Do We Need an Outer London Orbital Rail Line?

[DynamicSpirit]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one? Would it be successful enough to justify building costs? And where should it go if we had one?

(This discussion originated on the Serving Battersea and Nine Elms thread - it's off topic for that thread so I'm starting this as a new topic).

I live in outer SouthEast London, and I've noticed it's very difficult to make Orbital journeys by rail in this part of the World. Most of the rail provision caters for passengers heading into central London. We're about to get CrossRail, which will make radial journeys even easier, but if you want to travel orbitally, the car is often almost the only option. Given the levels of congestion in London, that seems an absurd situation.

The success of the Overground (despite it having very poor connectivity to other lines in places) has proven that there's a lot of demand for orbital rail travel in zone 2, and for me that begs the question, what if we had something similar further out?

I made the suggestion in the aforementioned other thread of solving this - at least in SE London - by extending the Goblin to Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath town centre/Dartford, and DJL has followed up by suggesting extending as far as Hayes. Putting the ideas together you end up with the following route, which looks to me like it would provide either a good GOBLIN extension in itself, or a good portion of a full Orbital line.

• Barking
• Barking Riverside (new station)
• Thamesmead (new station)
• Abbey Wood
• Brampton Road (new station)
• Bexleyheath
• Bexleyheath Town Centre (new station)
• Bexley
• Foots Cray (new station)
• St Mary Cray
• Petts Wood (I'd suggest Orpington instead)
• Bromley Common
• Hayes

(Obviously there'd be a lot of tunnelling involved to build this.)

 

[MidlandMainlie]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one? Would it be successful enough to justify building costs? And where should it go if we had one?

(This discussion originated on the Serving Battersea and Nine Elms thread - it's off topic for that thread so I'm starting this as a new topic).

I live in outer SouthEast London, and I've noticed it's very difficult to make Orbital journeys by rail in this part of the World. Most of the rail provision caters for passengers heading into central London. We're about to get CrossRail, which will make radial journeys even easier, but if you want to travel orbitally, the car is often almost the only option. Given the levels of congestion in London, that seems an absurd situation.

The success of the Overground (despite it having very poor connectivity to other lines in places) has proven that there's a lot of demand for orbital rail travel in zone 2, and for me that begs the question, what if we had something similar further out?

I made the suggestion in the aforementioned other thread of solving this - at least in SE London - by extending the Goblin to Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath town centre/Dartford, and DJL has followed up by suggesting extending as far as Hayes. Putting the ideas together you end up with the following route, which looks to me like it would provide either a good GOBLIN extension in itself, or a good portion of a full Orbital line.

• Barking
• Barking Riverside (new station)
• Thamesmead (new station)
• Abbey Wood
• Brampton Road (new station)
• Bexleyheath
• Bexleyheath Town Centre (new station)
• Bexley
• Foots Cray (new station)
• St Mary Cray
• Petts Wood (I'd suggest Orpington instead)
• Bromley Common
• Hayes

(Obviously there'd be a lot of tunnelling involved to build this.)

One proposal put forward by Architect Norman Foster in his plans for a Thames Estuary airport on the Isle of Grain in Kent was to build an orbital railway alongside the M25, which would stretch from the Great Western and have parkway stations where it intersects the main lines radiating out of London. It would have 4 tracks (2 high speed passenger lines and 2 for freight from Thames estuary ports. The whole line plus a new 6 lane motorway would cross the Thames under a new flood defence barrier.

Brilliant idea for integrated planning/transport so obviously will never be built in the UK

But worth a read

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/projects/thames-hub/

 

[reb0118]

Would this be similar to the Berlin Ringbahn?

 

[Busaholic]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one? Would it be successful enough to justify building costs? And where should it go if we had one?

(This discussion originated on the Serving Battersea and Nine Elms thread - it's off topic for that thread so I'm starting this as a new topic).

I live in outer SouthEast London, and I've noticed it's very difficult to make Orbital journeys by rail in this part of the World. Most of the rail provision caters for passengers heading into central London. We're about to get CrossRail, which will make radial journeys even easier, but if you want to travel orbitally, the car is often almost the only option. Given the levels of congestion in London, that seems an absurd situation.

The success of the Overground (despite it having very poor connectivity to other lines in places) has proven that there's a lot of demand for orbital rail travel in zone 2, and for me that begs the question, what if we had something similar further out?

I made the suggestion in the aforementioned other thread of solving this - at least in SE London - by extending the Goblin to Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath town centre/Dartford, and DJL has followed up by suggesting extending as far as Hayes. Putting the ideas together you end up with the following route, which looks to me like it would provide either a good GOBLIN extension in itself, or a good portion of a full Orbital line.

