Class 465 preservation?

[ThetrainguySE]

Will any networkers not the 365's be Preserved?

 

[Razorblades]

Will any networkers not the 365's be Preserved?

I think you need to answer these questions: by whom, for what audience, where, and for what purpose (i.e. in what condition, static, hauled stock etc...)

If there's no clear rationale or reason why, then I reckon you've got your answer.

 

[ThetrainguySE]

I think you need to answer these questions: by whom, for what audience, where, and for what purpose (i.e. in what condition, static, hauled stock etc...)

If there's no clear rationale or reason why, then I reckon you've got your answer.

Ok, Thanks! Just started using this so ye

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I think that a 465 should be preserved, preservation should progress so that the trains that younger people find currently interesting are available to see when they are older much in the same way that when I was younger I enjoyed a 37 pulling Mk1s up the WAML but I can still sometimes enjoy that on a heritage line.
I would not have much interest in steam because it is from before my time.

 

[delt1c]

Preserving an emu has a lot more problems than hauled stock and DMU’s. Where would it be kept , is it static or operational, if operational how would it be operated? Everything costs money and money is limited. As much as I would like to see a 365 preserved I don’t think it will happen

 

[Mikey C]

The 465s will be in service for several years yet anyway

 

[gmaguire]

If somebody is willing and has the money, it will probably happen, even if there’s no use for it. Preservation is about keeping something even after there’s no use for it, simply because it’s liked, and Networkers are liked.

 

[Wolfie]

I think that a 465 should be preserved, preservation should progress so that the trains that younger people find currently interesting are available to see when they are older much in the same way that when I was younger I enjoyed a 37 pulling Mk1s up the WAML but I can still sometimes enjoy that on a heritage line.
I would not have much interest in steam because it is from before my time.

Preserving EMUs has issues, particularly EMUs which may not be in the best condition. There are still lots of Networkers, albeit different classes, in daily service too which also perhaps might be a negative factor.

 

[Wyrleybart]

If somebody is willing and has the money, it will probably happen, even if there’s no use for it. Preservation is about keeping something even after there’s no use for it, simply because it’s liked, and Networkers are liked.

It is all about money of course but I see something like a 465 as an opportunity to provide an "outside the summer" ability to provide a train service. What would be needed for a pres line would be an airbraked vehicle to translate the electric brake line into something a diesel loco recognises, and some kind of power feed, to translate ETH from the loco into a powersupply on the train , obviously requiring provision of power from the adaptor coach to the EMU for heaters, lighting and doors etc.

I imagine that is all fairly resolvable using an ETH fitted air braked loco - maybe a 47 57 or recently retiring 37/4 or even a 31/4. The big problem is trying to get to drive the EMU whilst it controlsd the loco on the rear. It certainly wouldn't be insurmountable though.

 

[43096]

It is all about money of course but I see something like a 465 as an opportunity to provide an "outside the summer" ability to provide a train service. What would be needed for a pres line would be an airbraked vehicle to translate the electric brake line into something a diesel loco recognises, and some kind of power feed, to translate ETH from the loco into a powersupply on the train , obviously requiring provision of power from the adaptor coach to the EMU for heaters, lighting and doors etc.

I imagine that is all fairly resolvable using an ETH fitted air braked loco - maybe a 47 57 or recently retiring 37/4 or even a 31/4. The big problem is trying to get to drive the EMU whilst it controlsd the loco on the rear. It certainly wouldn't be insurmountable though.

So if you're dragging this EMU around with various translator vehicles behind an ETH fitted loco, wouldn't it just be easier to hook that loco up to four ETH fitted Mark 1, 2 or 3s instead? That's the fundamental problem with EMU preservation: no power to run them. Even those with drophead buckeyes and buffers (e.g. SR CEP/CIG/VEP, Class 309/504) haven't really been that successful on preserved lines, so using units with auto couplers is another thing entirely. Even more so when you consider how the railways are wedded to vac brake/steam heat and air brake/electric heat is looked at in many cases as being some evil new technology.

If the railways want an out of season train, then a DMU is a far better fit for what they want.

 

[cj_1985]

Fitting batteries to a 465 or 466 could be an option... ISTR it was proposed for a mk1 EMU (not 419)

 

[DustyBin]

If the 165 and 166 are included then I’d say it’s very likely!

 

[brad465]

I think a 466 would be a more likely preservation candidate if length is the biggest issue, as you can preserve a whole unit and wherever it would be preserved would take up less space than the 3 preserved 365 carriages. Where though would remain to be seen; I doubt the EKR would be able to take another Networker unit of sorts on for preservation.

