Could Stockport to Stalybridge be made more frequent?

[nw1]

I agree that Parlies are a waste of time and money; they should just be properly closed. Though again there's maybe the odd one that might cost nothing, e.g. Stockport-Stalybridge is, or was, putting stops in an ECS that went that way anyway, and there will be fares income from enthusiasts riding it.

mods note - split from here

OT I know but could Stockport-Stalybridge actually be upgraded to a useful service, e.g. half hourly? Would people use it from the intermediate stations as a way to reach Stockport (and destinations south of there via connection) or Yorkshire (via Stalybridge)?

I agree that parliamentary services should either be upgraded or not run at all, though. As they are, they are basically useless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could make it useful, probably as Stockport-Manc Vic. However you'd want to move Denton station (it's not in a useful place, just at the side of a main road away from where people live and work) and it can't be pathed at Stockport until HS2 2B.

 

[Chester1]

You could make it useful, probably as Stockport-Manc Vic. However you'd want to move Denton station (it's not in a useful place, just at the side of a main road away from where people live and work) and it can't be pathed at Stockport until HS2 2B.

As a former resident of Stockport, I agree. Stockport - Stalybridge would be a useless service. It existed to provide connections when there was not a high frequency of services between Piccadilly and Leeds. Stockport to Victoria would provide some good connections and easier journeys to northern parts of city centre but as you point out there isn't the spare capacity currently.

If there was substantial investment then a Heaton Norris Station (next to A6) could be the start / end of services. Maybe an interchange station with Ashton West Metrolink stop. I am not sure even Heaton Norris - Reddish South - Denton - Ashton West could support an hourly service. Providing a link between Stockport and Victoria would be the biggest flow on the line and paths aren't available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was done, half hourly, ideally electrified, I'd go with these - the locations should mostly be obvious from an OS map.

Stockport
Heaton Norris (as you suggest)
Reddish South (just north of the A6188)
Reddish Green (present Reddish South)
Mill Lane for North Reddish
Dane Bank (by the road crossing)
Denton (as is)
Audenshaw South and Hooley Hill
Ashton Moss (near A635)
Droylsdon East
Medlock Vale
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Victoria

That's actually quite a lot of useful places to serve. As a 2tph Merseyrail like service I reckon it'd be quite well used. Alternatively it could be attached to Metrolink in some way.

While it'd require a reverse I could see the sense in interworking it with a service from Piccadilly calling at Longsight (new), Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, allowing all other services to omit those and giving access to Picc.

Or how about a real outlier - a Manchester South Circle, joining up Picc and Vic via Ordsall?

Obviously not possible pre HS2/NPR.

 

[PTR 444]

If it was done, half hourly, ideally electrified, I'd go with these - the locations should mostly be obvious from an OS map.

Stockport
Heaton Norris (as you suggest)
Reddish South (just north of the A6188)
Reddish Green (present Reddish South)
Mill Lane for North Reddish
Dane Bank (by the road crossing)
Denton (as is)
Audenshaw South and Hooley Hill
Ashton Moss (near A635)
Droylsdon East
Medlock Vale
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Victoria

That's actually quite a lot of useful places to serve. As a 2tph Merseyrail like service I reckon it'd be quite well used. Alternatively it could be attached to Metrolink in some way.

While it'd require a reverse I could see the sense in interworking it with a service from Piccadilly calling at Longsight (new), Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, allowing all other services to omit those and giving access to Picc.

Or how about a real outlier - a Manchester South Circle, joining up Picc and Vic via Ordsall?

Obviously not possible pre HS2/NPR.

I actually think this would be a really useful way of providing a direct service between Bolton and Stockport without having to utilise Castlefield. The big question is which services do you alter to make this a reality?

 

[The Planner]

I actually think this would be a really useful way of providing a direct service between Bolton and Stockport without having to utilise Castlefield. The big question is which services do you alter to make this a reality?

It would be around 44-45 minutes if you stopped at the Denton line stations as well as Vic and the Salfords. About 3-4 minutes slower than the change at Picc from Dec 22. There aren't any services you could divert without disadvantaging other passengers. Divert the Alderley Edge and Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel get a lop sided timetable.

 

[Bald Rick]

There has been some work done on this as it was one of the Restoring Your Railway proposals.

Personally I can’t see how it will make a case.

 

[PTR 444]

It would be around 44-45 minutes if you stopped at the Denton line stations as well as Vic and the Salfords. About 3-4 minutes slower than the change at Picc from Dec 22. There aren't any services you could divert without disadvantaging other passengers. Divert the Alderley Edge and Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel get a lop sided timetable.

