I am stuck on a service due to depart Crewe 40 minutes ago. Apparently there is an individual just North of the station threatening to jump onto the lines. Power seems to have been cut to the WCML wires on the through lines and all services have ceased, although it looks like the South-facing bay platforms are still operational
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Crewe Delays 16 Sep
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RailUK Forums
LOL The Irony
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Are you heading towards Manchester or Warrington/Liverpool?
I am attempting to reach Bristol, and the intention was/is to travel via Birmingham New St
Apparently the singal failure this morning is at Cheadle Hulme and latest from National Rail is that disruption is expected until 13:00, so must be something serious that has happened.
Avanti West Coast have cancelled all :35 Manchester-Euston via Macclesfield & Stoke-on-Trent & :55 Manchester-Euston via Wilmslow & Crewe for the next couple of hours
All :15 Manchester-Euston departures are calling additionaly at Macclesfield
Avanti West Coast have cancelled all :35 Manchester-Euston via Macclesfield & Stoke-on-Trent & :55 Manchester-Euston via Wilmslow & Crewe for the next couple of hours
All :15 Manchester-Euston departures are calling additionaly at Macclesfield
185
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Think this must be a bit more than *just* (NRE's claim of) Cheadle Hulme - you'd assume Avanti, TfW and NT would divert via Styal - almost all of them sign it. Not a single train.
jonnyfan
Member
It seems to be the whole Manchester South signalling system has failed, so both routes from Stockport & Cheadle Hulme to Macclesfield and Crewe (also the Styal branch to Wilmslow) are affected, completely blocked via Wilmslow and Emergency Special Working via Bramhall to Macclesfield and onwards causing 40+ minute delays en route.
A major fault, that occurred last night, and Network Rail are no closer to fixing it than they were a couple of hours ago - very messy!
A major fault, that occurred last night, and Network Rail are no closer to fixing it than they were a couple of hours ago - very messy!
jonnyfan
Member
Simply put, it is used by the signaller to authorise a train through signals that are at danger due to a fault with the signalling system. It is a manual process of the driver speaking with the signaller, writing down their instructions and proceeding to a point past the affected area. The driver would then stop, contact the signaller to confirm they are past the affected section. There are speed restrictions to this method of work (50mph and 15mph when going over points) so can cause a lot of delay over a long section. Especially on a route like this one which is up to 125mph normally
Although, because the fault occurred last night they probably have set up Temporary Block Working - which is basically the same, but with a Handsignaller at the beginning and the end of the affected section - who will inform the drivers of the instructions they are to follow through the affected section.
Emergency Special Working is a temporary arrangement until they can get the Handsignallers in place, which can take a few hours
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Looks like up trains are stopped at EY1 25 signal on the Up Fast, then presumably authorised to proceed in due course .... maximum speed normally is 110 and that only as far as Cheadle Hulme, but, yes, it's a relatively high-speed line.
I remember in the "old days" the yellow stencil "100" sign used to be exactly at Edgeley Junction, but signal sighting rules (I think) caused it to be moved a bit further away from Stockport, to the location where it's now "110" and of course not a yellow stencil any more.
Looks like Adswood Road Junction is out of use also, meaning the slow lines between there and Edgeley Junction can't be used, but that's a relatively minor inconvenience.
EDIT- actually having the up slow out of use means that Platform 0 at Stockport can only be used for Hazel Grove line trains, which is a big improvement for services to Wilmslow not being moved to that annoying platform!
I remember in the "old days" the yellow stencil "100" sign used to be exactly at Edgeley Junction, but signal sighting rules (I think) caused it to be moved a bit further away from Stockport, to the location where it's now "110" and of course not a yellow stencil any more.
Looks like Adswood Road Junction is out of use also, meaning the slow lines between there and Edgeley Junction can't be used, but that's a relatively minor inconvenience.
EDIT- actually having the up slow out of use means that Platform 0 at Stockport can only be used for Hazel Grove line trains, which is a big improvement for services to Wilmslow not being moved to that annoying platform!
