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Consultation: removal of cash payments from London buses
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causton
Established Member
Good that they will allow you to accrue a negative balance - in (relatively speaking) rural areas I know people would be hard done by without that feature. It does sound a bit awkward not being able to pay by cash but I haven't seen it in ages... especially with more CPCs being around that should make it easier too!
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
There are three (and possibly more) questions which I'd hope any agency would be asking before any decision is made.
Who would be inconvenienced and/or unable to travel if this arrangement was implemented?
What are the lowest levels of reliability that can be expected of the equipment (incl. the back room systems), both in terms of errors and duration?
What arrangements are in place to mitigate against the impacts of the above on passengers and ensure no less than the present level of service is assured?
For the agency, there will be similar questions which would aim to assure them of due revenue, but that's probably not a matter for this forum.
Who would be inconvenienced and/or unable to travel if this arrangement was implemented?
What are the lowest levels of reliability that can be expected of the equipment (incl. the back room systems), both in terms of errors and duration?
What arrangements are in place to mitigate against the impacts of the above on passengers and ensure no less than the present level of service is assured?
For the agency, there will be similar questions which would aim to assure them of due revenue, but that's probably not a matter for this forum.
causton
Established Member
There is an associated FAQ on the above link where they have considered the first question. It is worth remembering that TfL will let a vulnerable person on the bus for free, cash or no cash, Oyster or no Oyster, CPC or no CPC, I believe they just get the equivalent of a UPFN for the fare...? So I don't think people late at night will be forced to walk home etc if the driver thinks they look vulnerable.
causton
Established Member
Oyster Ticket Stops are at just about every newsagent to get an Oyster card. Or failing that, how did you get into London? By train? Get an Oyster or Travelcard at the station
Oyster Ticket Stops are at just about every newsagent to get an Oyster card. Or failing that, how did you get into London? By train? Get an Oyster or Travelcard at the station
Well, you could have got a lift with friends to their home in the burbs
Then you overnight, and when you get up on Sunday all the newsagents are closed.
Doesn't it just make sense that all the public services of the nation, take the National currency - the one that everyone has - whether they have oyster cards or not ? - or am I just being old fashioned
WillPS
Established Member
I've used a cash fare once. I expected to be in London for one day and purchased a travelcard for that day. Ended up stopping the night and caught the bus from my friend's to St. Pancras. The Oyster product always seems a faff to me, I'm in London once or twice a year and I prefer just to buy what I know I'll use. That said, I use Trent Barton buses for about 2/3 weeks a year and happily sit with a Mango card with a few quid on it most of the year, perhaps I should do the same with Oyster? I guess another reason I haven't is that every time I go (based on a yearly visit) I'd have to queue up to get my railcard added.
I guess I'd probably have got a cab or something if cash fares were withdrawn.
I guess I'd probably have got a cab or something if cash fares were withdrawn.
causton
Established Member
Not that it would make a difference if you were just taking a bus - as you don't get the railcard discount!
I think it's a little bit of a waste having all of these money collection facilities set up for such a small minority of journeys!
I used a cash fare about 2 years ago, when my oyster card was oin my other jacket.
I oprsonally thoink this ought to wait until _every_ bank gives out NFC cards as a matter of course, oincludiong to all basic account customers.
I believe that Nationwide do not, Lloyds have only recently started (on request only - I requested last week) and I don't think the post office card is either.
This is of course a particular issue for elderly people from Wales scotland and ireland, who may well not have a bank card.
As senior forum member davenewcastle has read this thread, may I make the suggestion that we collectively respond to this consultation? I would be happy to attempt the first draft.
My own thoughts are:
Defer this move until every bank has replaced all debit cards with NFC (I assume London buses accept both Visa wavepay® and Mastercard paypass® but unsure).
Consider accepting SNEC, Cerdyn Cymru and the Irish cards on London buses
Consider a fallback arrangement for the outer suburbs - ie board at their stop then alight outside the first open ticket stop. One 'in the red' journey is insufficient.
I oprsonally thoink this ought to wait until _every_ bank gives out NFC cards as a matter of course, oincludiong to all basic account customers.
I believe that Nationwide do not, Lloyds have only recently started (on request only - I requested last week) and I don't think the post office card is either.