3-4 mins difference will still be small enough to sway some passengers onto a slower direct service if it existed, especially with the hassle of changing at Piccadilly platforms 13/14

 

[Ash Bridge]

If it was done, half hourly, ideally electrified, I'd go with these - the locations should mostly be obvious from an OS map.

Stockport
Heaton Norris (as you suggest)
Reddish South(just north of the A6188)
Reddish Green (present Reddish South)
Mill Lane for North Reddish
Dane Bank (by the road crossing)
Denton (as is)
Audenshaw South and Hooley Hill
Ashton Moss (near A635)
Droylsdon East
Medlock Vale
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Victoria

That's actually quite a lot of useful places to serve. As a 2tph Merseyrail like service I reckon it'd be quite well used. Alternatively it could be attached to Metrolink in some way.

While it'd require a reverse I could see the sense in interworking it with a service from Piccadilly calling at Longsight (new), Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, allowing all other services to omit those and giving access to Picc.

Or how about a real outlier - a Manchester South Circle, joining up Picc and Vic via Ordsall?

Obviously not possible pre HS2/NPR.

You should name that one Ash Bridge

 

[Starmill]

If it was done, half hourly, ideally electrified, I'd go with these - the locations should mostly be obvious from an OS map.

Stockport
Heaton Norris (as you suggest)
Reddish South (just north of the A6188)
Reddish Green (present Reddish South)
Mill Lane for North Reddish
Dane Bank (by the road crossing)
Denton (as is)
Audenshaw South and Hooley Hill
Ashton Moss (near A635)
Droylsdon East
Medlock Vale
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Victoria

That's actually quite a lot of useful places to serve. As a 2tph Merseyrail like service I reckon it'd be quite well used. Alternatively it could be attached to Metrolink in some way.

While it'd require a reverse I could see the sense in interworking it with a service from Piccadilly calling at Longsight (new), Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, allowing all other services to omit those and giving access to Picc.

Or how about a real outlier - a Manchester South Circle, joining up Picc and Vic via Ordsall?

Obviously not possible pre HS2/NPR.

A service that just does Manchester Victoria - Reddish South, with one new station at the proposed Droylsden location for Stalybridge services to stop at too, would capture nearly all of these benefits at far lower cost. The business case would be overwhelmingly about saving people going into Manchester city centre a bit of time and / or lowering the carbon intensity of their travel. Little hope for 2tph to turn back on line at Reddish South, however.

 

[The Planner]

3-4 mins difference will still be small enough to sway some passengers onto a slower direct service if it existed, especially with the hassle of changing at Piccadilly platforms 13/14

If it was the May 22 timetable then it wouldn't stand a chance as you can do it 30 odd minutes. The journey time is dependent on no clashes whatsoever on the journey, which with Heaton Norris, Miles Platting, Vic etc is no guarentee.

 

[javelin]

As with much of Manchester's heavy rail, a perfectly usable line prevented from having a good service by infrastructure constraints elsewhere.

This was the RYR submission letter,

https://twitter.com/GwynneMP/status/1271484896947646464?s=20&t=J5W278jGeTRXVufLfGY-Ew

The claim is 2tph heavy rail to Victoria may be possible, but that could be optimistic.

There's potentially far more options using tram-trains, with higher frequencies and possibly more service destinations by avoiding constraints. Would need more £££ for the various chords though.

It may still be possible to tram-train to Victoria as well if TPE is eventually diverted onto NPR between Piccadilly and Marsden.

 

[faltskog36abba]

If it was done, half hourly, ideally electrified, I'd go with these - the locations should mostly be obvious from an OS map.

Stockport
Heaton Norris (as you suggest)
Reddish South (just north of the A6188)
Reddish Green (present Reddish South)
Mill Lane for North Reddish
Dane Bank (by the road crossing)
Denton (as is)
Audenshaw South and Hooley Hill
Ashton Moss (near A635)
Droylsdon East
Medlock Vale
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Victoria

That's actually quite a lot of useful places to serve. As a 2tph Merseyrail like service I reckon it'd be quite well used. Alternatively it could be attached to Metrolink in some way.

While it'd require a reverse I could see the sense in interworking it with a service from Piccadilly calling at Longsight (new), Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, allowing all other services to omit those and giving access to Picc.

Or how about a real outlier - a Manchester South Circle, joining up Picc and Vic via Ordsall?

