Crewe versus Stoke - who will win?

[HowardGWR]

There is a proposal from Stoke Council to send HS2 via Stoke. I have tried to see detail about the plans, but only find political and newspaper chat. Anyone have better information on this scheme?

 

[NotATrainspott]

There is a proposal from Stoke Council to send HS2 via Stoke. I have tried to see detail about the plans, but only find political and newspaper chat. Anyone have better information on this scheme?

I don't think there is any real specifics other than the Route Engineering Report for the western branch of HS2, which doesn't recommend a route through Stoke as any of the feasible options. A new high-speed branch wouldn't be economically justified for the time savings, especially if a new station weren't built in Stoke which would also increase costs dramatically. Sending the mainline through Stoke would involve even more expense with necessary tunnels or viaducts and there wouldn't be the passenger demand to justify stopping many trains an hour.

There are an awful lot of people who don't realise that the exact HS2 alignment, stations and other components weren't chosen arbitrarily by politicians. The plans at the moment more or less present the least-worst option overall since any changes would affect more people, increase the cost or increase the risk of construction and operation. The people whinging for the route to be forced along the M40 or other motorway corridors would be quickly replaced by even more people whinging about the extra cost or the extra impact on where people live. Cities like Liverpool or Stoke don't realise how they are going to benefit so much from HS2 without any real sacrifice on their part - no need for new lines being built and neighbourhoods demolished but they gain the capacity and speed benefits almost all the same. Investment and regeneration from HS2 isn't absolutely dependent on a city possessing four 425m GC-gauge platform faces, although it does help to some degree.

 

[Altnabreac]

There is a proposal from Stoke Council to send HS2 via Stoke. I have tried to see detail about the plans, but only find political and newspaper chat. Anyone have better information on this scheme?

If I were advising Stoke Council I'd be telling them to concentrate their efforts on lobbying for a service to continue using the Lichfield chord onto HS2 after phase 2 opens.

No service is currently planned but a Man Pic - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke - Birmingham Interchange - OOC - Euston service could perform pretty well. It could be formed from a half set CC and merge/split with a Preston or Liverpool service at Birmingham Interchange.

 

[MarkyT]

. . . a Man Pic - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke - Birmingham Interchange - OOC - Euston service could perform pretty well. It could be formed from a half set CC and merge/split with a Preston or Liverpool service at Birmingham Interchange.

Good idea, but the the other CC portion might alternatively go to Wolverhampton (via an additional connection through New Street), and possibly Stafford or even Shrewsbury if that was ever electrified. I think a Preston/Liverpool CC twin-set would be better if it ran non-stop OOC to Crewe for its split.

 

[Altnabreac]

Good idea, but the the other CC portion might alternatively go to Wolverhampton (via an additional connection through New Street), and possibly Stafford or even Shrewsbury if that was ever electrified. I think a Preston/Liverpool CC twin-set would be better if it ran non-stop OOC to Crewe for its split.

Another good plan. I think that would require some additional infrastructure as there is currently no connection for New St/Wolverhampton/Bristol trains except the depot connection at Washwood Heath which I presume is not properly grade separated?

You could split both Liverpools at Crewe with a Chester and a Preston service. Then extend these alternate hours to newly electrified Blackpool/Windermere/Holyhead and you're adding fast London services to 23+ stations without using an extra path:
Windermere, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Blackpool, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton le Fylde, Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Chester, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Shrewsbury, Telford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley and New St.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably better for Stoke not to be lobbying for something that requires extra infrastructure in Birmingham, as that makes it that much less likely to succeed and also that much more easy to dismiss as too difficult. A split with a Liverpool or Preston service sounds much more attainable.

 

[Altnabreac]

Probably better for Stoke not to be lobbying for something that requires extra infrastructure in Birmingham, as that makes it that much less likely to succeed and also that much more easy to dismiss as too difficult. A split with a Liverpool or Preston service sounds much more attainable.

