Crossrail 1 and 2 route choices

[Fazaar1889]

Why does the Elizabeth line extend all the way to Reading? Also why doesn't it go further into the southeast until, say, Temple hill Dartford?
If the Elizabeth line goes so far west out of London, why doesn't Crossrail 2 go deeper into Surrey?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Crossrail 1 began as a largely BR scheme, but morphed over the years into a joint scheme with TfL, who essentially took over the project when construction started.
Various western terminals were considered, including Aylesbury and Milton Keynes, before they settled on Maidenhead and Heathrow (Reading was an extra added when the GW main line was electrified).
Reading is also a very convenient operational centre and a better interchange than Maidenhead.
The government insisted on Heathrow and Canary Wharf (ie Abbey Wood) legs in the east, making it a cross-river network towards Kent.
That was before Brexit and the exodus of many financial services companies from Canary Wharf.

Crossrail 2 is more of a TfL capacity-busting project, with a leg onto the SW network to relieve Waterloo.
It's also a long way off, time for the whole route to be re-examined as the economy and commuting patterns change.
Financially it will have to follow HS2, and who knows where that will lead.

 

[Broucek]

That was before Brexit and the exodus of many financial services companies from Canary Wharf

Huh?

There's been an exodus but primarily related to working at home...

 

[MotCO]

To add to the OP's question, if one of the aims is to relieve Waterloo, surely you will need some journeys to start further out, such as Surbiton or Woking. Commuters will not voluntarily change trains, for example a Woking to the City journey will still be SWT and change at Waterloo for the Waterloo & City line, rather than SWT to Wimbledon and change onto CR2.

 

[swt_passenger]

To add to the OP's question, if one of the aims is to relieve Waterloo, surely you will need some journeys to start further out, such as Surbiton or Woking. Commuters will not voluntarily change trains, for example a Woking to the City journey will still be SWT and change at Waterloo for the Waterloo & City line, rather than SWT to Wimbledon and change onto CR2.

The plan was definitely not to go as far as Woking, but to take over the majority of the branch services that run via Raynes Park or New Malden, and the Hampton Court branch. By use of 6 tracking from New Malden to Wimbledon they’d remove many of those services from the SWML slow lines.

So this would mean the few outer area stopping services through Woking in the peaks, (6 or 7 tph), that currently run on the fast lines between Surbiton and Waterloo, would be able to stay on the slows all the way to Waterloo. That would allow for more long distance services on the fast lines to take their place inbound from Surbiton.

I expect there’s probably now a review going on to determine if any of those extra long distance trains are actually needed.

 

[MotCO]

The plan was definitely not to go as far as Woking, but to take over the majority of the branch services that run via Raynes Park or New Malden, and the Hampton Court branch. By use of 6 tracking from New Malden to Wimbledon they’d remove many of those services from the SWML slow lines.

So this would mean the few outer area stopping services through Woking in the peaks, (6 or 7 tph), that currently run on the fast lines between Surbiton and Waterloo, would be able to stay on the slows all the way to Waterloo. That would allow for more long distance services on the fast lines to take their place inbound from Surbiton.

I expect there’s probably now a review going on to determine if any of those extra long distance trains are actually needed.

So a bit like the Southeastern timetable change when some north Kent towns lost their direct route to Charing Cross, local services through New Malden and Raynes Park would lose their direct link with Waterloo. The Southeastern timetable change resulted in crowds at London Bridge trying to change trains, and some services are being reintroduced.

Commuters make their choice of home and jobs based on how easy it is to commute; changing the playing field won't please lots of people.

 

[PGAT]

Wouldn’t they have to remodel Epsom so that XR2 trains don’t conflict with the Southern services?

 

[swt_passenger]

So a bit like the Southeastern timetable change when some north Kent towns lost their direct route to Charing Cross, local services through New Malden and Raynes Park would lose their direct link with Waterloo. The Southeastern timetable change resulted in crowds at London Bridge trying to change trains, and some services are being reintroduced.

Commuters make their choice of home and jobs based on how easy it is to commute; changing the playing field won't please lots of people.

I think the difference is it wouldn’t be all services at Raynes Park and New Malden that would be diverted. The semifasts to Waterloo that would be moved back onto the slows would now be able to stop at more stations, including Wimbledon, and you’d possibly still have cross platform interchange at Raynes Park.

 

[brad465]

Why does the Elizabeth line extend all the way to Reading? Also why doesn't it go further into the southeast until, say, Temple hill?
If the Elizabeth line goes so far west out of London, why doesn't Crossrail 2 go deeper into Surrey?

What Temple Hill are you referring to? There's no station for the part of Dartford with that name, and no other station/area with that name in the southeast comes to mind.

 

[zwk500]

Why does the Elizabeth line extend all the way to Reading? Also why doesn't it go further into the southeast until, say, Temple hill?

Elizabeth line is protected to Dartford, AIUI, and they looked at several alternative layouts for the Abbey Wood area that would have allowed seamless extension (issues at Slade Green and Crayford notwithstanding) but the addition of Plumstead sidings into the plan and a desire to protect performance saw the plan go the way it did.

If the Elizabeth line goes so far west out of London, why doesn't Crossrail 2 go deeper into Surrey?

Crossrail 2 isn't fixed yet, by any means.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Crossrail 1 began as a largely BR scheme, but morphed over the years into a joint scheme with TfL, who essentially took over the project when construction started.
Various western terminals were considered, including Aylesbury and Milton Keynes, before they settled on Maidenhead and Heathrow (Reading was an extra added when the GW main line was electrified).
Reading is also a very convenient operational centre and a better interchange than Maidenhead.
The government insisted on Heathrow and Canary Wharf (ie Abbey Wood) legs in the east, making it a cross-river network towards Kent.
That was before Brexit and the exodus of many financial services companies from Canary Wharf.