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markymark2000
Established Member
1 thing that I am curious of though is why couldn't it be sorted for the Northern service to extend from the Airport to Wilmslow. Now, I know there is signalling issues but this section is only served by Northern and as it's only 1 small section, signallers, drivers and Wilmslow station staff could surely have sorted it out for this 1 tph to continue. At Wilmslow, there are points available from platform 2 heading northbound to switch onto the Down Style Line. Could that point not be changed manually by the driver and then Wilmslow to Heald Green South junction then basically ran as drivers doing it themselves. I know it would mean some slight late running (or move the departure time to be a few mins earlier at Wilmslow to make up for it) and then kind of have a temporary token in place. Drivers swap the token at the airport.
Also, for the affected Macclesfield to Edgeley line, could you not set up a midpoint hand signaller around Poynton to try and get trains moving faster through the area (so trains are cleared from Edgeley to Poynton and then Poynton to Macclesfield. I know it won't make the actual train speed any higher but it will half the block lengths so hopefully more trains can pass through overall. Of course now you are waiting for trains to get quite a long section at 50mph. It seems trains are taking 50 mins to get from Edgeley to Macclesfield with many trains waiting at Edgeley or Stockport for 30 minutes (equating to the hour delay). If a midpoint hand signal was put in, you might then not need to have a 30 minute wait at Stockport so instead the overall delay is 30 minutes (which is the difference between scheduled and actual journey time from Edgeley to Macclesfield).
A driver would never be authorised to leave a cab change a point even at the instruction of a signaller.
markymark2000
Established Member
I thought drivers could change points as it's already done in some areas on secondary branch lines. As long as it's tokened and there is definitely no other train going to run down the line, it should be fine.
Looking at the Open Train Times map and cross referencing with Real Time Trains it looks to me like some freight movements are taking place via Wilmslow and the airport line. There is also a birth with A323 inscribed at Sandbach. Presumably a marooned 323 with nowhere to go.
markymark2000
Established Member
I've only seen a few go through all day going through looking at RTT. Presumably Network Rail and freight operators are in contact to ensure time critical containers get through and talking the train through is the only way go else there will be a lot more unhappy customers.
If signallers are able to control the points at Wilmslow, great, just token work it but I thought if they lost all the signalling, they also lost the points (unless it's a lever box but I don't think it is is it?)
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Has the driver been trained to manually change the points?
Has he got the right equipment?
Has he got a scotch and clamp?
Many signallers are no longer trained to manually operate points!
Halish Railway
Established Member
Just a quick question, seeing how this does seem like a major signalling failure, will it be sorted by Saturday? I ask as I intend to use the line from Piccadilly to Crewe to see the diverted XC services.
Also have any Euston to Piccadilly trains been diverted via Chat Moss today?
Also have any Euston to Piccadilly trains been diverted via Chat Moss today?
The signal box at Wilmslow was demolished a number of years ago (502jan12.jpg) (Wikipedia says April 2006), control is from Manchester South and this is the whole point of the disruption - the entire area controlled from MS seems to have gone. The much older signal boxes at Edgeley Junction are working fine, of course (within sight of the MS building). MS takes over control after Edgeley Junction Number 1 box, MS replaced Cheadle Hulme box and then the next box is Macclesfield (if taking the branch) or Crewe.
Presumably someone has clipped and locked (or whatever the correct terms are) the points to allow traffic onto/off the Styal line at Wilmslow such as freight trains. Similar action will have been needed at Sandbach, and potentially at other places en route such as Chelford and Alderley Edge with facing points if they can't be proved, which seems likely.
The signal box demolished in 2006 was commissioned in 1959, before which time point levers may well have been in use. Before my time!
Manchester South (MS) controls the signals from south of Styal station to Wilmslow, and it appears that the entirety of the area under MS control is affected.
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How does a driver change points?
