Class 60 to be converted to steam

[foxes]

No, it's not April 1st!

Class 60 diesel locomotive set to be powered by steam in new trial

Eversholt Rail has signed a contract with Steamology which will see a Class 60 locomotive converted into being powered by steam.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Interesting news. I can't quite imagine what it will be like in practice: you'll get the noise of the traction motors of course, but I imagine it will otherwise be fairly quiet? I don't know how noisy a hydrogen generator is but I don't imagine they do thrash...

Steamology did announce they were going to do this with a class 66 in 2020, presumably that never happened?

Back to the future for UK rail freight with steam powered ’66

There is a modern twist on the original power source for the railways. An English company is working to convert the diesel workhorse of the…

www.railfreight.com

Could this be the fate of the 60 that is stored at Longport with rumours about plans to fit an EMD engine? Or separate project?

 

[BRX]

You can get some idea of what they might sound like here - although a bit hard to tell because I think they have a diesel loco ticking over as well

 

[Rail Quest]

Great to hear an interesting new idea project. Let's just hope it goes somewhere unlike what feels like a lot of these experiments.

Steamology did announce they were going to do this with a class 66 in 2020, presumably that never happened?

Wonder if that's got something to do with basically all sheds being in high demand in the UK. Perhaps they intended to purchase a shed that ended up getting swept up by GBRf

 

[JLH4AC]

As it is a steam generator (hydrogen-oxygen steam generator) most of the noise would be coming from the turbine and traction motors so it should be fairly quiet. It will be interesting to see if their claims of cost-effectiveness hold true in reality or if it will turn out like hydrogen fuel cell trains have been so far and be much more expensive than electric trains powered by batteries or overhead wires. If their claims of cost-effectiveness hold true it will be a good stopgap for unelectrified lines as would have a greater range than battery electric multiple unit and would be cleaner than bi-mode units
.

 

[BRX]

a good stopgap for unelectrified lines

And maybe third-rail land too

 

[43096]

Are Eversholt going for the hat-trick of announced hydrogen projects that never materialise and presumably disappear in a cloud (of water vapour)?
2019 - Class 321 hydrogen conversion
2021 - Hydrogen powered Aventras
2024 - Class 60 hydrogen conversion

 

[Spartacus]

As it is a steam generator (hydrogen-oxygen steam generator) most of the noise would be coming from the turbine and traction motors so it should be fairly quiet. It will be interesting to see if their claims of cost-effectiveness hold true in reality or if it will turn out like hydrogen fuel cell trains have been so far and be much more expensive than electric trains powered by batteries or overhead wires. If their claims of cost-effectiveness hold true it will be a good stopgap for unelectrified lines as would have a greater range than battery electric multiple unit and would be cleaner than bi-mode units
.

A drawback might be that you'd presumably always need something of a decent size, and that would detract from passenger capacity to some degree. Leeds of an issue for freight, though weight could be a problem I guess.

 

[Peter Wilde]

For the specific case of a green, CO2 emission free, heavy freight loco for lines not worth electrifying, this sounds potentially a good idea … especially if in some distant future there is lots of spare “green” hydrogen.

But have to wait and see if the economics are any better than for other hydrogen-based fantasies. Wonder how big the hydrogen and oxygen tanks would need to be to give the loco any decent range?

 

[JLH4AC]

A drawback might be that you'd presumably always need something of a decent size, and that would detract from passenger capacity to some degree. Leeds of an issue for freight, though weight could be a problem I guess.

As one of their claims is that it is meant to be a drop in diesel engine replacement, it should fit in the current space given over to the diesel engine and auxiliary equipment but that would be another point that it will be interesting to see if their claims hold true.

And maybe third-rail land too

Given the power losses from converting water into hydrogen and oxygen would still be much greater than that of third rail I can't see it being of much use on solely third-rail lines outside of maintenance trains, thunderbird locomotives, and maybe heavy freight trains.

 

[Ashley Hill]

You can get some idea of what they might sound like here - although a bit hard to tell because I think they have a diesel loco ticking over as well

Sounds a bit like one of the UP Big Blow gas turbine locos.