Crossrail 2 is more of a TfL capacity-busting project, with a leg onto the SW network to relieve Waterloo.
It's also a long way off, time for the whole route to be re-examined as the economy and commuting patterns change.
Financially it will have to follow HS2, and who knows where that will lead.

Interesting thanks!

Elizabeth line is protected to Dartford, AIUI, and they looked at several alternative layouts for the Abbey Wood area that would have allowed seamless extension (issues at Slade Green and Crayford notwithstanding) but the addition of Plumstead sidings into the plan and a desire to protect performance saw the plan go the way it did.

Crossrail 2 isn't fixed yet, by any means.

Ah right

What Temple Hill are you referring to? There's no station for the part of Dartford with that name, and no other station/area with that name in the southeast comes to mind.

What Temple Hill are you referring to? There's no station for the part of Dartford with that name, and no other station/area with that name in the southeast comes to mind.

ah wait google maps confused me, I think its Dartford station. the name temple hill was right next to it.

 

[zwk500]

ah wait google maps confused me, I think its Dartford station. the name temple hill was right next to it.

That is indeed Dartford station. As I mentioned, I believe the long term strategy does protect the idea of Crossrail trains getting that far but it won't happen for a long time yet.

 

[Fazaar1889]

The plan was definitely not to go as far as Woking, but to take over the majority of the branch services that run via Raynes Park or New Malden, and the Hampton Court branch. By use of 6 tracking from New Malden to Wimbledon they’d remove many of those services from the SWML slow lines.

So this would mean the few outer area stopping services through Woking in the peaks, (6 or 7 tph), that currently run on the fast lines between Surbiton and Waterloo, would be able to stay on the slows all the way to Waterloo. That would allow for more long distance services on the fast lines to take their place inbound from Surbiton.

I expect there’s probably now a review going on to determine if any of those extra long distance trains are actually needed.

Does that basically mean that more fast trains to Waterloo can happen on the SWML/PDL? cos XR2 takes away some of the trains from Epsom/Hampton/Surbiton/Chessington?

 

[zwk500]

Does that basically mean that more fast trains to Waterloo can happen on the SWML/PDL? cos XR2 takes away some of the trains from Epsom/Hampton/Surbiton/Chessington?

Yes, that's one of the key parts of the project, freeing up space for longer distance trains into Waterloo

 

[Fazaar1889]

Yes, that's one of the key parts of the project, freeing up space for longer distance trains into Waterloo

Ah thanks. Similar principle to HS2. More capacity innit

 

[PTR 444]

I expect there’s probably now a review going on to determine if any of those extra long distance trains are actually needed.

Long distance travel has recovered much faster than commuting on the SWML. Considering the demand for travel to/from the South Coast, I think there is a case for making London - Weymouth trains fast to Winchester/Southampton and flighting slightly slower Poole terminators (calling at Clapham Junction, Woking and/or Basingstoke) behind them. Crossrail 2 and a Woking Flyover would help to make this ambition a reality.

 

[zwk500]

Long distance travel has recovered much faster than commuting on the SWML. Considering the demand for travel to/from the South Coast, I think there is a case for making London - Weymouth trains fast to Winchester/Southampton and flighting slightly slower Poole terminators (calling at Clapham Junction, Woking and/or Basingstoke) behind them. Crossrail 2 and a Woking Flyover would help to make this ambition a reality.

I really can't see a Woking Flyover for a generation. It gets looked at about every 10 years or so, and the reality is that on it's own it doesn't do much and it needs lots of other projects as part of a programme but that makes the whole thing unaffordable and it gets stuck in Treasury purgatory.
It will take either a vast financial boom, or a complete overhaul of how the Treasury operate to get Woking Flyover built.

 

[Bald Rick]

I really can't see a Woking Flyover for a generation. It gets looked at about every 10 years or so, and the reality is that on it's own it doesn't do much and it needs lots of other projects as part of a programme but that makes the whole thing unaffordable and it gets stuck in Treasury purgatory.
It will take either a vast financial boom, or a complete overhaul of how the Treasury operate to get Woking Flyover built.

We got very close to getting it into design in 2018-19.

unlikely now though.

 

[zwk500]

We got very close to getting it into design in 2018-19.

I know, I think I might even have had sight of some of the feasibility work. It certainly got mentioned when there was a bridge renewal/replacement planned just country side of Woking station I was very briefly involved in around 2020/21. I definitely remember a study being referred to that had basically said that any time saved at Woking on the Up would be put back in as pathing by Wimbledon.

unlikely now though.

Indeed.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Wasn't Crossrail only meant to go as far out as Slough at one point in the 2000s?

The success of the Elizabeth Line and the NLE, in my opinion, shows that London still wants and needs new rail infrastructure, and so building Crossrail 2 still seems like a worthwhile idea.

 

[zwk500]

Wasn't Crossrail only meant to go as far out as Slough at one point in the 2000s?

It changed many times, I think the firm idea that got authorised was to terminate everything at Maidenhead but then it later got extended to Reading.

The success of the Elizabeth Line and the NLE, in my opinion, shows that London still wants and needs new rail infrastructure, and so building Crossrail 2 still sees like a worthwhile idea.

Worthwhile yes, but pricey. Given how Crossrail's budget went, I don't imagine the Treasury of TfL are overly keen to embark on another project quite so soon.