 

[Wyrleybart]

So if you're dragging this EMU around with various translator vehicles behind an ETH fitted loco, wouldn't it just be easier to hook that loco up to four ETH fitted Mark 1, 2 or 3s instead? That's the fundamental problem with EMU preservation: no power to run them. Even those with drophead buckeyes and buffers (e.g. SR CEP/CIG/VEP, Class 309/504) haven't really been that successful on preserved lines, so using units with auto couplers is another thing entirely. Even more so when you consider how the railways are wedded to vac brake/steam heat and air brake/electric heat is looked at in many cases as being some evil new technology.

If the railways want an out of season train, then a DMU is a far better fit for what they want.

Totally agree "43096". The last thirty or forty years of EMU preservation have not bee great and I don't see it changing personally. But..... If various folk are looking at preserving 3rd gen EMUs they may be more successful than hirthertoo. I am thinking of the 4 CEPs at the DfR which could have been useful with a coat of maroon or choc n cream and with the ends painted black.

It was never meant to be, but perhaps the latest generation could achieve things the DfR couldn't.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The problem with the 400 series stock when it got preserved was a shortage of 33/1 and 73/1 to use them with.

 

[DustyBin]

The problem with the 400 series stock when it got preserved was a shortage of 33/1 and 73/1 to use them with.

An MLV (or two) works, although obviously there aren’t many of those about either…… I rode on 5759 (2EPB) when it was at the EKR, hauled by 68001 (MLV) and it felt very authentic, especially the motor sounds going through the tunnel and cuttings. It may actually have been my favourite ever journey on a preserved line thinking about it!

 

[43301]

So if you're dragging this EMU around with various translator vehicles behind an ETH fitted loco, wouldn't it just be easier to hook that loco up to four ETH fitted Mark 1, 2 or 3s instead? That's the fundamental problem with EMU preservation: no power to run them. Even those with drophead buckeyes and buffers (e.g. SR CEP/CIG/VEP, Class 309/504) haven't really been that successful on preserved lines, so using units with auto couplers is another thing entirely. Even more so when you consider how the railways are wedded to vac brake/steam heat and air brake/electric heat is looked at in many cases as being some evil new technology.

Plus they are not generally designed* to take an ETS feed from a loco so would require modifications which would no doubt be increasingly difficult, complex and expensive the newer the unit. Trying it with a fairly modern unit with a computerised management system would likely be a very daunting task.

*a small number of classes have been designed to take an ETS feed from a loco, of which the only class still in operation is the Pendolino.

 

[gc4946]

Now is the time to consider how a 465 or 466 can be preserved, before they're withdrawn, especially regarding spares and operation.
I don't know if it's feasible to install batteries in a Networker so they could run under power on a heritage line.

 

[Southern Dvr]

In 2012 a NR Class 57 was set up to push/pull a Class 377. No translator required. We also have all the BR EMUs being hauled straight to the scrapper without translators. So the concept of operating ‘modern’ EMUs on preserved lines is not as difficult a concept as once it was.

 

[43301]

In 2012 a NR Class 57 was set up to push/pull a Class 377. No translator required. We also have all the BR EMUs being hauled straight to the scrapper without translators. So the concept of operating ‘modern’ EMUs on preserved lines is not as difficult a concept as once it was.

The translation equipment is built into the loco - there will be a socket on the front - and the loco will be fitted with the appropriate auto-coupler. I very much doubt if there was any 'push-pull' (i.e. controlling the loco from the unit) involved - it will probably just have been dragging the unit.

Also, this is just for moving units as empty stock. It doesn't address the bigger issue of power for all the onboard systems.

 

[bramling]

Will any networkers not the 365's be Preserved?

I'm sure some vehicles will survive, whether they will be runners is rather more unlikely.

Part of the issue with the 365s was they finished rather suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly, so no one really had much time to do anything.

One does wonder if something is afoot with 365541, as it seems to have clung to life at Booths Rotherham for several months now. From what I gather it's still intact there now.

 

[A0]

I would suggest taking a look at the general state of EMU preservation in this country as that gives a pretty clear indication of how successful it is.

Even those of historic significance such as the 4DD, 502, 306 have struggled to find homes and be well maintained as static exhibits, so the odds of relatively modern EMUs finding a home, still less being used, are slim.

Part of the issue with the 365s was they finished rather suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly, so no one really had much time to do anything.

Irrelevant - look at the survival and presevation of EMUs which were withdrawn over a much longer timeframe. About the only EMUs which were attractive to preservation were the Southern Mk1 based units e.g. CEP / VEP etc - and part of that was because they were designed such that they could be easily propelled by an external loco as a result of their design - even then they've fared badly with scrapping taking place after preservation.

 

[gc4946]

I think a 466 would be a more likely preservation candidate if length is the biggest issue, as you can preserve a whole unit and wherever it would be preserved would take up less space than the 3 preserved 365 carriages. Where though would remain to be seen; I doubt the EKR would be able to take another Networker unit of sorts on for preservation.

The One : One Collection in Margate could be home for a 466 - Hornby made a model of that in its range.
It would look great next to the preserved 4SUB 4732.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I would suggest taking a look at the general state of EMU preservation in this country as that gives a pretty clear indication of how successful it is.

