Criminal record??

[Fool12]

Hello all,
I was prosecuted by TFL last December, it was a bye law offence 17(1).
I paid the fine given by court.
Now my question is, I know this is a criminal conviction, but do I have a criminal record??? I read here that it’s a non recordable offence.
But on the TfL website, it says if prosecuted you get a criminal record and a fine upto 1000£.
Please kindly help me with this.

 

[pedr]

The precise wording of the question you are being asked in any circumstance matters.

A non-recordable offence won’t (or at least shouldn’t) show up on a check of any records. But it is a conviction for a criminal offence. If you want to answer a question about criminal convictions you have to consider the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, which should be referred to by the person asking you the question. Where the act applies you can treat a conviction that led to a fine (only) as not having happened 12 months after the date of the conviction.

There are arguments and suggestions that non-recordable offences are automatically “spent”, but I’m not convinced by that. Organisations such as Unlock (https://unlock.org.uk/) may be able to help further.

 

[Fool12]

Thank you for the reply,
I understand what you’re saying about the records and rehabilitation of offenders act, but what am unable to understand is
I have a criminal record but not recorded on the PNC, is that right??

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for the reply,
I understand what you’re saying about the records and rehabilitation of offenders act, but what am unable to understand is
I have a criminal record but not recorded on the PNC, is that right??

Essentially, yes.

It will only come to light if you apply for very specific visas or undergo something which requires Enhanced DBS (even then it will not normally be disclosed unless compellingly relevant), or Developed Vetting.

 

[Fool12]

Will a conviction go on my criminal record?
If you plead guilty or the court finds you guilty, you acquire a criminal conviction.
I read this on TFL frequently asked questions page,
Now what does this mean, if pleading guilty gives you a criminal conviction??? Is this same as a criminal record???
Sorry but I am going to apply visa in a few days, very tensed at the moment.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fare-evasion-prosecution.pdf

 

[UserM]

@Fool12 Unfortunately no one unless they are a qualified immigration advisor is permitted to offer and advice relating to visas or immigration matters in this country.

So unfortunately your best next step, unless others have much to add, will be to contact such an immigration advisor who will be able to help.

Try using the government website to search.

Find an immigration adviser

Search for someone to help you with advice and applications to stay in the UK - free and paid-for services, adviser levels 1, 2, 3 and complaints.

www.gov.uk

 

[Haywain]

Will a conviction go on my criminal record?
If you plead guilty or the court finds you guilty, you acquire a criminal conviction.
I read this on TFL frequently asked questions page,
Now what does this mean, if pleading guilty gives you a criminal conviction??? Is this same as a criminal record???
Sorry but I am going to apply visa in a few days, very tensed at the moment.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fare-evasion-prosecution.pdf

A guilty plea will result in a guilty verdict and, therefore, conviction. A criminal record will result although some offences result in the conviction being spent immediately.

 

[pedr]

A qualified immigration advisor will know the right questions to ask you based on the precise details of the application you are making. There isn’t a single straightforward answer to what you’re asking in this thread, so you need to obtain professional advice.

 

[some bloke]

People use the term "criminal record" to mean different things, so you may get different answers to the question "do I have a criminal record?" depending on what they think the words mean. Sometimes it may not be clear what a company or government department is referring to, and it may be necessary to ask what they mean.

I think TfL risk misleading at least some people in saying "If convicted, you will: Get a criminal record"
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/prosecutions
because some convictions such as yours are "non-recordable". These convictions should not, or should not normally, be recorded on the "Police National Computer" unless the person is convicted for a recordable offence at the same time.

This may help explain:

https://unlock.org.uk/advice/recordable-offences-2/

And yes, if you are talking about a visa for the UK, advice on immigration needs to be from a qualified/authorised adviser.

 

[Fool12]

@some bloke thank you for your reply, I already been to website you’ve been referring, as you said TfL is misleading by saying on the website, if prosecuted you get criminal record.
I read general ground for refusal on criminality so I wanted to know what my position is with the offence, (conviction or record).
And I will contact immigration advisor.
Thank you all for your time.
I love this forum, been to one immigration forum no one’s replied in like 4 days.

 

[AlterEgo]

As @some_bloke says there is no generally accepted definition of “criminal record”. Some people on this forum prefer to explain that the offence is not recorded on the Police National Computer which means it’s “not recorded”. The PNC is used in fairly specific situations, including safeguarding checks or if the police need to find information out about you.

In reality all convictions in court are recorded and are findable by searching court records. Your bylaw conviction does mean, for all intents and purposes, you have a “criminal record”, that is, a record, somewhere, you were convicted of a criminal offence.

Good luck with the immigration advice and I hope it works out in your favour.

 

[Fool12]

@AlterEgo as you said all convictions in court are record, and in the papers of single justice notice, it said it’s going to recorded at the court, if found guilty or pleaded guilty.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fare-evasion-prosecution.pdf

And here it’s says it’s not a criminal record but a criminal conviction, doesn’t it mean that only conviction is recorded at the court and not a criminal record.
Thank you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

@AlterEgo as you said all convictions in court are record, and in the papers of single justice notice, it said it’s going to recorded at the court, if found guilty or pleaded guilty.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fare-evasion-prosecution.pdf

And here it’s says it’s not a criminal record but a criminal conviction, doesn’t it mean that only conviction is recorded at the court and not a criminal record.
Thank you.

It all comes down to @AlterEgo 's first sentence:

As @some_bloke says there is no generally accepted definition of “criminal record

Not everyone means exactly the same thing by 'criminal record'. So yes, any conviction is recorded at the court which made it, and anyone interested enough could go round every court in the country to find out if you have a conviction: in that sense every criminal conviction forms part of a criminal record. But byelaw convictions are not sent routinely to the DBS so don't show up on their reports: in this sense a byelaw conviction doesn't form part of a criminal record.

Your immediate concern is about your visa and immigration status; as various people have said, we're not allowed to comment on such matters. But I think you would be well-advised to find a qualified immigration adviser: not only will they be allowed to discuss this point with you, but they will probably be able to answer the question of whether you need to mention the byelaw conviction.

 

[Fool12]

@Fawkes Cat thank you.