 

[BRX]

Given the power losses from converting water into hydrogen and oxygen would still be much greater than that of third rail I can't see it being of much use on solely third-rail lines outside of maintenance trains, thunderbird locomotives, and maybe heavy freight trains.

Yes, I mean as a replacement for the diesel locos that currently do virtually all of the non passenger work in third rail territory. A preferable solution might be a new third-rail capable locomotive but there doesn't seem to be any interest in developing such a thing.

 

[Woods]

Here is more about how the technology works. It's fascinating stuff. https://www.steamology.co.uk/

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Will this be exhibited at a future steam or diesel gala?

 

[plugwash]

The problem with hydrogen compared to batteries is the lousy round trip efficiency, and that is with fuel cells! Steam sounds like it would be even worse.

I really struggle to see this as more than a ruse to extract R&D money from gullible funders.

 

[Loppylugs]

What s the 60 stored at Longport? Could it become an A3 or an A4

 

[Russel]

I'll come back to this thread in 12 months to see if this goes any further than the trial loco that runs up and down a siding a few times, then rusts away...

It may be worth Steamology speaking to National Express West Midlands about how much success they've had with hydrogen propulsion.

 

[hwl]

No, it's not April 1st!

Class 60 diesel locomotive set to be powered by steam in new trial

Eversholt Rail has signed a contract with Steamology which will see a Class 60 locomotive converted into being powered by steam.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Interesting news. I can't quite imagine what it will be like in practice: you'll get the noise of the traction motors of course, but I imagine it will otherwise be fairly quiet? I don't know how noisy a hydrogen generator is but I don't imagine they do thrash...

Steamology did announce they were going to do this with a class 66 in 2020, presumably that never happened?

Back to the future for UK rail freight with steam powered ’66

There is a modern twist on the original power source for the railways. An English company is working to convert the diesel workhorse of the…

www.railfreight.com

Could this be the fate of the 60 that is stored at Longport with rumours about plans to fit an EMD engine? Or separate project?

A 60 is much easier to convert than a 66 as much more of the auxiliaries on a 60 are electrically powered e.g. the air compressor, and there is more internal space available. The development work was previously put in for the 66 but will be delivered on 60 as it is simpler, easier and cheaper.

 

[poffle]

No, it's not April 1st!

Class 60 diesel locomotive set to be powered by steam in new trial

Eversholt Rail has signed a contract with Steamology which will see a Class 60 locomotive converted into being powered by steam.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Interesting news. I can't quite imagine what it will be like in practice: you'll get the noise of the traction motors of course, but I imagine it will otherwise be fairly quiet? I don't know how noisy a hydrogen generator is but I don't imagine they do thrash...

Steamology did announce they were going to do this with a class 66 in 2020, presumably that never happened?

Back to the future for UK rail freight with steam powered ’66

There is a modern twist on the original power source for the railways. An English company is working to convert the diesel workhorse of the…

www.railfreight.com

Could this be the fate of the 60 that is stored at Longport with rumours about plans to fit an EMD engine? Or separate project?

I think this could definitely be classified as vapourware (pun intended).

Steamology Motion accounts for last year show an average of 9 employees and share capital of £261.

Their main idea is a small steam generator that can burn hydrogen to generate steam for industrial processes.

They then seem to have had thought how could use this for propulsion and they've had the idea of running the steam through a small steam turbine.

I very much doubt that they have developed an efficient, small steam turbine suitable for use for railway traction.


Steam turbines are mostly used for electricity generation in coal and oil fired stations. Modern gas fired stations use gas turbines or combustion turbines. Gas turbines are more efficient because they operate at higher temperatures and they take up less space. Combustion turbines can be up to 50% efficient as they use use the exhaust heat from the gas turbines to heat up steam and run a steam turbine. Pure gas turbines can start very quickly within a minute or two so they are used to cover peaks in demand. Steam turbines take hours to warm up so the combustion turbines are used for base load applications.

