Different types of coal?

[alexl92]

Had a fantastic day on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway today. Whilst on the footbridge at Howarth, I noticed that the Coal Staithes in the yard seemed to contain 4 different types or grades of coal. Is this because different engines steam best with different types of coal, or are different kinds needed when building the fire initially?

 

[a_c_skinner]

GWR locos were always said to be best on hard Welsh steam coal and some of their performances in the locomotive exchanges was (I am told) put down to less good coal in other regions. How true this is I don't know, but coal varies in hardness and (I think) tar/bitumen content. Brown coal is softest, anthracite hardest. How this plays out in the current preservation scene I don't know, but it is often blamed for poor steaming.

 

[Adlington]

Brown coal is softest, anthracite hardest.

Was brown coal ever used in steam locomotives in GB? And has there ever been any anthracite mined commercially in the UK?

 

[swt_passenger]

Anthracite was mined commercially in part of the South Wales coalfield.

There was no significant source of lignite (brown coal) in GB to the best of my knowledge.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I was merely showing off about the wide range of coal, sorry. I've a vague idea brown coal was used in China in steam locos and wiki agrees that anthracite was mined in South Wales, which brings us neatly back to the GWR locos and their haycock fires.

 

[ilkestonian]

Given the scarcity of UK mined coal these days, I suspect the preserved lines, as well as owners of mainline steam locos have, to a large extent, to accept what they can get.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes, it comes up in the magazines from time to time, but I only read them for the adverts for duffle bags, Thermos flasks and anoraks.

Another Ilson lad BTW.

 

[Adlington]

the preserved lines, as well as owners of mainline steam locos have, to a large extent, to accept what they can get.

See this thread

 

[ilkestonian]

Another Ilson lad BTW.

Moved away from Ilson about five years back but still have close family there.
Miss it!

 

[ilkestonian]

GWR locos were always said to be best on hard Welsh steam coal and some of their performances in the locomotive exchanges was (I am told) put down to less good coal in other regions. How true this is I don't know, but coal varies in hardness and (I think) tar/bitumen content. Brown coal is softest, anthracite hardest. How this plays out in the current preservation scene I don't know, but it is often blamed for poor steaming.

GWR locos certainly did work best with Welsh steam coal, in no small part because their fireboxes and draughting were designed for it, in the same way that LNER locos worked best on hard Yorkshire coal because their design took that coal's characteristics into account.

The different burn rates and heat outputs required different depths and shapes of firebed and the dimensions of the firebox were set with these characteristics in mind.

Added to this, of course, years of experience by firemen as to the best way of firing "their" locos meant that in the exchanges, firemen were either using coal or locos they were not used to, so inevitably "foreign" locos tended to perform worse than "home" locos; and this ignores any conscious or subconscious bias by crews to favour their own...

 

[alexl92]

Interesting. There were 4 staithes, each with different sizes of coal lumps, and some looked more shiny whereas others looked almost like dried mud. The KWVR operational fleet at the moment is: LMS 4F, BR Standard 4, USA S160, Taff Vale 0-6-2 and LNWR Coal Tank with the Ivatt 2MT on its way back; Nunlow is about to bow out. I suppose given that there are LMS, BR, USA and welsh designs there they may need 4 different types?

 

[ilkestonian]

Interesting. There were 4 staithes, each with different sizes of coal lumps, and some looked more shiny whereas others looked almost like dried mud. The KWVR operational fleet at the moment is: LMS 4F, BR Standard 4, USA S160, Taff Vale 0-6-2 and LNWR Coal Tank with the Ivatt 2MT on its way back; Nunlow is about to bow out. I suppose given that there are LMS, BR, USA and welsh designs there they may need 4 different types?

Purely conjecture, but my guess is that each delivery is kept separate, because simply adding new deliveries to the old stock would be a bad idea on several levels. But from a practical point of view, until it's delivered, and used, no-one can be certain how good it is. Maybe once some of a new batch has been burned, it might be found that it's characteristics make it more suitable for some locos locos.

At this point, it would be possible for each loco to be given the type which best suits it.

 

[furnessvale]

Purely conjecture, but my guess is that each delivery is kept separate, because simply adding new deliveries to the old stock would be a bad idea on several levels. But from a practical point of view, until it's delivered, and used, no-one can be certain how good it is. Maybe once some of a new batch has been burned, it might be found that it's characteristics make it more suitable for some locos locos.

At this point, it would be possible for each loco to be given the type which best suits it.

Keep doing that for long enough and you finish up with several tons of crushed mush at the bottom of the stack which used to be expensive coal.

 

[billh]

Nunlow is about to bow out. I suppose given that there are LMS, BR, USA and welsh designs there they may need 4 different types?

The last time I saw Nunlow in steam the fuel used was old railway sleepers and pallets, this was at Dinting Railway Centre in nineteen nought plonk. I don't think there was any coal in the bunker at all.She seemed to manage ok pottering about in the yard.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Welsh anthracite - the very best quality of hard coal , (high carbon and low arsenic) , is still mined commercially in South Wales at Gwaun Cae Gurwen opencast - and in some small private mines. Not too good for locomotives as it is slow to ignite. Excellent domestic coal - and when mixed , some is burnt in power stations. Used in the past in malting , hopping and food production plants such as brewing. Smokeless.