Agreed. I'd advise Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Cheshire East and Staffordshire councils to support the first simple option but advise Cumbria, South Lakeland, Lancashire, City of Lancaster, Wyre, Fylde, Blackpool, Ynys Mon, Gwynedd, Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Cheshire West & Chester, Shropshire, Telford & Wrekin, Wolverhampton, Dudley and Sandwell to support the second option.

Politically a service giving 22 additional councils direct high speed services to London has got to be a winner!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No service is currently planned but a Man Pic - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke - Birmingham Interchange - OOC - Euston service could perform pretty well. It could be formed from a half set CC and merge/split with a Preston or Liverpool service at Birmingham Interchange.

Hey, steady on, no new-fangled rubbish must pass through our station at Prestbury...

I will be the first (if still alive by then) to man the 20 deep barricades of Porsches and Lamborghinis in the style of Les Miserables with the Bollinger to wet our throats.

 

[thenorthern]

It would be nice to have HS2 in Stoke-on-Trent as I think it would be great for the city's economy although it would be useful to have the station in the Hanley area if possible rather than the Stoke Town area.

With Virgin Trains choosing to run the majority of its Manchester trains via Stoke rather than Crewe and CrossCountry choosing to do the same with virtually all its trains I don't see why HS2 can't do the same.

 

[HowardGWR]

Agreed. I'd advise Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Cheshire East and Staffordshire councils to support the first simple option but advise Cumbria, South Lakeland, Lancashire, City of Lancaster, Wyre, Fylde, Blackpool, Ynys Mon, Gwynedd, Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Cheshire West & Chester, Shropshire, Telford & Wrekin, Wolverhampton, Dudley and Sandwell to support the second option.

Politically a service giving 22 additional councils direct high speed services to London has got to be a winner!

Your two postings sent my head spinning. I have never heard of some of the places. I thought it was supposed to be *high speed* rail between major cities, not farmyards.

I like the idea of Mark and Edwin (to start with). No doubt the thorny question of links to and through New St will eventually be tackled, as I think this really is a no-brainer.

 

[Altnabreac]

Your two postings sent my head spinning. I have never heard of some of the places. I thought it was supposed to be *high speed* rail between major cities, not farmyards.

I like the idea of Mark and Edwin (to start with). No doubt the thorny question of links to and through New St will eventually be tackled, as I think this really is a no-brainer.

I've not proposed a through service to Altnabreac... yet

In all seriousness though a high speed service should run fast on the fast bit but no reason for it not to connect to smaller stations once it leaves the high speed line. The Preston service is just begging to be extended alternately to Lancaster and Blackpool for example.

HS2 need to realise to get MPs and councils on side you need to start proposing services to their areas...

 

[Allitnil]

There is a proposal from Stoke Council to send HS2 via Stoke. I have tried to see detail about the plans, but only find political and newspaper chat. Anyone have better information on this scheme?

Here's the report to the Stoke City Council http://www.moderngov.stoke.gov.uk/mgconvert2pdf.aspx?id=59113

As I read it they want to take the current HS2 alignment to Stone and then connect to the existing WCML through Stoke and then on to Manchester. The Stoke to Manchester WCML would be upgraded to 230kph. No dedicated HS2 line at all north of Stone.

Looks to me like the idea would be better for Stoke but worse for everyone else! It's basically just phase 1 with an extra 20 miles of track to move the WCML connection from Lichfield to Stone. It's cheaper but only because they are hardly doing anything to meet the issues that HS2 is designed to solve...

I assume that if the idea were to be taken forward by HS2 then there would need to be another full round of consultation as it would impact on many communities.

 

[HowardGWR]

Here's the report to the Stoke City Council http://www.moderngov.stoke.gov.uk/mgconvert2pdf.aspx?id=59113

As I read it they want to take the current HS2 alignment to Stone and then connect to the existing WCML through Stoke and then on to Manchester. The Stoke to Manchester WCML would be upgraded to 230kph. No dedicated HS2 line at all north of Stone.

Looks to me like the idea would be better for Stoke but worse for everyone else! It's basically just phase 1 with an extra 20 miles of track to move the WCML connection from Lichfield to Stone. It's cheaper but only because they are hardly doing anything to meet the issues that HS2 is designed to solve...