Obviously not possible pre HS2/NPR.

I like the Idea of this route and stations called. Just out of Interest where would the station at Newton heath be? Near ten acres lane/ Not far from the old park Station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite sure to be honest, I don't know the area well.

 

[StretfordEnd96]

I like the Idea of this route and stations called. Just out of Interest where would the station at Newton heath be? Near ten acres lane/ Not far from the old park Station?

Not quite sure to be honest, I don't know the area well.

Not sure about the old Park station - this was closed in relatively modern times in 1995 partly because it never had the passenger numbers - it is in a bit of a quieter spot in terms of closeness to houses etc. than other areas on the line.

Perhaps more ideal would be the location of the old 'Clayton Bridge' station - around 1 mile or so east down the line from where you were suggesting faltskog36abba - this was closed in 1968 along with a number of other stations on the Huddersfield Line at the time (Droylsden, Saddleworth, Diggle, Slaithwaite etc.)

This is in a better location but is very much to the extreme south of Newton Heath and it may make more sense if a station was put here to keep its traditional Victorian name of 'Clayton Bridge' rather than Newton Heath -

The area Newton Heath I always find quite broad and open to local interpretation of its boundaries, this is highlighted in railway terms by the fact the original 'Newton Heath' station (closed 1966) was located much further north, on the Calder Valley line, the 'Dean Lane' station (the site of which is now the 'Newton Heath and Moston' tram stop) was located on the Oldham Loop Line, Park Railway Station (closed 1995) is also within the boundaries of Newton Heath and was on the Huddersfield Line, and the aforementioned Clayton Bridge, was, being on the north side of the River Medlock, located also in the south eastern extremities of Newton Heath rather than the area of Clayton itself.

Add in that Central Park tram stop also now exists (and also within Newton Heath) - it's fair to say the area is largely already well served by rail of some description - aside from, perhaps, as I said, the area around the erstwhile Clayton Bridge station.

 

[Chester1]

Not sure about the old Park station - this was closed in relatively modern times in 1995 partly because it never had the passenger numbers - it is in a bit of a quieter spot in terms of closeness to houses etc. than other areas on the line.

Perhaps more ideal would be the location of the old 'Clayton Bridge' station - around 1 mile or so east down the line from where you were suggesting faltskog36abba - this was closed in 1968 along with a number of other stations on the Huddersfield Line at the time (Droylsden, Saddleworth, Diggle, Slaithwaite etc.)

This is in a better location but is very much to the extreme south of Newton Heath and it may make more sense if a station was put here to keep its traditional Victorian name of 'Clayton Bridge' rather than Newton Heath -

The area Newton Heath I always find quite broad and open to local interpretation of its boundaries, this is highlighted in railway terms by the fact the original 'Newton Heath' station (closed 1966) was located much further north, on the Calder Valley line, the 'Dean Lane' station (the site of which is now the 'Newton Heath and Moston' tram stop) was located on the Oldham Loop Line, Park Railway Station (closed 1995) is also within the boundaries of Newton Heath and was on the Huddersfield Line, and the aforementioned Clayton Bridge, was, being on the north side of the River Medlock, located also in the south eastern extremities of Newton Heath rather than the area of Clayton itself.

Add in that Central Park tram stop also now exists (and also within Newton Heath) - it's fair to say the area is largely already well served by rail of some description - aside from, perhaps, as I said, the area around the erstwhile Clayton Bridge station.

I don't think additional stations on the main line would be a good idea because of pathing stoppers, unless NPR is built to Marsden removing long distance services. Thats why I suggested if the line were to have frequent passenger services then the two places that are obvious are Heaton Norris (next to A6) and interchange station near Ashton West Tram stop (before junction with main line).

 

[nr758123]

This feels like a solution in search of a problem. Reddish South is less than 1½ miles from two stations which already have a frequent service, and Denton station is badly sited for both the town centre and residential areas. There's a case for trying to improve public transport to Denton town centre and Haughton Green, neither of which have ever had rail access, but putting a passenger service on the existing line doesn't achieve this.

 

[Bevan Price]

Additional stops would be more suitable for a new Metrolink route than a "heavy rail" route. However, sharing a route between trams and the heavy freight trains using that route would be less than ideal in my opinion.

