Dealing with awkward passengers when working as a TM/conductor

[si_145653]

As I am looking to get into the role of TM/conductor I was wondering how current TM/conductors dealt with issues onboard from awkward people.

Some of the things I have seen clips online thats difficult for one person to deal with include:

1. People intentionally trying to get a free service and not producing a ticket when asked and taunting staff whilst recording them on a video
2. Groups of football fans clashing with each other and disturbing other passengers with extremely “colourful” language
3. Groups of people giving another passenger abuse: racist & homophobic comments.
4. Those who have had too many to drink and disturbing other passengers (some of which record the drunk passenger which escalates things)

I know some may reply to say the British Transport police however I don’t see any presence of them in my area (Devon and Cornwall) and that’s not an option on a moving train.

Am also interested to hear of incidents others have had to deal with.

 

[iwasyoungonce]

Your company will have very robust and well publicised travel policies and codes of conduct on board.

Only you know how you would deal with those situations as an individual, If you don't deal with these sorts of occurrences well maybe its not the job for you !

 

[D6130]

When I was a guard on the Southern Region back in the mid-1980s, if I had a passenger without a ticket who refused point-blank to pay, I would announce loudly to the rest of the carriage words to the effect of: "Well, my friend, all these good people have paid their fares and they're not going to be very pleased to be subsidising people like you. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop the train at the next station and the await the arrival of the BT Police which - at this time of night - could take an hour or two. I know that these fare-paying passengers have homes to go to, or connections to make....but I shall be paid overtime, so I'm in no hurry!" The resulting stares, murmurings and often outright threats from the other passengers usually did the trick. Applied psychology!

 

[transportphoto]

1. People intentionally trying to get a free service and not producing a ticket when asked and taunting staff whilst recording them on a video
2. Groups of football fans clashing with each other and disturbing other passengers with extremely “colourful” language
3. Groups of people giving another passenger abuse: racist & homophobic comments.
4. Those who have had too many to drink and disturbing other passengers (some of which record the drunk passenger which escalates things)

Ultimately the conductor will make the decision to walk away and call for Police if need be. I very much doubt many train companies would encourage their staff to enter into conflict, if they get hurt or similar then they’ll be off work for weeks which has the greater overall cost. Dealing with conflict etc. will be covered in initial training courses.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Ultimately the conductor will make the decision to walk away and call for Police if need be. I very much doubt many train companies would encourage their staff to enter into conflict, if they get hurt or similar then they’ll be off work for weeks which has the greater overall cost. Dealing with conflict etc. will be covered in initial training courses.

Enter into conflict, no. However, conflict management is commonly taught and therefore used to prevent incidents such as these escalating to anything serious more often than not. BTP are available for times when it does, and being on a moving train can sometimes be a blessing as you can arrange for them to meet you at the next stop knowing any perpetrators cannot leave the train beforehand.

 

[Jon1930]

Walk away to the back cab is the best thing to do.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Walk away to the back cab is the best thing to do.

Not always, there is a duty of care to all passengers. Calming down or removing an individual or group is far better than not dealing with it and it escalating.

If you deem the threat to be putting yourself in danger then absolutely, cab is the safest place. I've worked with many train crew who couldn't or didn't handle situations well and ended up being physically attacked. Personally, I've never had a situation that I haven't been able to calm down and that includes drunks with smashed bottles/verbally aggressive people.

 

[L401CJF]

Its not really something you can train for as every situation is different and needs weighing up at the time. The best course of action for one situation may not be the worst course of action for another.

Companies provide guidance for dealing with conflict etc but really is something only you can decide for yourself based on what you feel is best. Nothing is worth getting assaulted over, so if it means hiding in the cab and waiting for police assistance so be it. Other situations can be easily difused by your own actions - really depends on a number of factors!

 

[Signal_Box]

Your line manager, and control will not thank you for causing delay to the train or getting yourself assaulted which has a negative impact on the lost time due to sickness budget aka their bonus !

Your not paid enough to be assaulted, walk away call the people who’s job it is - if their the usual 4hrs away then so be it control will advise what they want you to do more often than not, do not delay the train unless it a critical situation.

I’ve known control want to off load medically unwell passengers vice waiting for a Ambo. All the TOCs want it minimal delay and as little lost staff time as possible, losing a few quid to a fare isn’t high on their priority list.

Never shame the person with PA announcements it’ll only go one way, you being assaulted or some do gooder taking to Twitter and you being the wrong one.

