Could we see a Northern electric stopper from York to Huddersfield?

[Roast Veg]

Moderator note: split from

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Thanks for these. Most of the photos I have seen are from inside the station or lineside, so showing this aspect is good. Thanks again.

www.railforums.co.uk

Northern Rail to add 450 trains to network - Place North West

The investment is largest the operator has ever made in its fleet and will see two-thirds of the existing rolling stock substituted over the next 10 years.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

I read in the above media outlet that the plan is for Northern to operate York to Huddersfield as an EMU stopper:

The first phase will target the replacement of ageing Class 150, 155, and 156 trains, and also see 12 electric three-carriage trains operating local services between York, Leeds, Huddersfield, and Manchester following the TransPennine Route Upgrade.

Does this make sense from an operational perspective?

 

[Spartacus]

I read in one media outlet that the plan is for Northern to operate York to Huddersfield as an EMU stopper. Does this make sense from an operational perspective?

From a reliability point of view it's exactly the kind of 'long distance' stopper I hate, you'd sort the main issues out with the current plan with the 4 tracking west of Dewsbury, and ruin it with it being held for expresses on the 2 track sections either side of Leeds. Like on a single line with passing loops you'd be unlikely to gain time back unless there were big turnaround at either end, it'd only steadily get worse, with the temptation to turn it back short when it becomes unrecoverable making the whole timetable worse. Far better would be to keep them separate.

 

[Halish Railway]

I read in one media outlet that the plan is for Northern to operate York to Huddersfield as an EMU stopper. Does this make sense from an operational perspective?

Are you sure that this isn’t just the York to Manchester Piccadilly service that’s planned to be transferred to Northern? Combining the York to Leeds and Leeds to Huddersfield services wouldn’t make much sense.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are you sure that this isn’t just the York to Manchester Piccadilly service that’s planned to be transferred to Northern? Combining the York to Leeds and Leeds to Huddersfield services wouldn’t make much sense.

I thought the same thing, there was an article about northern eventually taking that route in Modern Railways recently.

 

[Manutd1999]

Even with electrification there won't be enough time for a stopper to run the 2-track section between Dewsbury and York without being caught by the next express. It could work if Cross Gates is 4-tracked but it's unclear if that is happening....

 

[Halish Railway]

The only explanation I can think of is that Northern are planning to use six carriage trains on these services which would prevent the use of platforms 7, 13 and 14 at Leeds, but that seems like a massive over-provision.

 

[xotGD]

Even with electrification there won't be enough time for a stopper to run the 2-track section between Dewsbury and York without being caught by the next express. It could work if Cross Gates is 4-tracked but it's unclear if that is happening....

They would be overtaken at Leeds.

 

[3RDGEN]

One of the expected outputs of TRU is two Huddersfield - Leeds stopping services per hour so where is the extra one going at Leeds since the west end platforms are already congested? Joining one of the stoppers with the existing Leeds - York stopper would ease that issue if a path through the station can be found, with it waiting to allow the following express to pass, unless a loop/four track section comes out of the Neville Hill works.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I wonder if one could run via Castleford if that section was ever electrified ?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern's new stock tender includes 11 4 car EMUs, which they specifically say are for TRU.

 

[deltic08]

I wonder if one could run via Castleford if that section was ever electrified ?

With battery bimodes this could easily be achieved on the unelectrified stretch between Ravensthorpe and Church Fenton.

 

[xotGD]

I wonder if one could run via Castleford if that section was ever electrified ?

Having the York to Leeds stopper and the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper bypassing Leeds would be suboptimal.

 

[IanXC]

Moderator note: split from

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Thanks for these. Most of the photos I have seen are from inside the station or lineside, so showing this aspect is good. Thanks again.

www.railforums.co.uk

Northern Rail to add 450 trains to network - Place North West

The investment is largest the operator has ever made in its fleet and will see two-thirds of the existing rolling stock substituted over the next 10 years.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

I read in the above media outlet that the plan is for Northern to operate York to Huddersfield as an EMU stopper:



Does this make sense from an operational perspective?

I think you're reading too much into that quote, "local services between York, Leeds, Huddersfield, and Manchester following the TransPennine Route Upgrade" doesn't necessarily mean one service, it could quite easily be "between York and Leeds" "between Leeds and Huddersfield" and "between Huddersfield and Manchester". Given TPE's history of running a Leeds to Manchester stopper I think its a massive jump to assume a York to Manchester stopper!

Are you sure that this isn’t just the York to Manchester Piccadilly service that’s planned to be transferred to Northern? Combining the York to Leeds and Leeds to Huddersfield services wouldn’t make much sense.