Even those of historic significance such as the 4DD, 502, 306 have struggled to find homes and be well maintained as static exhibits, so the odds of relatively modern EMUs finding a home, still less being used, are slim.



Irrelevant - look at the survival and presevation of EMUs which were withdrawn over a much longer timeframe. About the only EMUs which were attractive to preservation were the Southern Mk1 based units e.g. CEP / VEP etc - and part of that was because they were designed such that they could be easily propelled by an external loco as a result of their design - even then they've fared badly with scrapping taking place after preservation.

The 502 was part of the national collection, it got handed back after steamport closed (similar case is the Liverpool Overhead Coach, Cecil rakes etc). The 502 got deaccessioned back in 2011. Part of the problem with 502 was asbestos so it took time to sort out (i think). 4DD was a different issue not to do with homing it (a very long story, not for this thread).

As above really. The biggest problem is homing an emu and what pratical use does it have. The 365 has a plan to be used a events space at Eyethorne but opportunites like this are limited. I know the case with both the 483 and the potenital Class 315 is they have had to be homed outside of area which can reduce interest (i know this is the case for sure with one EMU that if its not on the doorstep of where it opperated people are not interested).

 

[Southern Dvr]

The translation equipment is built into the loco - there will be a socket on the front - and the loco will be fitted with the appropriate auto-coupler. I very much doubt if there was any 'push-pull' (i.e. controlling the loco from the unit) involved - it will probably just have been dragging the unit.

Also, this is just for moving units as empty stock. It doesn't address the bigger issue of power for all the onboard systems.

No, but go back just a few years back you’d not even have been able to move them as ECS without translators. A few tweaks more and things could be possible. Don’t know about likely but definitely possible!

 

[D365]

Part of the issue with the 365s was they finished rather suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly, so no one really had much time to do anything.

Overshadowed somewhat by the fact that, unless they can somehow be converted to operate independently, there is very limited interest in preserving multiple units...

 

[Southern Dvr]

Overshadowed somewhat by the fact that, unless they can somehow be converted to operate independently, there is very limited interest in preserving multiple units...

Of course If the price was right and the electrics could be made to work it would effectively be a DMU thus avoiding the need of run rounds. But as we know it’s highly unlikely to happen.

 

[bramling]

Irrelevant - look at the survival and presevation of EMUs which were withdrawn over a much longer timeframe. About the only EMUs which were attractive to preservation were the Southern Mk1 based units e.g. CEP / VEP etc - and part of that was because they were designed such that they could be easily propelled by an external loco as a result of their design - even then they've fared badly with scrapping taking place after preservation.

Yes it is quite depressing how poorly EMUs have fared in preservation. As you say, even ones which have been nominally preserved have in many cases found themselves left to rot. Same with the Thumpers, though they have fared better in most cases they're not regular runners.

I was more thinking about 365 cars as static exhibits though. From withdrawal announcement to first scrappings was barely six months if that, which certainly won't have helped. With most stocks their withdrawal is normally fairly predictable.

 

[JonathanH]

As you say, even ones which have been nominally preserved have in many cases found themselves left to rot.

Indeed, just this month, the group that were looking to preserve a 4-CEP in original condition have released the two trailer coaches they had because of inadequate funding and time to deal with the needs of four coaches and deterioration of those trailers.

As the 3-CEP at Chinnor shows, a 1950 or 1960s EMU can be useful for air braked locomotives to haul but the compability between those and modern freight engines doesn't extend to a 465 or any other modern stock.

 

[A0]

Yes it is quite depressing how poorly EMUs have fared in preservation. As you say, even ones which have been nominally preserved have in many cases found themselves left to rot. Same with the Thumpers, though they have fared better in most cases they're not regular runners.

I was more thinking about 365 cars as static exhibits though. From withdrawal announcement to first scrappings was barely six months if that, which certainly won't have helped. With most stocks their withdrawal is normally fairly predictable.

Have the Thumpers fared that much worse than most of the 1st gen DMMUs though? Most of those only have one or two units in preservation - and a number of classes missed preservation entirely - 120, 123, 124, 125 spring to mind - sure there are others.

And a number of railways do use their Thumpers - and others such as the Swindon & Cricklade have theirs undergoing restoration - in their case hampered by an arson attack which wrote off one car.

Indeed, just this month, the group that were looking to preserve a 4-CEP in original condition have released the two trailer coaches they had because of inadequate funding and time to deal with the needs of four coaches and deterioration of those trailers.

As the 3-CEP at Chinnor shows, a 1950 or 1960s EMU can be useful for air braked locomotives to haul but the compability between those and modern freight engines doesn't extend to a 465 or any other modern stock.

The 4BIG at the GCR showed how marginal EMU preservation is - that unit was in usable (as hauled stock) until the metal fairies visited and that was enough to see the end of it.