 

[43066]

Your not paid enough to be assaulted, walk away call the people who’s job it is - if their the usual 4hrs away then so be it control will advise what they want you to do more often than not, do not delay the train unless it a critical situation.

I’m not a TM, but there’s a *lot* of truth in this. Most TMs I work with remark on how it is often the same people who get assaulted over and over, usually due to being confrontational or not reading situations properly. Sadly they also all comment that behaviour has got a lot worse since the Covid pandemic. We can speculate as to why, but it’s a noticeable trend.

Of course there is always a risk you’ll come across someone who is completely unmanageable, often due to drink/drugs/mental illness, but attitude goes a long way in defusing situations (and retreat is the next best option of course).

Training is provided but can only go so far. Dealing with the full range of the public, including some unpleasant, awkward and (occasionally) downright dangerous passengers, is clearly part of the job and something to carefully consider whether you’re temperamentally suited to. I for one wouldn’t be able do that job!

 

[Sly Sloth]

Golden rules…….
if you delay a train for 3 minutes for a £3 fare your company will be fined through delay attribution at around £50 per minute!
You’ve cost them £150
if you get assaulted and take a week off work you’ll be unproductive and could mean rest day workers to cover your job!
Youve cost them £700 (based on £20 an hour, 35 hour week)
If somebody is racially/homophobic abuse THEY need to contact the police. They’d do it if it happened in the street, not you!
Football supporters are either….drunk but we’ll behaved or so out of control there’s nothing you as a single person can do to control it….phone control and get them to decide the best course of action be that police or whatever. Tell them you’ll be safe on the back cab.
Drunk people….follow above guidance.
but don’t worry about any of it because if you do you’ll hate your career

 

[Ashley Hill]

taunting staff whilst recording them on a video

I was given this advice by an International lawyer about being filmed,have a Mona Lisa smile. She had been verbally abused in 1st class by a drunk. When removed he waved his phone camera about threatening to put it on Facebook.
1 If your filmed laughing or with a smug grin it could be construed as taking the mickey or gloating.
2 If you look angry,pointing or shouting you will appear on film as being aggressive.
3 If you cover your face it could mean you have something to hide.
4 A Mona Lisa smile is seen as friendly and non threatening and will come across as such on film.

 

[Lmc1976]

I read this thread with interest as I am due to start conductor training next month. My current job involves conflict and confrontation on an almost daily basis so I would like to think I have the skills to manage most situations.
I would also like to think that the vast majority of the paying public are honest law abiding people who just want to get from A to B safely and on time! Would I be right in assuming this and that mad/bad people I may come across would be the exception rather than the rule?!

 

[yorkie]

I read this thread with interest as I am due to start conductor training next month. My current job involves conflict and confrontation on an almost daily basis so I would like to think I have the skills to manage most situations.
I would also like to think that the vast majority of the paying public are honest law abiding people who just want to get from A to B safely and on time! Would I be right in assuming this and that mad/bad people I may come across would be the exception rather than the rule?!

Very much so.

 

[Ashley Hill]

TBH it doesn’t happen everyday and is often when you least expect it. I’ve worked many late night trains full of various drunks,hen nights and football fans and have had a whale of a time. On the other hand I’ve worked trains on early turn expecting an easy trip and some scrote goes and ruins it for the sake of a few pounds fare.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I read this thread with interest as I am due to start conductor training next month. My current job involves conflict and confrontation on an almost daily basis so I would like to think I have the skills to manage most situations.
I would also like to think that the vast majority of the paying public are honest law abiding people who just want to get from A to B safely and on time! Would I be right in assuming this and that mad/bad people I may come across would be the exception rather than the rule?!

Absolutely, the minority can ruin your day. You do need thick skin, and the ability to let the do go when you click off is very useful too

 

[the sniper]

There's no one size fits all answer. Do what you can to keep the peace. Play it cool. Don't get wound up, you'll play into their hands.

 

[Horizon22]

There's no one size fits all answer. Do what you can to keep the peace. Play it cool. Don't get wound up, you'll play into their hands.

Very true. Some people you can approach and others are best to stay clear and, if possible, remove other passengers from the situation. Taking into account the things the OP mentioned some actions I might / have taken:

1. People intentionally trying to get a free service and not producing a ticket when asked and taunting staff whilst recording them on a video

If the person was going to be persistent, remain professional and go through the process of penalty fares, unpaid fare notice etc. Don't engage with the video at all, try to remain calm. If it gets aggressive, walk away and report the incident. They're looking for a reaction, rise above and don't give them one. Some might make a PA and advise the train will be delayed because of fare evasion and the coach turns on them - I've done this before and it can be effective but you really need to judge the situation as this might escalate it. They think they have the power and sometimes you can carefully but confidently prove that they do not.

