Combining annual season ticket with time restricted boarding extension

[MikeWh]

Quick question. Is it permissable to use an annual season ticket (zone 1-2 travelcard) with an evening out single from Putney (zone 2/3) as long as the train calls at Putney so it would be possible to board there as opposed to Waterloo or Clapham Junction? Further complication is that the train used from Richmond will not have called at Putney, but will not have been used to sail through Putney earlier. Thoughts please.

 

[30907]

I see no problem with that; what happens after Richmond is fine so long as it is within the ticket's validity.

(In fact there's no requirement for the train to have called at Putney when splitting with a season or similar.)

 

[MikeWh]

I see no problem with that; what happens after Richmond is fine so long as it is within the ticket's validity.

Thanks for that.

(In fact there's no requirement for the train to have called at Putney when splitting with a season or similar.)

Not normally, but if the restriction says not valid to board at Waterloo/Vauxhall/Clapham Junction and you are checked before Richmond then you'd have a pretty hard job saying that you didn't board at a barred station.

 

[Haywain]

Not normally, but if the restriction says not valid to board at Waterloo/Vauxhall/Clapham Junction and you are checked before Richmond then you'd have a pretty hard job saying that you didn't board at a barred station.

But they would have boarded there with a valid (season) ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

But they would have boarded there with a valid (season) ticket.

Yes, but only to a point where the train didn't call. I mean, if you're saying from an authoritative position that the boarding point for an evening out single is considered as where that single starts from, even if you couldn't board the train there, then I'm happy.

The restriction code is UR and says:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 12:01.

Additionally, not valid if boarding at the following stations:

• Blackfriars: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Cannon Street: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Charing Cross: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• City Thameslink: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Clapham Junction: after 15:59 and before 19:10
• London Bridge: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Paddington: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Vauxhall: after 15:59 and before 19:05
• Victoria: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Waterloo: after 15:59 and before 19:01
• Waterloo East: after 15:59 and before 19:01

 

[30907]

Yes, but only to a point where the train didn't call. I mean, if you're saying from an authoritative position that the boarding point for an evening out single is considered as where that single starts from, even if you couldn't board the train there, then I'm happy.

No ticket from Putney going west is valid at Waterloo etc. Evening out is no different in that respect.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, but only to a point where the train didn't call. I mean, if you're saying from an authoritative position that the boarding point for an evening out single is considered as where that single starts from, even if you couldn't board the train there, then I'm happy.

You can't board a train at a station where the ticket isn't valid, so the restriction cannot apply.

 

[MikeWh]

You can't board a train at a station where the ticket isn't valid, so the restriction cannot apply.

That's an interesting take.

A specific possible itinerary:

Board at Clapham Junction at 1628
Tickets held - zone 1 to 2 travelcard and Putney to Bracknell evening out single with restriction UR as above.
If checked between Putney and Richmond then you are using the evening out single and boarded the train at a barred location?

 

[etr221]

My view: for ticketing puposes, the station you are regarded as having boarded at, is the station you start using the ticket (in this case, Putney). The evening out single is valid from Putney, as there is no evening restriction listed from Putney. Had the train stopped at Putney you would notionally have alighted and boarded to change the ticket you were using; and there would have been no issue - you had valid tickets to and from Putney.
But, while the train did not stop, your Z1-2 travelcard is a period (annual) ticket, so there is no need for the train to stop for you to change the ticket you are using - the notional alight and board becomes even more notional.

If checked between Putney and Richmond then you are using the evening out single and boarded the train at a barred location?

Clapham Junction is not a barred location for the ticket you were using there.

 

[Haywain]

Tickets held - zone 1 to 2 travelcard and Putney to Bracknell evening out single with restriction UR as above.

It would be better to buy a Boundary Zone 2 to Bracknell ticket as that more clearly defines the ability to use it on a train not stopping at Putney. It carries the same restrictions, but as stated above they cannot apply to this ticket. And it's the same price.

 

[Watershed]

It would be better to buy a Boundary Zone 2 to Bracknell ticket as that more clearly defines the ability to use it on a train not stopping at Putney. It carries the same restrictions, but as stated above they cannot apply to this ticket. And it's the same price.

Although only a few retailers will sell you such a ticket online, such as TrainSplit or the Pico4UK based ones (Avanti and c2c at the moment, if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Haywain]

Although only a few retailers will sell you such a ticket online, such as TrainSplit or the Pico4UK based ones (Avanti and c2c at the moment, if I'm not mistaken).