IF paths could be found, the best use for the route would include re-doubling much of the single-line section (except possibly the bridge over the M57), and run half-hourly from Stockport calling only at Reddish South, possibly Clayton Bridge, and Manchester Victoria only.
As noted above, Denton is badly situated for the local area; the factories once served by Park have largely gone, as have the masses of local housing once served by Miles Platting - but mostly removed by slum clearances after the 1960s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This feels like a solution in search of a problem. Reddish South is less than 1½ miles from two stations which already have a frequent service, and Denton station is badly sited for both the town centre and residential areas. There's a case for trying to improve public transport to Denton town centre and Haughton Green, neither of which have ever had rail access, but putting a passenger service on the existing line doesn't achieve this.

Urban rail requires a much denser pattern of stations than 1.5 mile gaps, as people will generally walk 500m max, and walking is the main way to reach urban railway stations. That's why many Metrolink and Merseyrail stations are only about 1km apart, and a few even closer. Thus, that's still justified to me.

 

[Bevan Price]

Urban rail requires a much denser pattern of stations than 1.5 mile gaps, as people will generally walk 500m max, and walking is the main way to reach urban railway stations. That's why many Metrolink and Merseyrail stations are only about 1km apart, and a few even closer. Thus, that's still justified to me.

Yes - but it is pointless building a station if the local population is rather low in some areas close to the line - as is the case for parts of the Stockport / Manchester Victoria route.

 

[Chester1]

Additional stops would be more suitable for a new Metrolink route than a "heavy rail" route. However, sharing a route between trams and the heavy freight trains using that route would be less than ideal in my opinion.

IF paths could be found, the best use for the route would include re-doubling much of the single-line section (except possibly the bridge over the M57), and run half-hourly from Stockport calling only at Reddish South, possibly Clayton Bridge, and Manchester Victoria only.
As noted above, Denton is badly situated for the local area; the factories once served by Park have largely gone, as have the masses of local housing once served by Miles Platting - but mostly removed by slum clearances after the 1960s.

Tram trains are suitable for sharing with freight e.g. Sheffield. I can't imagine it being viable to provide the line a meaningful service but miss Denton. Whether it would be used heavily or not there would be a local backlash.

 

[johnnychips]

Tram trains are suitable for sharing with freight e.g. Sheffield. I can't imagine it being viable to provide the line a meaningful service but miss Denton. Whether it would be used heavily or not there would be a local backlash.

As @Bevan Price stated, Denton station is situated near the middle of a motorway/A57 interchange, warehouses, supermarkets and a few houses, nowhere near the town centre. I doubt people in Denton know it exists, and whatever the congestion in Manchester, it will be quicker to get the Stagecoach 201 every 12 minutes than get to the station (by the 201), get off and wait for a train. There would be no backlash.

 

[Chester1]

As @Bevan Price stated, Denton station is situated near the middle of a motorway/A57 interchange, warehouses, supermarkets and a few houses, nowhere near the town centre. I doubt people in Denton know it exists, and whatever the congestion in Manchester, it will be quicker to get the Stagecoach 201 every 12 minutes than get to the station (by the 201), get off and wait for a train. There would be no backlash.

Logically there shouldn't be but local politicians can create a backlash out of very little. All the local proposals to have a regular service on the line include both stations.

 

[johnnychips]

Logically there shouldn't be but local politicians can create a backlash out of very little. All the local proposals to have a regular service on the line include both stations.

I really should know, but does the idea involve not stopping at Denton but passing through, or is there some avoiding line?

I see your point: ‘Oh isn’t it disgusting the butcher’s shop is closing?’ ‘Do you ever use it?’ ‘Erm…’

 

[Chester1]

I really should know, but does the idea involve not stopping at Denton but passing through, or is there some avoiding line?

I see your point: ‘Oh isn’t it disgusting the butcher’s shop is closing?’ ‘Do you ever use it?’ ‘Erm…’

All the proposals I have seen have both services getting same service. I can't recall one that misses out Denton. All trains have to pass through the station. Most recent plan was for funding under Restoring Your Railway which proposed a half hourly service for both Reddish South and Denton. There would be some traffic for Denton for people changing trains at Victoria. I agree that the number of people using it for journeys starting or ending in city centre would be very small.

Its all very academic while the paths don't exist.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Superficially, without any local knowledge of either, the Stockport–Stalybridge line reminds me of the Bondy–Aulnay-sous-Bois line in Paris, connecting two mainlines out in the suburbs. That line has been converted to tram Line 4 using tram-trains, running either the length of the old alignment, or from Bondy leaving the line halfway onto a new street-running route. Could something like that be applied here in Greater Manchester?