2. Groups of football fans clashing with each other and disturbing other passengers with extremely “colourful” language

If possible, move them away into different coaches. Normally known issues will have something of a BTP / local police presence. But ultimately you don't want to engage with big crowds that might put you in a conflict situation. A polite reminder to keep the noise down, but if it doesn't work you've done what you can. Move yourself to safety (i.e back cab) if it starts escalating.

3. Groups of people giving another passenger abuse: racist & homophobic comments.

Move the victim away into another coach. Advise the BTP / Control of the incident. If safe, try and discreetly take photos of the offenders. Get the victim to call / write a complain to the BTP. Ultimately, a crime has allegedly been committed.

1. Those who have had too many to drink and disturbing other passengers (some of which record the drunk passenger which escalates things)

Try to calm them down or again, move passengers away from the issue if possible. This will be very much dependent on behaviour; they might be a "merry" drunk or might be aggressive.

Much of the guidance comes down to de-escalation, making a dynamic risk assessment, trying to protect/support the vast majority of decent passengers and ultimately, keeping yourself safe. There's no one size fits all, but you do need (or will grow!) a thick skin and don't take it personally. It really doesn't happen all that much but obviously be aware of key times (Friday / saturday nights, sporting events, known hotspots etc.) I also think you need a little bit of a dark sense of humour; some of the absolute nonsense some miscreants I've heard I can look back and laugh after the incident, although obviously I was careful at the time or shook it off.

 

[bramling]

I’m not a TM, but there’s a *lot* of truth in this. Most TMs I work with remark on how it is often the same people who get assaulted over and over, usually due to being confrontational or not reading situations properly. Sadly they also all comment that behaviour has got a lot worse since the Covid pandemic. We can speculate as to why, but it’s a noticeable trend.

The latter is an interesting point, and I’ve certainly noticed it. No doubt the result of some people having spent a considerable amount of time over the last two years doing exactly as they please without having to answer to anyone, combined with some normal functions such as revenue being absent or half hearted. Another good reason to get back to proper normal ASAP.

 

[Bucephalus]

I recently witnessed a tram driver deal with a customer bringing a non-folding bike on to the tram over the PA. The driver was firm, polite, concise, and persistent. The matter was resolved within about 45 seconds!

Granted, things won't always work out that way, but it made me conclude that some people are simply well suited to that position

 

[si_145653]

Very true. Some people you can approach and others are best to stay clear and, if possible, remove other passengers from the situation. Taking into account the things the OP mentioned some actions I might / have taken:




If the person was going to be persistent, remain professional and go through the process of penalty fares, unpaid fare notice etc. Don't engage with the video at all, try to remain calm. If it gets aggressive, walk away and report the incident. They're looking for a reaction, rise above and don't give them one. Some might make a PA and advise the train will be delayed because of fare evasion and the coach turns on them - I've done this before and it can be effective but you really need to judge the situation as this might escalate it. They think they have the power and sometimes you can carefully but confidently prove that they do not.



If possible, move them away into different coaches. Normally known issues will have something of a BTP / local police presence. But ultimately you don't want to engage with big crowds that might put you in a conflict situation. A polite reminder to keep the noise down, but if it doesn't work you've done what you can. Move yourself to safety (i.e back cab) if it starts escalating.



Move the victim away into another coach. Advise the BTP / Control of the incident. If safe, try and discreetly take photos of the offenders. Get the victim to call / write a complain to the BTP. Ultimately, a crime has allegedly been committed.



Try to calm them down or again, move passengers away from the issue if possible. This will be very much dependent on behaviour; they might be a "merry" drunk or might be aggressive.

Much of the guidance comes down to de-escalation, making a dynamic risk assessment, trying to protect/support the vast majority of decent passengers and ultimately, keeping yourself safe. There's no one size fits all, but you do need (or will grow!) a thick skin and don't take it personally. It really doesn't happen all that much but obviously be aware of key times (Friday / saturday nights, sporting events, known hotspots etc.) I also think you need a little bit of a dark sense of humour; some of the absolute nonsense some miscreants I've heard I can look back and laugh after the incident, although obviously I was careful at the time or shook it off.