In the shipping industry steam turbines used to be widely used in naval vessels and ocean liners. Nowadays the shipping industry runs almost entirely on diesel engines. Steam turbines are only for nuclear powered aircraft carriers and submarines.

I can find a few examples of experimental steam turbine railway locomotives from the 1930s. In the 1960/70s the original APT and TGV prototypes were designed with gas turbines but went into production with electric power.

Virtually all hydrogen powered trains are using fuel cells to convert hydrogen to electricity and then electric motors to drive the trains.

Hydrogen fuel cells are around 40 to 60% efficient at converting hydrogen to electricity. Large steam turbines can get up to these efficiency levels but I would doubt that small steam turbines could get close to these efficiency levels.

Most hydrogen today is blue hydrogen produced from natural gas. The idea is that in future we will have green hydrogen produced by electrolysis of water with green electricity. Electrolysis is quite expensive, hydrogen is greenhouse gas and it's difficult to store and transport.

Oddly most if the promotion of hydrogen tens ti come from the fossil fuel industry.

I'm rather sceptical of green hydrogen as a major energy source. It may well have applications as a chemical feedstock and for industrial processes.

The idea of hydrogen powered steam turbine trains is bonkers and I certainly wouldn't invest in it.

 

[birchesgreen]

Many years ago there was an experimental loco which was basically a mini coal powered power station which generated electricity from burning coal which then fed several traction motors. I wish i could remember the name of it as it did sound a fascinating project.

 

[stuu]

Many years ago there was an experimental loco which was basically a mini coal powered power station which generated electricity from burning coal which then fed several traction motors. I wish i could remember the name of it as it did sound a fascinating project.

There have been a few - wikipedia lists them

Steam turbine locomotive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Unsuccessful" is the best summary.

Burning hydrogen to create steam seems like the most inefficient possible way to move a train. Fuel cells are far more efficient, and they are stupid idea until widespread green hydrogen is a thing

 

[birchesgreen]

Ah yes

There have been a few - wikipedia lists them

Steam turbine locomotive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Unsuccessful" is the best summary.

Burning hydrogen to create steam seems like the most inefficient possible way to move a train. Fuel cells are far more efficient, and they are stupid idea until widespread green hydrogen is a thing

i think it was the Reid-Ramsey one i saw, it looked a bit of a mad science contraption in the photo i saw of it.

 

[hwl]

Pure gas turbines can start very quickly within a minute or two so they are used to cover peaks in demand.

It is a actually 4 gas turbines powered by Hydrogen just not well described as such creating mass confusion.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The problem with hydrogen compared to batteries is the lousy round trip efficiency, and that is with fuel cells! Steam sounds like it would be even worse.

I really struggle to see this as more than a ruse to extract R&D money from gullible funders.

@plugwash is, in my opinion, bang on the money here.
@poffle 's post provides some good info and more depth on why this looks unworkable. Even if the company can make a demonstration work, they don't have the resource to scale it (Scaling is much, much harder than demonstrating).

Although I don't agree that hydrogen hype like this is about gullibility.

It's about magical thinking from e.g. Governments that are desperate to avoid investment in expensive electric dangleware
(previously bionic duckweed was going to solve it, now batteries are being promoted for things they are not ready to do)

It's also about cynicism; owners of gas network that face possible extinction in a world where we have very limited gas networks, and oil majors who wished that hydrogen supply and filling stations would just substitute for oil. Even if hydrogen doesn't happen, projects like this create uncertainty and delay the inevitable, enabling them to extract cash from

Then come the gullible - an army of angry people on social media who'll create posts citing this as being the technology to kill electric vehicles.
(I see a steady stream of posts about some kind of hydrogen wonder-engine from Toyota that "will kill the EV market").

 

[Nick Ashwell]

My question, as echoed by those above is, is this worth the effort?

We have fuel cells and hydrogen combustion engines are also a thing, this feels like a solution looking for a problem rather than an actually viable project

 

[Deepgreen]

No, it's not April 1st!