Which York to Manchester Piccadilly service are you referring to? I've not seen anything to even hint at the idea a current TPE service of that description is being transferred to Northern.

Platform capacity at Leeds is likely to be the driver in any of this - particularly if 6 cars is the desired formation, although finding a place for a second Huddersfield stopper each hour with the current platform availability at Leeds would be challenging, pending what other service or formation changes might be envisaged.

Given that the York to Leeds stopper, Leeds to Huddersfield stopper and Huddersfield to Manchester stoppers all take 2 units diagrams currently, and the aspiration is for a half hourly service on some of those routes, I'd suggest that 11 units doesn't particularly suggest 6 cars.

 

[Nottingham59]

I understand that Leeds is constrained by platform capacity, but are the biggest constraints on the through platforms, or the bays?

 

[IanXC]

I understand that Leeds is constrained by platform capacity, but are the biggest constraints on the through platforms, or the bays?

Theres no easy answer to that. Really depends on the time in the hour as much as anything.

Stoppers from Huddersfield want to be arriving in p12, p13, p15, p16 or p17 to avoid crossing too much of the throat, if they then have to layover to go back in the direction they arrived from, then you want a bay, p17 is already used almost all of the hour with services towards Woodlesford, p13 is occupied for most of the hour with the current Huddersfield stopper and the Wigan service, so add another Huddersfield stopper and its starts to get especially challenging.

 

[Nottingham59]

Stoppers from Huddersfield want to be arriving in p12, p13, p15, p16 or p17 to avoid crossing too much of the throat, if they then have to layover to go back in the direction they arrived from, then you want a bay, p17 is already used almost all of the hour with services towards Woodlesford, p13 is occupied for most of the hour with the current Huddersfield stopper and the Wigan service, so add another Huddersfield stopper and its starts to get especially challenging.

Thanks. So it might well make sense for one Huddersfield stopper to continue on to York, to avoid occupying platforms in Leeds. If the paths matched of course.

 

[RHolmes]

I think you're reading too much into that quote, "local services between York, Leeds, Huddersfield, and Manchester following the TransPennine Route Upgrade" doesn't necessarily mean one service, it could quite easily be "between York and Leeds" "between Leeds and Huddersfield" and "between Huddersfield and Manchester". Given TPE's history of running a Leeds to Manchester stopper I think its a massive jump to assume a York to Manchester stopper!

I’d imagine they’re referring to the current York to Manchester via Wakefield which may move to northern post TPRU.

(I have also heard internally that will be the expectation post TPRU - or rather that is the current expectation as it stands pre-GBR)

Platform capacity at Leeds is likely to be the driver in any of this - particularly if 6 cars is the desired formation, although finding a place for a second Huddersfield stopper each hour with the current platform availability at Leeds would be challenging, pending what other service or formation changes might be envisaged.

Given that the York to Leeds stopper, Leeds to Huddersfield stopper and Huddersfield to Manchester stoppers all take 2 units diagrams currently, and the aspiration is for a half hourly service on some of those routes, I'd suggest that 11 units doesn't particularly suggest 6 cars.

Huddersfield to Manchester actually takes an additional 2 in the peak timings.

If there was to be a post-TPRU 30 minute stopping service throughout Manchester to York and based on the rough current 35 minute journey time of Leeds to York and 90 minutes Leeds to Piccadilly, the minimum trains that would be required would be 9 if paths could be linked up in such a way

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks. So it might well make sense for one Huddersfield stopper to continue on to York, to avoid occupying platforms in Leeds. If the paths matched of course.

The downside of linking the York stopper to anything the other side of Leeds is that adds an additional service that needs to use a through platform. There are two north/east-facing bays that don't see much use (though more than they used to now there's a dedicated York stopper, rather than almost everything running as an extension of Calder Valley services like it was back in the 1990s) as there's a big imbalance between services either side of Leeds.

 

[IanXC]

I’d imagine they’re referring to the current York to Manchester via Wakefield which may move to northern post TPRU.

(I have also heard internally that will be the expectation post TPRU - or rather that is the current expectation as it stands pre-GBR)

There would be no point in Northern ordering pure EMUs for the York to Manchester via Wakefield!

Huddersfield to Manchester actually takes an additional 2 in the peak timings.

If there was to be a post-TPRU 30 minute stopping service throughout Manchester to York and based on the rough current 35 minute journey time of Leeds to York and 90 minutes Leeds to Piccadilly, the minimum trains that would be required would be 9 if paths could be linked up in such a way

An additional 2 that would not be required if there was a half hourly stopper all day.