Thanks for your time with your reply. This is really helpful and interesting.

The fact I have seen videos and issues pop up on my social media feed so much recently led me to believe this could more of a regular occurrence then I thought.

 

[michael74]

Thanks for your time with your reply. This is really helpful and interesting.

The fact I have seen videos and issues pop up on my social media feed so much recently led me to believe this could more of a regular occurrence then I thought.

Having worked as an A&E Nurse, I can testify that certain members of staff do seem to be the ones that are often on the wrong end of a fist, my wife was a Paramedic and would agree. I too am starting as a Conductor in May with GWR and this has been on my mind, but as others have said, most of the time follow your training try to de-escalate the situation, if not then move yourself and if you can other passengers away from the situation.

As for your social media feeds, if you Google or even just view "rail staff assaulted" type videos, then those Cookies will fill your FB/Instagram feeds etc with those types of videos and give a distorted view of the world.

 

[si_145653]

Having worked as an A&E Nurse, I can testify that certain members of staff do seem to be the ones that are often on the wrong end of a fist, my wife was a Paramedic and would agree. I too am starting as a Conductor in May with GWR and this has been on my mind, but as others have said, most of the time follow your training try to de-escalate the situation, if not then move yourself and if you can other passengers away from the situation.

As for your social media feeds, if you Google or even just view "rail staff assaulted" type videos, then those Cookies will fill your FB/Instagram feeds etc with those types of videos and give a distorted view of the world.

Very good point. A lot of my google searches are rail related at the moment so time for a cookie clearing to reset.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Thanks for your time with your reply. This is really helpful and interesting.

The fact I have seen videos and issues pop up on my social media feed so much recently led me to believe this could more of a regular occurrence then I thought.

It will depend on your depot/routes as some are well known trouble hotspots. It certainly can be a daily occurrence, but then sometimes you may not have any issues for a week or two. It will depend how visible you are I the train as well, some routes/tractions you're mostly stuck in cabs and can miss most incidents

 

[Horizon22]

It will depend on your depot/routes as some are well known trouble hotspots. It certainly can be a daily occurrence, but then sometimes you may not have any issues for a week or two. It will depend how visible you are I the train as well, some routes/tractions you're mostly stuck in cabs and can miss most incidents

As an aside, this is partly why if a TOC has on-the-day crew shortages, the late / evening trains are worse affected. Fewer bodies wanting to RDW on rowdy last trains. Also a slight preference I’ve seen towards early shifts generally.

 

[Trackman]

When I was a guard on the Southern Region back in the mid-1980s, if I had a passenger without a ticket who refused point-blank to pay, I would announce loudly to the rest of the carriage words to the effect of: "Well, my friend, all these good people have paid their fares and they're not going to be very pleased to be subsidising people like you. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop the train at the next station and the await the arrival of the BT Police which - at this time of night - could take an hour or two. I know that these fare-paying passengers have homes to go to, or connections to make....but I shall be paid overtime, so I'm in no hurry!" The resulting stares, murmurings and often outright threats from the other passengers usually did the trick. Applied psychology!

I've seen this action on a morning rush-hour train.
Guard (forcefully): I'm not moving, the train ain't moving, but the Police will move you.
He thought about it for a minute then left- swearing etc..
I've actually seen it done on the DLR too.. 'I am not moving, so you might as well get off'
Pax get upset and grumble, fare avoider must think they are going to be lynched if they hang around.

 

[bramling]

I've seen this action on a morning rush-hour train.
Guard (forcefully): I'm not moving, the train ain't moving, but the Police will move you.
He thought about it for a minute then left- swearing etc..
I've actually seen it done on the DLR too.. 'I am not moving, so you might as well get off'
Pax get upset and grumble, fare avoider must think they are going to be lynched if they hang around.

Whilst I understand why some on-train staff do this, the flip side of the coin is that it's pretty unprofessional involving other passengers, both in terms of delaying them, and in terms of tacitly expecting others to do the dirty work (as happened with the Scotrail case some years ago).

To be honest, if in the position of encountering "I'm getting paid for this pal, all these other passengers aren't" which is what the Scotrail guard did, I'd be putting in a complaint about the guard, and probably wishing for DOO. The Scotrail case also resulted in the assisting passenger getting charged with assault, which was hardly a satisfactory outcome.