• Barking
• Barking Riverside (new station)
• Thamesmead (new station)
• Abbey Wood
• Brampton Road (new station)
• Bexleyheath
• Bexleyheath Town Centre (new station)
• Bexley
• Foots Cray (new station)
• St Mary Cray
• Petts Wood (I'd suggest Orpington instead)
• Bromley Common
• Hayes

(Obviously there'd be a lot of tunnelling involved to build this.)

Just holding to this line of thinking for now, would suggest Locks Bottom after Orpington (big newish hospital) then Hayes. Next obvious stop after that would be New Addington, which famously has bo station but does have the original Tramlink route to Croydon (and Wimbledon). An extension of Tramlink to Hayes could be achieved relatively quickly and cheaply, at the expense of playing fields unfortunately, but what do politicians and local authorities care about those anyway?

 

[DJL]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one? Would it be successful enough to justify building costs? And where should it go if we had one?

(This discussion originated on the Serving Battersea and Nine Elms thread - it's off topic for that thread so I'm starting this as a new topic).

I live in outer SouthEast London, and I've noticed it's very difficult to make Orbital journeys by rail in this part of the World. Most of the rail provision caters for passengers heading into central London. We're about to get CrossRail, which will make radial journeys even easier, but if you want to travel orbitally, the car is often almost the only option. Given the levels of congestion in London, that seems an absurd situation.

The success of the Overground (despite it having very poor connectivity to other lines in places) has proven that there's a lot of demand for orbital rail travel in zone 2, and for me that begs the question, what if we had something similar further out?

I made the suggestion in the aforementioned other thread of solving this - at least in SE London - by extending the Goblin to Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath town centre/Dartford, and DJL has followed up by suggesting extending as far as Hayes. Putting the ideas together you end up with the following route, which looks to me like it would provide either a good GOBLIN extension in itself, or a good portion of a full Orbital line.

• Barking
• Barking Riverside (new station)
• Thamesmead (new station)
• Abbey Wood
• Brampton Road (new station)
• Bexleyheath
• Bexleyheath Town Centre (new station)
• Bexley
• Foots Cray (new station)
• St Mary Cray
• Petts Wood (I'd suggest Orpington instead)
• Bromley Common
• Hayes

(Obviously there'd be a lot of tunnelling involved to build this.)

I actually have being doing a crayonista plan for a while involving an extension to the Victoria line, from which I took part and applied it to your (better) idea for a goblin extension. (I now know that an extension to the Victoria line to as likely as, well, something very unlikely - hence why I've never shared my crazy idea).
I had a number of options - of which Orpington was one (incl. Bromley Common, Locks Bottom, Carlton Parade and a separate station at St Mary Cray close to the industrial estates but short walk from the main station. I've since decided that these stations are far too close together) I chose Petts Wood simply because the alignment is better - for a mainline you'd want to reduce curve radii as much as is practical - something which is less of a concern for a tube line (generally lower running speeds anyway)

Just holding to this line of thinking for now, would suggest Locks Bottom after Orpington (big newish hospital) then Hayes. Next obvious stop after that would be New Addington, which famously has bo station but does have the original Tramlink route to Croydon (and Wimbledon). An extension of Tramlink to Hayes could be achieved relatively quickly and cheaply, at the expense of playing fields unfortunately, but what do politicians and local authorities care about those anyway?

You're right about Addington - there isn't a station for a very long way in any direction.
You've also got the ever expanding Biggin Hill airport nearby with no rail connections.
Perhaps instead of Petts wood and Hayes a better bet would be Orpington, then a large curve including Biggin Hill Airport, then New Addington and under the existing tramlink into Croydon.

Of course giving Biggin Hill a station would probably cause it to expand even more - something the local residents will no doubt object to...

One proposal put forward by Architect Norman Foster in his plans for a Thames Estuary airport on the Isle of Grain in Kent was to build an orbital railway alongside the M25, which would stretch from the Great Western and have parkway stations where it intersects the main lines radiating out of London. It would have 4 tracks (2 high speed passenger lines and 2 for freight from Thames estuary ports. The whole line plus a new 6 lane motorway would cross the Thames under a new flood defence barrier.

Brilliant idea for integrated planning/transport so obviously will never be built in the UK

But worth a read

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/projects/thames-hub/

If the Estuary airport gets build then providing road and rail links to it is an obvious must. And getting those connections from both sides of the river is, again, obviously required. However I'd say that such a crossing provided little to no benefit for people inside the current M25.
Also it seems highly likely that the majority of the rail traffic, at least on one side of the river, will be London bound - i.e. radially not orbitally. So probably doesn't really solve the same problem for mid kent/mid essex either.