This is of course a particular issue for elderly people from Wales scotland and ireland, who may well not have a bank card.
As senior forum member davenewcastle has read this thread, may I make the suggestion that we collectively respond to this consultation? I would be happy to attempt the first draft.
My own thoughts are:
Defer this move until every bank has replaced all debit cards with NFC (I assume London buses accept both Visa wavepay® and Mastercard paypass® but unsure).
Consider accepting SNEC, Cerdyn Cymru and the Irish cards on London buses
Consider a fallback arrangement for the outer suburbs - ie board at their stop then alight outside the first open ticket stop. One 'in the red' journey is insufficient.
If only 1% of people only use cash fares....who's the withdrawal going to effect? Very few people indeed. Cash fares aren't value for money and using PAYG is far easier and more convenient. I understand it may deter casual users, but its sounds like even casual users don't even pay with cash.
In West Yorkshire we are about to get a PAYG system,similar to Oyster, and I can't wait. Although I don't think cash fares are going to be eliminated, but they may do in a few years if everyone starts to use the PAYG tickets.
In West Yorkshire we are about to get a PAYG system,similar to Oyster, and I can't wait. Although I don't think cash fares are going to be eliminated, but they may do in a few years if everyone starts to use the PAYG tickets.
Well, you could have got a lift with friends to their home in the burbs
Then you overnight, and when you get up on Sunday all the newsagents are closed.
Doesn't it just make sense that all the public services of the nation, take the National currency - the one that everyone has - whether they have oyster cards or not ? - or am I just being old fashioned
To turn that argument around, I find I hardly need cash these days, everything on a debit card, in fact cash is a bit of a nuisance.
Many bus services in Europe have been 'cash free' for many years.
I work for a small firm that still receives some cash payments, it is considered a time consuming, (counting & securely storing) expensive (trips to the bank to pay in) risky and literally a grubby issue.
Good idea - Make Tfl cashless in 2014.
I should think that if 1% of London's used cash, withdrawing the option would affect a lot of people.
As a matter of principle, I think that the option of cash should remain as default for the sake of accessibility. Everybody's handled it. Everybody knows how to use it. I don't think public services should be removing the option for their own convenience.
As a matter of principle, I think that the option of cash should remain as default for the sake of accessibility. Everybody's handled it. Everybody knows how to use it. I don't think public services should be removing the option for their own convenience.
I think London is already very tourist/irregular visitor friendly as it is. The other month I went to two major cities abroad, which are quite popular with tourists.
In one city, you HAVE to pay for the rail-based transport systems with a Smartcard. If you want a new one, it costs the equivalent of 65p, non-refundable. The card also expires after three years so is no good if I want to go back at a later date. Any remaining balance is also non-refundable, although can be transferred to another card.
In the other city, you can buy single-ride paper tickets, however only from the machines (there are no ticket offices at all, even at the airport, where there was what looked like a ticket office but was staffed by someone who insisted it wasn't, and also insisted he couldn't leave the booth to help you operate the machines). There is a charge of the equivalent of £1.30 for the Smartcard, again non-refundable, but at least it is optional. Although, the ticket machines will try and 'trick' you into taking the Smartcard by adding the cost to the ticket price if you select the 'wrong' option. Any remaining balance is also non-refundable.
In one city, you HAVE to pay for the rail-based transport systems with a Smartcard. If you want a new one, it costs the equivalent of 65p, non-refundable. The card also expires after three years so is no good if I want to go back at a later date. Any remaining balance is also non-refundable, although can be transferred to another card.
In the other city, you can buy single-ride paper tickets, however only from the machines (there are no ticket offices at all, even at the airport, where there was what looked like a ticket office but was staffed by someone who insisted it wasn't, and also insisted he couldn't leave the booth to help you operate the machines). There is a charge of the equivalent of £1.30 for the Smartcard, again non-refundable, but at least it is optional. Although, the ticket machines will try and 'trick' you into taking the Smartcard by adding the cost to the ticket price if you select the 'wrong' option. Any remaining balance is also non-refundable.
burneside
Member
In my experience whenever a consultation takes place it means the decision has already been made and the “consultation” is just a sop to soften up people into accepting the inevitable, cash fares will soon be history on London’s buses. And now there is talk of closing every ticket office on the underground, no doubt there will be a sham consultation for that too.
causton
Established Member
Contactless cards are contactless cards. If it has the contactless symbol it will be accepted - if not, it won't, regardless of what account type you have. This is because contactless payments are not online authorised anyway!