Best loco coal was "steam coal" - bituminous , such places as the Garw Valley - which produced cobble sized grades - perfect to firing as no need to break up lumps. The large Ffos-y-Fran site at Cwmbargoed - again in South Wales produces (limited) amounts for rail use , most goes to Aberthaw Power station.

Brown coal was a feature of the old East Germany - soft and very dirty when burned , ironically the race to get rid of nuclear power in the united Germany has seen an increase in production and consumption in power stations. Very dusty and with an acrid smell.

The coal market was always segregated - the more you paid , the better the quality , the lowest denominator was "nutty slack" - basically dust with some small nuggets mixed, the best being the aforementioned anthracite , with "steam house coal" somewhere in the middle.

I fired on the Woltzyn - Poznan line some years ago - fairly hard Polish coal - but the tender was full of large boulders and about a foot of wet "slack" coal - having read all the books I set off to break the lumps up and to fire "little and often" which should reduce the smoke and ensure better combustion - I was advised to basically throw it all in , as it came - in some quantity. Whilst steam pressure was maintained - we blacked the sky out. Felt wrong somehow.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Anthracite was mined commercially in part of the South Wales coalfield.

There was no significant source of lignite (brown coal) in GB to the best of my knowledge.

There were some lignite mines around Newton Abbot / West Devon - only used locally as it reduced (expensive) transport costs from the main Welsh coalfield , or even further afield Midlands / Yorkshire production areas. Hence the sea borne flows from South Wales with loco and other coal to smaller ports such as Padstow / Fremington and even Kingswear ! .....some of the bigger coal flows into the West Country by rail was coal for the railways own use - in theory carried "free" - but not really. The Southern used Kent coal from the 4 pits around Deal , which was OK , but a bit dusty.

 

[Taunton]

Phoebe Snow
All dressed in white
Rides the road
Of Anthracite

The Lackawanna Road, New York City to Buffalo, served anthracite mines in Pennsylvania, and did the usual "burned what they served" approach. Anthracite giving less smoke, and USA trains of 1900 not being well sealed, their advertising campaign was based on their coal's qualities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Snow_(character)

John Betjeman, in one of his books, wrote that each London main line station had a unique and identifiable smell because of the different coal each used.

The Southern used Kent coal from the 4 pits around Deal , which was OK , but a bit dusty.

The Southern in the West of England used South Wales coal; the Kent collieries, late on the scene anyway, probably could not produce enough. Now to keep it out of the hands of the GWR, who would have to be paid to haul it, it came from around Swansea on the LMS via Shrewsbury, Crewe, Birmingham, Bath, and the S&D to Templecombe, thence onward, and the odd wagonload probably went to the small loco point at Ilfracombe, high up above the town, from where on a clear day you can see Swansea ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Phoebe Snow
All dressed in white
Rides the road
Of Anthracite

The Lackawanna Road, New York City to Buffalo, served anthracite mines in Pennsylvania, and did the usual "burned what they served" approach. Anthracite giving less smoke, and USA trains of 1900 not being well sealed, their advertising campaign was based on their coal's qualities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Snow_(character)

John Betjeman, in one of his books, wrote that each London main line station had a unique and identifiable smell because of the different coal each used.

The Southern in the West of England used South Wales coal; the Kent collieries, late on the scene anyway, probably could not produce enough. Now to keep it out of the hands of the GWR, who would have to be paid to haul it, it came from around Swansea on the LMS via Shrewsbury, Crewe, Birmingham, Bath, and the S&D to Templecombe, thence onward, and the odd wagonload probably went to the small loco point at Ilfracombe, high up above the town, from where on a clear day you can see Swansea ...

A subject dear to my heart is Welsh coal ....ships from Swansea etc shipped best GCG anthracite to New York and other East coast ports for use on the New York Elevated lines and East Coast routes , in direct competition with Pennsylvania anthracite - again the shipping rates were affordable as the ships returned with Wheat etc from the Prairies. (and up the St Laurence seaway for Canada - but only in the non frozen months of the year) - my great , great Grandfather was a sea captain of Dutch origin and he earned a good living in his own ship on this trade - said vessel built in Barnstaple.

 

[randyrippley]

..............snip....................
The Southern in the West of England used South Wales coal; the Kent collieries, late on the scene anyway, probably could not produce enough. Now to keep it out of the hands of the GWR, who would have to be paid to haul it, it came from around Swansea on the LMS via Shrewsbury, Crewe, Birmingham, Bath, and the S&D to Templecombe, thence onward, and the odd wagonload probably went to the small loco point at Ilfracombe, high up above the town, from where on a clear day you can see Swansea ...

