Delay Repay 120+ min & Single Leg Pricing

[crablab]

On LNER, if you're delayed beyond 120 minutes on either the outward or return, you're entitled to claim Delay Repay. If you hold a Return ticket then you'll receive the cost of both portions, if you have a single then you'll receive a refund for just that single journey (as with a 60+ minute delay).

Since LNER have introduced more single leg pricing that means they're issuing far fewer returns.

But since they have withdrawn return tickets on many flows and now only offer reduced price singles designed to be used as returns, would two singles bought together in a return itinerary be considered a contract for a 'return ticket' for DR purposes?

LNER seem to think not, at least for Advances. From their FAQ (including spelling error):

If you bought two seperate Advance Single tickets to make a round trip, these do not constitute a Return ticket. The maximum claim will be 100% of the ticket used for a delayed journey.

I suppose this is another "benefit" of the "simplification" that Single Leg Pricing brings...

 

[yorkie]

This was debated before; it is indeed one of the (many) disbenefits of single leg pricing as implemented by LNER.

This is in addition to the ticket price increasing by around 10% since early 2023, and in addition to numerous geographical restrictions being introduced.

And if you think what LNER did earlier this year was bad, this is the tip of the iceberg...

 

[RunawayTrain]

Interesting point. Recently when running late on a single ticket (GWR), I was wondering as the delay developed en-route if I became delayed for over 2 hours I would receive double the fare I paid as compensation, but from what you say it appears it is exactly the same as if I'd been delayed by an hour. In the end I was delayed only 20 minutes, so academic. Good point you raise though.

 

[td97]

There used to be a few workarounds (I think one was a return from Burley Park to King's Cross at the same price as a return from Leeds to King's Cross comprising of 2 singles). Do these still exist?

 

[Watershed]

There used to be a few workarounds (I think one was a return from Burley Park to King's Cross at the same price as a return from Leeds to King's Cross comprising of 2 singles). Do these still exist?

Unfortunately this doesn’t work anymore for most journeys, as LNER have rolled out their single leg pricing to most of the flows they price (unlike the previous ’trial’). There are still a couple of journeys where it’d work, for example instead of Edinburgh to London Terminals (which is also, scandalously, restricted to ‘via York’) you could buy Croy to London Terminals, which is set by Avanti and thus retains return fares.

However, Avanti’s Off-Peak fares between London and stations north of Preston have a break of journey restriction on the outward portion. Until now this has largely been theoretical unless you were trying to circumvent the Off-Peak restrictions applicable to tickets to Preston and south thereof. But I now see the prospect of this being enforced as less remote, particularly if LNER want to avoid people undercutting their inflated fares.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed if people want workarounds, feel free to ask on this forum and we will try our best to thwart LNER's attempts to downgrade the offering while charging over the odds. But it's often not possible now.

And as I said earlier, prepare for far, far worse to come from LNER.

Bear in mind also that what is happening at LNER, and you've not yet seen everything they are up to, will be replicated across the entire network, if the DfT have their way.

 

[crablab]

It seems rather disingenuous to have been offering this 120+ min DR, then to say "ah, well we'll simplify ticketing so if you're buying a return you get two singles" and to remove the option of a return entirely, but then go on to claim that two singles, which make up a complete return itinerary and which would previously have been a return, don't count as a 'return' for your 120+ min DR scheme.

"Have your cake and eat it" comes to mind.

 

[GoneSouth]

Indeed if people want workarounds, feel free to ask on this forum and we will try our best to thwart LNER's attempts to downgrade the offering while charging over the odds. But it's often not possible now.

And as I said earlier, prepare for far, far worse to come from LNER.

Bear in mind also that what is happening at LNER, and you've not yet seen everything they are up to, will be replicated across the entire network, if the DfT have their way.

What else can we expect from them, what are they ’up to’?

 

[crablab]

What else can we expect from them, what are they ’up to’?

I understand the general fear to be turning everything into an 'airline on wheels' with demand based pricing, fixed time Advance ticketing and removing features of the ticketing system advantageous to passengers.

 

[Watershed]

What else can we expect from them, what are they ’up to’?

Everything that will happen has already been publicly mooted. But it's very anti-passenger.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed; while no-one is yet in a position to officially confirm anything, as it's not been announced yet, what @crablab says has already been widely mooted.

In terms of Delay Repay, nothing further will change, on LNER; the negative change has already happened, albeit with absolutely no publicity from LNER, who continue to purport that the changes are entirely positive for customers.

When train companies make claims that fares are ostensibly becoming more customer friendly, the negative effects are not clearly communicated; it's all about spin.

LNER are completely in cahoots with the DfT and neither party is prepared to be clear and honest regarding the ways in which customers are negatively affected by any changes which they make, or propose to make.

There is no effective and truly independent watchdog to do anything about this; the Rail Ombudsman purely deals with disputes (and has poor knowledge of fares related issues; while Transport Focus are funded by DfT and are so keen on "simplification" that they are quite content for rights to be lost and fares to rise, without even a whimper of discontent.

Edit: here is an article which may be relevant:

Train fares to fluctuate under airline-style demand-pricing trial

Train fares will fluctuate based on demand in a similar way to airline tickets as the rail industry seeks to move into the 21st century, the transport secretary

www.thetimes.co.uk

Train fares will fluctuate based on demand in a similar way to airline tickets as the rail industry seeks to move into the 21st century, the transport secretary has announced...