The only time I've been in London without a Travelcard since Oyster started I paid cash for a bus, at the bus stop. However it was during a tube strike and I couldn't get on the first three buses so I ended up walking. If I hadn't been claiming it back I would have written a strong email to TfL for a badly thought out service, normal pay-on-bus at least allows you to not pay if you can't get on.
So, Oyster would stop that happening, however for those who go to London infrequently, its a bit of a faff having one, and you have to get it when you are already in London (I don't think you can buy them in Yorkshire?)
As some people have said, with the amount of bus journeys in London, 1% is still 23 million journeys a year.
I purposely asked for a non contactless card from HSBC, that way if I lose it it can't be used to make lots of low value transactions by anyone that finds it.
So, Oyster would stop that happening, however for those who go to London infrequently, its a bit of a faff having one, and you have to get it when you are already in London (I don't think you can buy them in Yorkshire?)
As some people have said, with the amount of bus journeys in London, 1% is still 23 million journeys a year.
I purposely asked for a non contactless card from HSBC, that way if I lose it it can't be used to make lots of low value transactions by anyone that finds it.
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You can buy an Oyster over the net, nicely registered (in case of future loss) and with as much credit as you want.
But perhaps one day you might be able to get travel smart cards in supermarkets like gift cards? Hey, even cards for foreign travel at airports...
But perhaps one day you might be able to get travel smart cards in supermarkets like gift cards? Hey, even cards for foreign travel at airports...
WestCoast
Established Member
Three out of four of my cards are contactless enabled, I'd have a lot of choice to pay!
None of mine are. One Ordered though
And less than 0.1% of bus.users are in a wheelchair yet the whole design of buses has been changed to accomodate them.
A friend of mine drives night buses in London and there are certainly a lot more than 1% of passengers paying cash.
I've also heard suggestions (although not from the company themselves) that Brighton & Hove intend to remove cash payments in the not too distant future.
The overiding question is, 2am a passengers gets on with no pass or oyster what happens? And how is a bus driver supposed to decide who is and isn't vulnerable without leaving themselves wide open to allegations of being prejudice?
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I can only think of 1 Yorkshire situation - You can buy an Oyster card with credit loaded from a Hull Trains Train Manager!
Its worth pointing out that you are still covered for such transactions - your bank will refund them if you didn't make them (so long as the loss is reported promptly). Also, often the only option for a non contactless card is an online only card.
The one flaw I can see with doing capping for a period longer than a day is that of deciding where to start the capping period.
For example, someone on shift work might work Wednesday - Friday one week, get the weekend off, then work Monday - Wednesday the next week before going on holiday. If the seven day cap runs Sunday to Saturday, that falls into two different weeks, whereas they've got a run of seven days from Wednesday to Tuesday.
The original rationale for low floor buses was to improve boarding times and accommodate buggies. It was then realised that improved wheelchair accessibility was a happy coincidence.
That scenario already exists if someone tries to board with no cash. Such a passenger could ask fellow passengers if they would agree to use their bank card in exchange for cash.
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It might be decided that the cap has to start on a particular day. That is contrary to existing Bus Pass rules but such rules apply in other places.
moogal
Member
I've had experiences before where an Oyster card has stopped working (e.g. a friend's one got a tiny crack in it which stopped it being readable) - in this situation she was able to pay a cash fare to get the bus home (where her local tube station replaced it for her). Without that option, what would she do under this new rules?
It's things like that that make me think there should still be the option to pay cash, even if they introduce some sort of "exact fare, no change" rules like TWM do, so the driver doesn't have the security issue of a float to worry about.
It's things like that that make me think there should still be the option to pay cash, even if they introduce some sort of "exact fare, no change" rules like TWM do, so the driver doesn't have the security issue of a float to worry about.
But it would obviously cost a lot of money to fit cash boxes like the TWM buses have and with so few people paying cash nowadays (although I'm sure it is more than 1%) it wouldn't be cost effective.
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