How does a hand signal person notify others of the passage of trains? Securely.
markymark2000
Established Member
Yeah, I didn't think that they could control points here if the signals were down.
Changing points, it's done elsewhere on branch lines so there must be a way of drivers changing points.
In the same way it's done now at Edgeley and Macclesfield surely? Alternatively, mobile phone.
I think both Edgeley Junction Number 1 and Macclesfield boxes are working, it's the "MS" bit in-between them that isn't. So the points at Cheadle Hulme will also be clipped and locked, this time set for the branch.
Jamesrob637
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Is this fixed now? I am travelling again tomorrow.
markymark2000
Established Member
So Edgeley basically set a green signal then waits for a call off Macclesfield SB to confirm the train has got to Macc then Edgeley sends the next train through (of course the opposite applies for towards Manchester)?
From earlier in the thread, it was stated emergency measures were in place using drivers writing down signallers instructions while they awaited hand signallers. That is where I got that idea from.
No, it is still on going.
I read somewhere that there are over 40 sets of points that needed manually securing....sounds like a pretty big job whatever the cause is.
Not quite - EY1 can operate all its points, which cover the branch to Hazel Grove and various crossovers, and can therefore set the route in the up direction from EY1 24 to EY1 25 (and then to MS 4390). However the signals won't be green because if MS has "broken", EY1 25 will be permanently red. Drivers then wait for authority to pass EY1 25 at red. Following which they will take routes over a number of points and crossings which GB has already noted will need to have been secured manually, which will take them to Macclesfield. The first signal controlled by Macclesfield (MD 134), after Adlington and before Prestbury, will probably be green and the driver can then resume normal operation, having originally been instructed to proceed at appropriate caution at less than line speed until that point (jonnyfan says 50mph but 15mph over pointwork).
It's possible that not all the area under MS control is "broken", of course.
See https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/macclesfield#LINK_1 for the signal numbers I'm referring to.
Or some relatively recent pictures which include the internal track diagram at https://photos.signalling.org/picture?/6540/categories - the signal box was built in 1884 so it was getting on a bit when I started travelling past it regularly in 1973, it's still in use today. There are some older pictures in the album also which show the down goods line which used to run from Adswood Road Junction which was removed in the 1980s or so. There are different levers for points and for signals.
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There is a way for traincrew - not necessarily drivers, it is usually guards or travelling shunters - to change points on running lines, if a ground frame is provided and can be released into local control by the signaller, or if the line is single track and worked by staff or token, a key to the ground frame can be built into the token. But if there is no ground frame, which is the case for these and almost all other mainline junctions on safety grounds, and the lines are very far from single track, then no, drivers have no possible way of changing points. Basically, traincrew point working has to be designed into the signalling before an incident happens, and can't be instituted at a moments notice.
Signal Head
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**** is (in my experience) the result of a track circuit becoming occupied without a train description present in the berth in rear, so there is nothing to 'step'. It can (depending upon the system) also generate an NDA "Not Described Alarm".
I've just watched 1A62, already 69 minutes late leaving Piccadilly, wait for about 30 minutes at EY1 25. The train in front of it, 2K18 stopper to Stoke, was mid-way between Macclesfield and Congleton before 1A62 followed it, at which point 1A62 was 106 minutes late. So it's a painfully slow bottleneck. In the down direction, trains can leave Macclesfield but get held at Prestbury, Macclesfield's last signal (MD 101), for a similar period - in the case of 1H38 it only left Prestbury when the train it was following - 2H81 - was at Levenshulme. Clearly the necessary safeguards in allowing trains to pass signals at danger can't be rushed.
The next part of this post has nothing to do with the last part of the post, but the forum software merged two separate posts of mine into one:
The next part of this post has nothing to do with the last part of the post, but the forum software merged two separate posts of mine into one:
Manchester Evening News reporting TfGM saying there will be "an emergency timetable" tomorrow. https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-trains-disrupted-tomorrow-18953878
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