...Ministers believe this so-called “demand-based pricing” will help better manage capacity while also raising revenue...

Basically it's about making the railway more like budget airlines, except I believe an Anytime fare is likely to be retained.

It's beyond the scope of this thread though, and has been covered in other threads.

 

[GoneSouth]

Do you have a link to any news about this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What else can we expect from them, what are they ’up to’?

There is going to be a trial on one route of removing all walk up fares, I believe (though it isn't clear if Anytime Singles will remain), which will mean loss of flexibility and significant price increases on Friday evenings/Sunday afternoons.

 

[Hadders]

This is very bad news for passengers and will mean massive increases in fares at popular times.

We have been warning about it for years, and it seems it’s might now happen.

For example, it currently costs £68.40 to travel from London to York on a Sunday afternoon. This isn’t exactly cheap but LNER/DfT/RDG/The Treasury want to increase this - don’t be surprised if you end up paying closer to £150 to make this journey in a couple of years time.

 

[35B]

It seems rather disingenuous to have been offering this 120+ min DR, then to say "ah, well we'll simplify ticketing so if you're buying a return you get two singles" and to remove the option of a return entirely, but then go on to claim that two singles, which make up a complete return itinerary and which would previously have been a return, don't count as a 'return' for your 120+ min DR scheme.

"Have your cake and eat it" comes to mind.

That has been the case since GNER days, where such tickets were routinely sold to fulfil the purpose of a return journey, and were explicitly excluded from Delay Repay arrangements. Single leg pricing has just twisted the thumbscrews a bit further.

 

[Haywain]

since GNER days, where such tickets were routinely sold to fulfil the purpose of a return journey, and were explicitly excluded from Delay Repay arrangements.

As with every other train operator. I get that single leg pricing has extended that to walk-up tickets on the ECML, but no TOC has treated two singles as a return for Delay Repay purposes, ever.

 

[yorkie]

As with every other train operator. I get that single leg pricing has extended that to walk-up tickets on the ECML, but no TOC has treated two singles as a return for Delay Repay purposes, ever.

Understandably so, when hitherto anyone making a return journey had the option of purchasing a return ticket.

The issue here is that anyone wanting a return is now forced to buy two singles, at greater cost than when returns were available, and with worse conditions, to rub it in even further.

 

[Haywain]

The issue here is that anyone wanting a return is now forced to buy two singles, at greater cost than when returns were available, and with worse conditions, to rub it in even further.

I thought the issue was Delay Repay. And the point I was making was that you can't just claim that not treating two (Advance) singles as a return is unique to LNER. That is not a defence of single leg pricing, it's a statement of fact.

 

[yorkie]

I thought the issue was Delay Repay.

Yes; the conditions are worse, in addition to a price increase.

And the point I was making was that you can't just claim that not treating two (Advance) singles as a return is unique to LNER. That is not a defence of single leg pricing, it's a statement of fact.

Yes but on other operators customers have a choice.

LNER have effectively removed that choice, for many passengers, by abolishing all return fares for most flows they operate, this worsening the conditions in addition to increasing the cost of return journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I would be more bothered about other things LNER are scheming than this. Being delayed 120 minutes is very, very rare. I think I've maybe had 2-3 ever, though I am just short of racking up another one today!

 

[35B]

Yes; the conditions are worse, in addition to a price increase.

Yes but on other operators customers have a choice. LNER have removed that choice, this worsening the conditions in addition to increasing the cost of return journeys.

It’s happened to me once in the last 10 years - last Thursday due to what’s now become a fatality at Newark.

In that time I’ve bought myriad single leg and return tickets without thought for the impact on what I might get from Delay Repay if extremely badly delayed.

The loss of rights here has had no bearing on my view of LNER.

 

[yorkie]

It’s happened to me once in the last 10 years - last Thursday due to what’s now become a fatality at Newark.

In that time I’ve bought myriad single leg and return tickets without thought for the impact on what I might get from Delay Repay if extremely badly delayed.

The loss of rights here has had no bearing on my view of LNER.

You are entitled to your opinions, but the point the OP made remains valid.

In any event, as pointed out in this thread , the loss of rights - regardless of your view of them - have been accompanied by increased fares.

I don't think there is anything further to discuss on the matter, as the question has been answered.

 

[crablab]

but the point the OP made remains valid.

And the OP was impacted not only by a 134 minute delay (as calculated by LNER) but also the single leg pricing which meant they only received the price of the Super Off Peak single they were forced to buy.

I don't think there is anything further to discuss on the matter, as the question has been answered.

Indeed. Thanks for the replies

 

[yorkie]

You're very welcome

 

[kieron]

Yes but on other operators customers have a choice. LNER have removed that choice, this worsening the conditions in addition to increasing the cost of return journeys.

You have a choice, whatever journey you are undertaking. If I was travelling between Chester and Sheffield via Stockport, I could buy a return ticket, or I could pay an extra £19 and get two singles (I'm ignoring advance fares because only Crosscountry set them, and this isn't really Crosscountry's area). I'd only actually buy the singles if I had a special need for them.

In a similar way, someone travelling (say) from York to London and back could buy two single tickets for the journey, or could buy one or more return tickets. You just need to choose some tickets and pay the price they ask.

The government may well intend to remove more return tickets over time, but that's where we are now.

 

[crablab]

You have a choice, whatever journey you are undertaking.

Please let me know the appropriate 'via London' return fare for Reading to Dundee.

Hint: you may need to go back to a previous fares period to find it.