This is true, but the poster on @MikeWh's site hasn't specified how they might obtain the ticket. It will be easy to buy at any ticket office in London.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for all the replies. I must admit that I'm a little nervous about pretending to miraculously appear on the train as it sails through Putney. I'm not convinced that a court would necessarily see the problem with insisting that you don't board at Clapham Junction, even if you don't use the problem ticket until a bit later. Boarding a train is a pretty specific thing and it's quite clear why they don't want London commuters using these tickets in the evening peak.

I've suggested that my poster uses an earlier train from Clapham Junction to Richmond which stops at Putney. If they have credit on the Oyster card which almost certainly holds the annual travelcard then they can still show that between Putney and Richmond without raising any suspicions. After Richmond on the Bracknell train it won't be an issue.

 

[Haywain]

There is no "miraculously appearing" as a season ticket is held, meaning the whole journey is ticketed. And the worst that can happen for travelling with a time-restricted ticket when it isn't valid is the imposition of an excess fare. However, as already set out that would be incorrect in this case.

 

[island]

I've been refused sale of a ticket in similar circumstances in Waterloo before – holding a Z1-3 annual and using a boundary zone 3 to somewhere or another, getting a train at 1058 where the boundary ticket didn't become valid until 1100. Or it might have been 0928 and wanting to use a gold card discount.

 

[Haywain]

I've been refused sale of a ticket in similar circumstances in Waterloo before – holding a Z1-3 annual and using a boundary zone 3 to somewhere or another, getting a train at 1058 where the boundary ticket didn't become valid until 1100. Or it might have been 0928 and wanting to use a gold card discount.

You should not have been refused as no offence or breach of restrictions can be committed by buying a ticket. You should have been sold the ticket and advised of the applicable restrictions, which then allows you to use them as you feel appropriate. In the circumstances you describe such use would be entirely legitimate.

 

[island]

You should not have been refused as no offence or breach of restrictions can be committed by buying a ticket. You should have been sold the ticket and advised of the applicable restrictions, which then allows you to use them as you feel appropriate. In the circumstances you describe such use would be entirely legitimate.

Indeed, but Waterloo booking office can be a law unto itself.

 

[redreni]

I would just ask, irrespective of whether the train has to stop at of before the point where the passenger stops using the season ticket and starts using the off-peak ticket, isn't this another drawback of PAYG compared to tickets?

PAYG just seems to be a massive impediment to split ticketing. In the past I've worked out the cheapest way to get to Gatwick for a lunchtime flight was to tap in at my local station, tap out en route as soon as the peak restrictions had ended, then tap back in again to pay the off-peak fare for the rest of the journey (although the split would be cheaper than the through fare anyway). In the end I did the same split but with paper tickets so that I didn't have to get off and step back a train.

And now as Mike's question illustrates, even where a season or daily zonal ticket is held and an extension fare needs to be paid, the only ways to get an off-peak fare for the extension where the relevant portion of the journey is off-peak, is either

• using a stopping train and getting off to tap out and then in again or;
• using a paper extension ticket (I don't think they're available as e-tickets, though not really clear why on earth not).

Because oyster is just going to take the tap-in time at the start of the journey and if it was during peak hours, it will charge the extension fare at peak rates.

If the rail industry still considers that paper tickets should be phased out, I would suggest it ought to be doing the necessary work to make sure the alternatives don't penalise passengers. Maybe in a case like this it would be possible to get the Putney-to-wherever ticket as an e-ticket or add it to a smartcard, but I would argue Boundary Zone tickets also need to be fulfillable by e-ticket or smartcard.

 

[island]

On the flip side, someone who taps in at (say) 06:20 gets the whole of their journey at off peak rates.

 

[redreni]

On the flip side, someone who taps in at (say) 06:20 gets the whole of their journey at off peak rates.

Yes, that's true.

PAYG also has the benefit that it allows doubling back as long as you don't leave the system, which is not something that could be permitted on tickets that allow break of journey without undermining the integrity of distance-based fares. But then PAYG doesn't permit break of journey.

So passengers can choose between PAYG and tickets and, depending on what they want to do, one might be a much better choice than the other. Which is why my view is, if you want to do away with paper tickets, it's important that PAYG isn't the sole alternative.

It was quite wrong, for example, to ditch off-peak day returns within zones 1-6 on the flawed logic that everybody ought to be using PAYG all the time, when PAYG denies Network Railcard holders and those travelling with them the discounts they're entitled to.

 

[Haywain]

But then PAYG doesn't permit break of journey.

But fare capping largely deals with that.

 

[redreni]

But fare capping largely deals with that.

Yes, and making the full range of tickets fulfillable to e-ticket and TOC smartcard would deal with it comprehensively and properly.