I assume that if the idea were to be taken forward by HS2 then there would need to be another full round of consultation as it would impact on many communities.

Thanks very much. I note that the proposed HS2 station is apparently to be further away from Handley than a previous correspondent thought to be desirable. The daft siting of the bus station may have something to do with this viewpoint. However, assuming they have found the ability to incorporate an extra two HS lines through Stoke to Manchester (?) the chief weakness appears to be the proposed deletion of the HS line through Crewe and further.

I cannot see that proposal causing more than wry laughter at DfT.

I have to say that scanning the views of the Stoke area, it is a most depressing sight. I used to live not far away and things actually seem to have got worse since then (1977), environmentally speaking, with a great spaghetti of roads threading through an industrial wilderness and the forlorn Handley shopping area stuck up there on the hill. Perhaps someone local could disabuse me of those impressions.

 

[Morgsie]

I live somewhere between Crewe and Stoke where my local authority is opposed to HS2.

It was me who raised Stoke's plans in the main thread. Stoke Council met this week and the papers are here under Reports.

Everything is Hanley focussed Howard and Stoke Council wants to relocate to Hanley

 

[tbtc]

Here's the report to the Stoke City Council http://www.moderngov.stoke.gov.uk/mgconvert2pdf.aspx?id=59113

As I read it they want to take the current HS2 alignment to Stone and then connect to the existing WCML through Stoke and then on to Manchester. The Stoke to Manchester WCML would be upgraded to 230kph. No dedicated HS2 line at all north of Stone.

Looks to me like the idea would be better for Stoke but worse for everyone else! It's basically just phase 1 with an extra 20 miles of track to move the WCML connection from Lichfield to Stone. It's cheaper but only because they are hardly doing anything to meet the issues that HS2 is designed to solve...

I assume that if the idea were to be taken forward by HS2 then there would need to be another full round of consultation as it would impact on many communities.

Agreed.

Since every "fantasy" proposal on here has a title like "My Proposal For...", maybe we should have "Local Council/MP's Proposal For Better Services In Their Local Area (Even If It Disadvantages Everyone Else"?

I suppose we'll see a lot of this kind of "sabre rattling" from councils (etc) over the next few years, trying to get some kind of concessions from Central Government...

...we all know there are billions of pounds in "contingency" so can we make enough fuss about not having a station in our backyard to see if we can persuade Westminster to spend a few quid in our area?

(I expect Sheffield to try to get London to pay for an upgraded electrified link from Meadowhall to Dore - poss TramTrain - for example - I'm not singling Stoke out particularly)

However, 400m HS2 services up the single track Windermere branch seem unlikely.

 

[Altnabreac]

Agreed.

Since every "fantasy" proposal on here has a title like "My Proposal For...", maybe we should have "Local Council/MP's Proposal For Better Services In Their Local Area (Even If It Disadvantages Everyone Else"?

I suppose we'll see a lot of this kind of "sabre rattling" from councils (etc) over the next few years, trying to get some kind of concessions from Central Government...

...we all know there are billions of pounds in "contingency" so can we make enough fuss about not having a station in our backyard to see if we can persuade Westminster to spend a few quid in our area?

(I expect Sheffield to try to get London to pay for an upgraded electrified link from Meadowhall to Dore - poss TramTrain - for example - I'm not singling Stoke out particularly)

However, 400m HS2 services up the single track Windermere branch seem unlikely.

Don't be silly, I was proposing a 200m half unit for Windemere. It's coming maybe...

 

[HowardGWR]

I live somewhere between Crewe and Stoke where my local authority is opposed to HS2.

It was me who raised Stoke's plans in the main thread. Stoke Council met this week and the papers are here under Reports.

Everything is Hanley focussed Howard and Stoke Council wants to relocate to Hanley

What do you think of their proposal?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Everything is Hanley focused Howard and Stoke Council wants to relocate to Hanley

I can just see them proposing the reopening of the Potteries Loop Line and especially Hanley station as its major station, as part and parcel of this aspiration ...