To spell it out:
York to Leeds hourly stopper: 2 units
Leeds to Huddersfield half hourly stopper: 4 units
Huddersfield to Manchester half hourly stopper: 4 units

Which therefore requires 10 units each day, 90.9% availability from the proposed order of 11 units.

There is the question of whether the new 11 actually run all of those, or whether they are all based in Yorkshire, with 4x 331 3 car units returning to Manchester, to cover the Huddersfield - Manchester section (and therefore prevent Northern Manchester crews needed to learn a new unit type).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is the question of whether the new 11 actually run all of those, or whether they are all based in Yorkshire, with 4x 331 3 car units returning to Manchester, to cover the Huddersfield - Manchester section (and therefore prevent Northern Manchester crews needed to learn a new unit type).

Northern Manchester crews will need to relearn the route in any case, so them also learning a new unit wouldn't add as much in terms of time and cost as it otherwise would.

 

[RHolmes]

To spell it out:
York to Leeds hourly stopper: 2 units
Leeds to Huddersfield half hourly stopper: 4 units
Huddersfield to Manchester half hourly stopper: 4 units

Which therefore requires 10 units each day, 90.9% availability from the proposed order of 11 units.

Huddersfield to Manchester half hourly frequency would still be 2 units, not 4.

The others would be some of multi-modal unit running York to Manchester via Wakefield every other half hour

 

[IanXC]

Northern Manchester crews will need to relearn the route in any case, so them also learning a new unit wouldn't add as much in terms of time and cost as it otherwise would.

You wouldn't do driver training on a new route and traction type at the same time. Traction conversion needs the driver to have some reference point to the traction they already sign, so doing it while also learning a new route would not be advisable.

Huddersfield to Manchester half hourly frequency would still be 2 units, not 4.

The others would be some of multi-modal unit running York to Manchester via Wakefield every other half hour

I think your maths has gone very wrong here somewhere:

0730 MAN - HUD 0810 forms 0830 HUD - MAN 0910 forms 0930 MAN - HUD 1010
0800 MAN - HUD 0840 forms 0900 HUD - MAN 0940....
0830 MAN - HUD 0910 forms 0930 HUD - MAN 1010....
0900 MAN - HUD 0940 forms 1000 HUD - MAN 1040....

(Assuming a flat 40 minute journey time and round timings)

So 4 units required. In order to run a half hourly service with 2 units you'd need a journey time of 25 minutes or less. Which seems, shall we say, ambitious.

 

[xotGD]

0730 MAN - HUD 0810 forms 0830 HUD - MAN 0910 forms 0930 MAN - HUD 1010

Or...

0730 MAN - HUD 0810 forms 0815 HUD - MAN 0855 forms 0900 MAN - HUD 0940

Three units, no resilience, and the timetable collapses by lunchtime.

 

[Starmill]

The service between York and Castleford has only been given funding because it's a cost-effective way of providing alternatives during the closures, and because it's mitigated the cost of route refreshing.

To retain this link after the project budget has been spent a new business case would need to be prepared. It's a very low demand link between Wakefield and York given it's using the secondary station in Wakefield.

 

[RHolmes]

I think your maths has gone very wrong here somewhere:

0730 MAN - HUD 0810 forms 0830 HUD - MAN 0910 forms 0930 MAN - HUD 1010
0800 MAN - HUD 0840 forms 0900 HUD - MAN 0940....
0830 MAN - HUD 0910 forms 0930 HUD - MAN 1010....
0900 MAN - HUD 0940 forms 1000 HUD - MAN 1040....

(Assuming a flat 40 minute journey time and round timings)

So 4 units required. In order to run a half hourly service with 2 units you'd need a journey time of 25 minutes or less. Which seems, shall we say, ambitious.

The 00 departures would be an EMU
The 30 departures would be a Multi-modal York all stations via Wakefield service

Therefore it would be 2 EMU

It’s no different to the current service pattern now, with the ‘other’ service extending to york

 

[IanXC]

The 00 departures would be an EMU
The 30 departures would be a Multi-modal York all stations via Wakefield service

Therefore it would be 2 EMU

It’s no different to the current service pattern now, with the ‘other’ service extending to york

Except that there is no information that the Manchester to York via Wakefield has any multi-modal units ordered for it.

In any case, I was responding to your suggestion that there could be a half hourly through stopper from Manchester to York using 9 units, and that 2 additional ones would be needed for what you called "peak timings" where I presume you mean peak additionals. This clearly cannot be the case as the upgrade is only specified to allow for 2tph stoppers, your 2tph Manchester to York *and* 1tph stopper to York via Wakefield therefore doesn't fit. Added to the fact you simply cannot viably order 11 units to cover 11 diagrams.