

 

[Robertj21a]

This whole area throughout this whole period would produce an enormous amount of data and photographs for anyone prepared to write a book on the subject.
As an aside, has there ever been a book devoted to just British Bus (i.e the period before Arriva) ?

 

[Andyh82]

This whole area throughout this whole period would produce an enormous amount of data and photographs for anyone prepared to write a book on the subject.
As an aside, has there ever been a book devoted to just British Bus (i.e the period before Arriva) ?

I'm surprised Amberley Publishing haven't done one, they've done pretty much everything else

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm surprised Amberley Publishing haven't done one, they've done pretty much everything else

Yes, shame they're not very good quality.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I recall things got very complicated with Uttoxeter based Stevensons getting involved in Cheshire services and when Arriva brought them out it meant the Arriva Midlands North and Arriva North West areas overlapped as far north as Knutsford.

This whole area throughout this whole period would produce an enormous amount of data and photographs for anyone prepared to write a book on the subject.
As an aside, has there ever been a book devoted to just British Bus (i.e the period before Arriva)?

I'm surprised Amberley Publishing haven't done one, they've done pretty much everything else

It would certainly be interesting but it's difficult to know the truth. That aside from their former CEO, Dawson Williams, being jailed for corruption! IIRC, Drawlane were bidding for various NBC subsidiaries though you only had a limit of four to any one business, so they got LC(SW), Shamrock and Rambler, Midland Red North, and North Western. However, there was another firm bidding who I think was called something like United Transport Group who were shortlisted for Lincolnshire Road Car and others but it was discovered there were more than a few links between them and Drawlane and so were barred from bidding.

Then you have the links with Drawlane (informal or otherwise?), and ATL who bought National Travel East and Crosville. It was a very murky picture and worthy of a tome or two, perhaps from Venture (or what they're called now)!!

However, back on topic before I incur the almighty wrath of the mods, you had the Arriva Hawarden depot being a combo of Crosville Wales (Mold) and Devaway, and that was the basis for the competitive attack against CCT. Again, my memory is a bit hazy but I also think British Bus purchased Lofty's of Mickle Trafford on the other side of Chester in the mid-1990s. I think it became part of North Western under the Dee Line name (as NW had Bee Line, C Line and Leigh Line as well) but I struggle to recall. I don't think it lasted long in that guise and was folded into either Hawarden and/or the North Western depot at Winsford.

 

[peters]

I think it became part of North Western under the Dee Line name (as NW had Bee Line, C Line and Leigh Line as well) but I struggle to recall.

They also had Star Line (through acquiring a company called Star Line) and at one point they had Vale Line buses operating the village services around Northwich, which looked suspiciously like Star Line buses with a branding alteration. Northwich used to be in a borough called Vale Royal, which is where the Vale name came from.

I also think British Bus purchased Lofty's of Mickle Trafford on the other side of Chester in the mid-1990s

Wikipedia agrees with that mentioning a 94/95 takeover, around the same time they acquired Star Line, Little White Bus and Wigan Bus Company and launched a Warrington bus war!

 

[David Verity]

Yes, shame they're not very good quality.

Perhaps you should offer. Amberley books can be a mixed blessing. There's no apparent editorial control and the content appears to be solely dependent on the author's collection of photographs and (not always accurate) memory. There's some good ones and some which are a waste of money. I like to see before I buy but with the current dearth of rallies, open days etc that opportunity has eluded me this year,

 

[Statto]

I have a few Chester area timetable books from the mid 90s, Crosville Wales[CW] operated routes over some Chester City Transport[CCT] services but extended through to Flintshire, CW had A11/A12 Chester-Connahs Quay which operated over part of the CCT 1 & 2 Chester to Blacon, the CW Wrexham depot didn't compete with CCT routes. CW had a few Cheshire Bus evening & Sunday tenders in the Chester area.

Devaway were the main threat to CCT, they started their own Blacon circulars, with a couple of other routes that Arriva kept on after buying Devaway.

I remember CCT rebranding as Chesterbus before selling to First

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps you should offer. Amberley books can be a mixed blessing. There's no apparent editorial control and the content appears to be solely dependent on the author's collection of photographs and (not always accurate) memory. There's some good ones and some which are a waste of money. I like to see before I buy but with the current dearth of rallies, open days etc that opportunity has eluded me this year,

I don't have the knowledge of the area to do anything related to it!. Even if I did, I wouldn't want to waste all my efforts on an Amberley publication.