 

[Snapper]

Who will win? Not Stoke.

They came late to the party. When they finally came up with a response it was obvious they hadn't talked to their neighbours & made more enemies than friends. Their ideas are so light on detail its clear they've had no technical expert advice.

Frankly, it's a shambles.

 

[thenorthern]

Hopefully Stoke does get it which would mean hopefully Stoke-on-Trent station will have more than the congested 2 through platforms it currently has.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Am I right in thinking that Stoke-on-Trent railway station is a Grade II* listed building and that may pose some problems with certain aspirations.

 

[thenorthern]

Am I right in thinking that Stoke-on-Trent railway station is a Grade II* listed building and that may pose some problems with certain aspirations.

I think it is Grade II* listed though I don't think it should cause too many problems adding another platform at the back of it if they don't touch the current building.

 

[The Planner]

Stoke has no chance, you may even find that they try to get to Crewe as soon as they can in phase 1 or just after it to remove the Colwich problem.

 

[HSTEd]

However, 400m HS2 services up the single track Windermere branch seem unlikely.

You've been looking at my Plans again.
Thats the only way you could know about the Lake District Shinkansen.

 

[edwin_m]

Am I right in thinking that Stoke-on-Trent railway station is a Grade II* listed building and that may pose some problems with certain aspirations.

I don't know about the listing but if anything went through at any remotely high speed it would blow the glass out of the roof.

 

[MarkyT]

Returning to the subject of an extra classic network connection in the Birmingham area, to allow London classic services to Wolverhampton (the other half of the Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport CC trains as I suggested earlier) and use of HS2 phase 2 by Cross Country services to the west to some extent as suggested by HowardGWR, the recent decision to tunnel between Castle Bromwich and Washwood Heath under Bromford could offer a cost effective grade separated junction arrangement, with the connection from the southernmost HS2 track weaving across the top of the new portal at the Castle Bromwich end of the tunnel.

 

[dysonsphere]

I can just see them proposing the reopening of the Potteries Loop Line and especially Hanley station as its major station, as part and parcel of this aspiration ...

The loop line should never have been closed but the curves through Hanley station were too tight for Mk 1 stock and for most of its life tender locos were banned. running HS2 through Stoke is a no hoper were would put it, Stoke station is very inconvient for most of the area but that is due do goegraphy of the local area. Thats why the loop line was built to conect Hanley etc do the main line.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Has anyone seen the artists impression of what a Stoke on Trent station would look like? Best description was from one poster on the Stoke Sentinal website who described it as "a face with the weight of the world on it's shoulders"

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Stat...rder-control/story-20547749-detail/story.html

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks very much. I note that the proposed HS2 station is apparently to be further away from Handley than a previous correspondent thought to be desirable. The daft siting of the bus station may have something to do with this viewpoint. However, assuming they have found the ability to incorporate an extra two HS lines through Stoke to Manchester (?) the chief weakness appears to be the proposed deletion of the HS line through Crewe and further.

I cannot see that proposal causing more than wry laughter at DfT.

I have to say that scanning the views of the Stoke area, it is a most depressing sight. I used to live not far away and things actually seem to have got worse since then (1977), environmentally speaking, with a great spaghetti of roads threading through an industrial wilderness and the forlorn Handley shopping area stuck up there on the hill. Perhaps someone local could disabuse me of those impressions.

Hi, I am local and, however hard I try, I cannot disabuse you of your very accurate observations.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In the very long term I can see HS2 being paralleled first by a dedicated freight line, built at least to Betuweroute standard, then another HSR line which would pick up the demand coming as a result of population growth and the post-HS2 WCML filling up yet again. It would probably go via the stations many of the antis whinged that HS2 didn't serve such as Milton Keynes, Coventry and Stoke. The best option for the people of Stoke is to use their post-HS2 services as much as physically possible so that such an extra line will be required as early as possible. If we're not going to build more motorways or airports, what else are we going to invest in?