Class 60 diesel locomotive set to be powered by steam in new trial

Eversholt Rail has signed a contract with Steamology which will see a Class 60 locomotive converted into being powered by steam.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Interesting news. I can't quite imagine what it will be like in practice: you'll get the noise of the traction motors of course, but I imagine it will otherwise be fairly quiet? I don't know how noisy a hydrogen generator is but I don't imagine they do thrash...

Steamology did announce they were going to do this with a class 66 in 2020, presumably that never happened?

Back to the future for UK rail freight with steam powered ’66

There is a modern twist on the original power source for the railways. An English company is working to convert the diesel workhorse of the…

www.railfreight.com

Could this be the fate of the 60 that is stored at Longport with rumours about plans to fit an EMD engine? Or separate project?

Could have called it a 'Steam Shed', taking us back to the 1950s!

There have been a few - wikipedia lists them

Steam turbine locomotive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Unsuccessful" is the best summary.

Burning hydrogen to create steam seems like the most inefficient possible way to move a train. Fuel cells are far more efficient, and they are stupid idea until widespread green hydrogen is a thing

This is the trouble with so-called 'clean' hydrogen - by far the easiest way to make it at the moment seems to be by burning fossil fuels! Clean at point of use, but not overall.

 

[JLH4AC]

My question, as echoed by those above is, is this worth the effort?

We have fuel cells and hydrogen combustion engines are also a thing, this feels like a solution looking for a problem rather than an actually viable project

Hydrogen-oxygen steam generators (A form of hydrogen external combustion engine.) are theoretically more efficient than hydrogen internal combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells meaning they could be cheaper to operate, though as it is most theoretical at the time being and railway hydrogen projects have been mostly disappointing in the past it is wise to be cautious about claims about its use on the railways.

It is like all other hydrogen and battery projects, they are solutions for the self imposed problem of the government and railway industry trying to avoid the capital cost that comes from the most efficient and in the long term cheaper solution of just putting wires up.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Agree with most of the thoughtful comments above.

Worth remembering that the case for hydrogen becoming a useful part of a “green” power generation system is only plausible in the fairly distant, still somewhat hypothetical future. The scenario is that when electricity generation for power grids has got close(ish?) to being CO2 free, this requires a massive investment in solar, wind, and wave/tidal power schemes. As all these only work intermittently, if there is enough installed generation to meet demands placed on the grid, there would at times be a very large surplus of electricity generation (e.g. on windy days when the sun shines). The system as a whole is then becoming inefficient (as some wind generators/solar farms would have to be shut down at such times), unless there is sufficient capacity to store the energy from this temporary surplus of electric power. Generating and storing “green” hydrogen is one such route to storing the power. It would not matter much in this scenario if the hydrogen production process is energy-inefficient, as it is a way of using electric power that is otherwise unwanted.

The snag about all this - it’s probably 30 to 50 years away, if indeed we ever get there.

And of course storing energy as green hydrogen would have to compete with other power-storage methods, like batteries, or pumped storage schemes. All such methods have drawbacks and it’s not yet clear which one, at scale, will become the most practical and economic.

 

[hwl]

Hydrogen-oxygen steam generators (A form of hydrogen external combustion engine.) are theoretically more efficient than hydrogen internal combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells meaning they could be cheaper to operate.

Indeed they are, they are also fairly similar to a gas turbine construction chamber.
and the has better power density and lower cost than the others

It is like all other hydrogen and battery projects, they are solutions for the self imposed problem of the government and railway industry trying to avoid the capital cost that comes from the most efficient and in the long term cheaper solution of just putting wires up.

Completely agree.

 

[sprinterguy]

What s the 60 stored at Longport? Could it become an A3 or an A4

60014: So they'll be wanting to stick 'Silver Link' nameplates on the side of that.

Can't see them getting that up to 112mph, mind; about half that might be more realistic!

 

[Towers]

Can't see them getting that up to 112mph, mind; about half that might be more realistic!

Depending on the rescue locomotive, obviously. That’ll likely be the only time it covers any distance on a main line!