The proper solution to all this is to have strategic BTP bases, who *can* use force to get problem people off trains without causing too much delay. Unfortunately BTP are rather thinly spread. I remember an issue on a (then) FCC service out of King's Cross, where there was a requirement for BTP to meet the train identified soon after leaving Finsbury Park, yet the next opportunity for BTP to meet the train was stated to be on arrival at Peterborough, which wasn't much use as the miscreants were known to be getting off at somewhere like Sandy. Since then I believe BTP opened a base at Stevenage, which has probably helped. As ever, more BTP of course means more £££ - even in London it can be common to wait hours for BTP, so there's no hope in more rural areas.

 

[Watershed]

Whilst I understand why some on-train staff do this, the flip side of the coin is that it's pretty unprofessional involving other passengers, both in terms of delaying them, and in terms of tacitly expecting others to do the dirty work (as happened with the Scotrail case some years ago).

To be honest, if in the position of encountering "I'm getting paid for this pal, all these other passengers aren't" which is what the Scotrail guard did, I'd be putting in a complaint about the guard, and probably wishing for DOO. The Scotrail case also resulted in the assisting passenger getting charged with assault, which was hardly a satisfactory outcome.

The proper solution to all this is to have strategic BTP bases, who *can* use force to get problem people off trains without causing too much delay. Unfortunately BTP are rather thinly spread. I remember an issue on a (then) FCC service out of King's Cross, where there was a requirement for BTP to meet the train identified soon after leaving Finsbury Park, yet the next opportunity for BTP to meet the train was stated to be on arrival at Peterborough, which wasn't much use as the miscreants were known to be getting off at somewhere like Sandy. Since then I believe BTP opened a base at Stevenage, which has probably helped. As ever, more BTP of course means more £££ - even in London it can be common to wait hours for BTP, so there's no hope in more rural areas.

Agreed. Any fare collected, and even the value of putting off any would-be fare evaders, is far outweighed by the delay minutes, Delay Repay and frankly just the reputational damage of delaying 10s or 100s of people for the sake of one fare.

It's a hardman attitude that simply doesn't reflect well on the railway, even if the passenger is in the wrong. In my view, stuff like that should only happen where the passenger is behaving in a highly antisocial manner (e.g. rowdy behaviour) or is a danger to other passengers.

 

[43066]

I've seen this action on a morning rush-hour train.
Guard (forcefully): I'm not moving, the train ain't moving, but the Police will move you.
He thought about it for a minute then left- swearing etc..
I've actually seen it done on the DLR too.. 'I am not moving, so you might as well get off'
Pax get upset and grumble, fare avoider must think they are going to be lynched if they hang around.

There are some TMs who used to think nothing of physically removing passengers who were misbehaving, and roughing them up on the process! Quite honestly I can understand the sentiment, and a good hiding is exactly what some of the anti social idiots on today’s network badly need. However, rightly or wrongly, clearly that isn’t acceptable these days and is also probably at lot riskier given how behaviour has worsened and the likelihood of someone producing a knife etc.

It's a hardman attitude that simply doesn't reflect well on the railway, even if the passenger is in the wrong. In my view, stuff like that should only happen where the passenger is behaving in a highly antisocial manner (e.g. rowdy behaviour) or is a danger to other passengers.

The same was achievable quite professionally as a DOO driver if someone was attempting to train surf or otherwise behaving unsafely, by simply informing the passengers of the reason for the delay (as required): “ladies and gents, I’m afraid it’s unsafe for me to move the train while person X is standing next to my cab ranting at me/holding doors open. So unfortunately we shall be remaining here until they stop doing it”.

Cue doors flying open, lots of swearing, and the person/s would invariably stop what they were doing and make themselves scarce - indeed on one occasion three off duty policemen frogmarched one troublemaker off the platform to applause from the train!

 

[bramling]

Agreed. Any fare collected, and even the value of putting off any would-be fare evaders, is far outweighed by the delay minutes, Delay Repay and frankly just the reputational damage of delaying 10s or 100s of people for the sake of one fare.

It's a hardman attitude that simply doesn't reflect well on the railway, even if the passenger is in the wrong. In my view, stuff like that should only happen where the passenger is behaving in a highly antisocial manner (e.g. rowdy behaviour) or is a danger to other passengers.

Yes and it doesn’t really work, as in many cases the miscreants will know full well that the train isn’t going to sit there forever, so as long as they’re prepared to sit it out then they will get moving eventually.

Far better to have BTP meet the train, and give the person the opportunity to avoid that by getting off. The moment stuff like “I’m being paid for this” comes up, in my view the guard has lost control of the situation.