You'd have expected the Southern to have used coal from Somerset via the S&D, but this table about rail shipments of Somerset coal indicates the Midland had no involvement post 1903
https://projects.exeter.ac.uk/mhn/b_s_coal/Railways.htm
In the 20 years or so that the Midland were involved, their shipments were only around an eighth of the GWR. It doesn't say whether this was for rail or other use, but the idea of the Midland taking Somerset coal north sounds perverse given the company origins.
Having said that, this page seems to indicate that most Somerset coal was bituminous and so maybe not the best for steam production
http://earthwise.bgs.ac.uk/index.php/Coal_and_coal_mining,_Bristol_and_Gloucester_region
"The coals of the Bristol-Somerset area and the Forest of Dean are essentially bituminous, the majority of them having strong coking properties. During recent times over 40 per cent of the output of the Bristol-Somerset area was used by the gas industry. In the Forest of Dean, the Pennant Formation provided gas-making and long-flame steam coals, whilst the Supra-Pennant Formation furnished house coals."

 

[SquireBev]

I could be wrong but I think the coal staithes in Haworth yard belong to an independent coal merchant, and there's still enough of a market in the area for domestic coal, which would go somewhere to explaining the different grades of coal being stored.

 

[Taunton]

You'd have expected the Southern to have used coal from Somerset via the S&D, but this table about rail shipments of Somerset coal indicates the Midland had no involvement post 1903

The Bristol-Radstock-Frome line did move a lot of the coal out from the Somerset mines, generally northwards to the Bristol power station in Portishead, and to gasworks. There were several full trainloads a day to the end of the 1960s. However the S&D carried a fair amount as well, it was a significant northward traffic for them, and the line served several collieries. I wonder if those figures for the Midland are actually only for the old collieries on their own line, around Staple Hill. I don't think Somerset coal was suitable for railway use.

 

[hexagon789]

I was told that Scottish coal wasn't the best quality and it was often mixed with higher grade coal such as 'Welsh coal' to make it better at burning. Not sure if this is still done though.

 

[341o2]

From p 183 Bulleid, Last Giant of Steam, it is mentioned that when 35022 was tested at Rugby and on the LM main line, the following varieties were used - South Kirkby, hard from South Yorkshire, Blidworth, hard from East Midlands and Bedwin, soft from South Wales. 35022 steamed well on all three varieties, in I Tried to run a Railway, when the light pacifics were on loan to the GE, on one occasion, the fire was run down until there was only 100psi, then the fireman hurled "grade 3" coal until level with the firebox door. Such treatment would have killed any Gresley or Thompson engine stone dead, but not the spam can

Was it in the 80's or 90's that a consignment of Polish coal gave several heritage lines headaches as lampooned in the Young Isambard column
"There is a problem with the coal you supplied"
"What is it?"
"It won't burn"

 

[thejuggler]

I could be wrong but I think the coal staithes in Haworth yard belong to an independent coal merchant, and there's still enough of a market in the area for domestic coal, which would go somewhere to explaining the different grades of coal being stored.

You are correct. Its the local coal merchant's stock. You don't have to go far from Haworth to be well off the mains gas network.

 

[Gostav]

Did British locomotives burn coal bricks? Like this shot from LA GARE DE LA BASTILLE

 

[hexagon789]

Did British locomotives burn coal bricks? Like this shot from LA GARE DE LA BASTILLE

I've only seen lumps (or dust for that matter) but some company may have used brickettes.

 

[Adlington]

but some company may have used brickettes.

I'm not sure whether this sentence from the Great Western Archive: "One good use of the coal dust was in the form of briquettes made from compressed coal dust" means that GW did actualy use briquettes, or it simply only mentions a possible use of coal dust.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not sure whether this sentence from the Great Western Archive: "One good use of the coal dust was in the form of briquettes made from compressed coal dust" means that GW did actualy use briquettes, or it simply only mentions a possible use of coal dust.

Wonder if that would helped with the dust coal many firemen had to deal with towards the end of steam.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wonder if that would helped with the dust coal many firemen had to deal with towards the end of steam.

Quite a few briquetting plants were in operation post WW2 , where "dust" was made into "ovoids" (about the size of a bar of soap) - mixed with pitch. They were rubbish - and even when used on low category freight trains , the crews hated them for apart from rubbish steam raising capability , they were quite toxic and sulphurous. Crews would sometimes resort to robbing adjacent coal wagons to get moving.

French domestic coal was traditionally soft and broke up easily - and from an early age - they resorted to coaling their engines with a mix of slack and small coal , bulked up by the large block briquettes. There were 2 kinds "Aniche" and "AZT" , the former were the better ones , and they would be broken in half and used sparingly with small coal fired over them. Crews would sometimes sift the tenders for any "decent" lumps - i.e bigger than an orange , and store them for future use. The use of slack coal partly explains the use of goggles by footplate crews , and the insulting term of "blackfaces" for crews. Pre WW2 - the French companies liked to burn Welsh coal , but that of course , came at a price.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm not sure whether this sentence from the Great Western Archive: "One good use of the coal dust was in the form of briquettes made from compressed coal dust" means that GW did actualy use briquettes, or it simply only mentions a possible use of coal dust.

They did - see below. South Wales had an impressive stack of many thousands of tons of "duff" which was almost impossible to shift - at Felin Fran off the Swansea District line from about 1932 - but with WW2 , it was mainly sent off to power plants / industry as demand increased and oil stocks were challenged. Some was made into briquettes with poor results.