At least, not directly.

By removing a large amount of road traffic (especially lorries) from the Dartford crossing it would go a long way towards relieving congestion in the area and may render an orbital rail crossing unnecessary (lay on more buses instead).
Alternatively if the drop in traffic is significant enough perhaps some of the current road crossing could be converted to rail? (N.B. I have no idea what the tunnel clearances are - probably not enough, and no idea if existing trains could make the gradient on the bridge?)


hmm, bit of a long post that one!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one?

An outer London Orbital rail line. No problem, sir. Would you like a fleet of brand-new 12 coach trains to run on it.....

I have highlighted the magical key word that will guarantee unlimited finance that will ensure this takes place.

 

[ian1944]

If "joined-up", "stakeholder" and "sustainable" were included too, it would be beyond a certainty. There's probably a phrase for that, too - "super-likely", "negative unlikelihood"?

 

[fusionblue]

Given this is SE London - and already considering the stalling of any further DLR extensions south of Lewisham, the untangling at Lewisham NR junction, bakerloo line extensions south and crossrail (1 and 2), london overground and thameslink programme all not looking here at all, never mind the funnelling of traffic through the blackwall and rotherhithe tunnels - i wouldn't hold my breath.

The promise of "unlimited money" disappears.

(Me? Pessimistic?)

 

[TheEdge]

Meanwhile anyone outside of London should remain cap in hand begging for some loose change like a Victorian street urchin.

Forbid those rural rapscallions be permitted investment.

 

[34D]

In my view the benefits and modal shift come by being in zone 6 and beyond. However there is a reason that places such as Heathrow to Hemel to hitchin to Harlow have such poor bus links

 

[Busaholic]

An outer London Orbital rail line. No problem, sir. Would you like a fleet of brand-new 12 coach trains to run on it.....

I have highlighted the magical key word that will guarantee unlimited finance that will ensure this takes place.

Although I've lived in Cornwall this past quarter century I still think of myself as a Londoner, albeit one who could never afford to live there again, and I share your frustration that London seems to get big infrastructure projects much more easily than other regions: for instance, despite Cameron's protestations we'll never get an alternative to the doomed Dawlish route.

HOWEVER, there are things that a capital city expanding at such a rapid rate must have if the country's economy is not to be a sick joke and such a thing is a good, co-ordinated public transport system. Also, and I don't think this is entirely prejudice based on the part of London I grew up in and continue to have family connections with, S.E. London has long suffered from the lack of Tube provision and the historical nature of much of its other railway provision which is only now being (begrudingly' I suspect) addressed.

Looking at the idea of an outer orbital route 'in the round' (pun intended) shouldn't entail drawing lines on maps and saying all these areas must get connected to each other as part of a grand plan, rather that sensible individual schemes, such as Barking to Bexleyheath etc be proposed and built, and if at some stage some of these can be joined together, then all the better. For funding reasons, as suggested above, these would probably in the main within Greater London, but if under the aegis of London Overground might extend beyond the boundary e.g Hertfordshire where 'red' London trains and buses have always run. I'd envisage light rail and tram/train being part of this mix/

One last, important point for now. London fare scales are based on a radial zone system, so if you were able to travel from Bexleyheath to Barnet staying in the same zone there'd be an outcry from less-fortunate travellers

 

[SF-02]

Meanwhile anyone outside of London should remain cap in hand begging for some loose change like a Victorian street urchin.

Forbid those rural rapscallions be permitted investment.

God forbid as a country we take a root and branch look at the entire govt spending budget and prioritise infrastructure and transport as something more deserving of a bigger amount of spending, in order to benefit areas in need - both in London & the rest of the country.

 

[AM9]

God forbid as a country we take a root and branch look at the entire govt spending budget and prioritise infrastructure and transport as something more deserving of a bigger amount of spending, in order to benefit areas in need - both in London & the rest of the country.

Oh dear, this thread has gravitated into another London bashing one. There's a much better one here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101608&page=28
Then this thread can return to its original topic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh dear, this thread has gravitated into another London bashing one.

Perhaps if London can have all the best that rail can offer, it must be expected to take all the brickbats.

 

[SF-02]

Oh dear, this thread has gravitated into another London bashing one. There's a much better one here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101608&page=28
Then this thread can return to its original topic.

Hmm not by me. I said more for London and outside London. That should please everyone...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps, as the person who started this thread, I should clarify: The purpose of this thread is to discuss the idea of an orbital railway in or near outer London. That might include the desirability or otherwise of such a railway, whether building it could represent value for money or present a good business case, possible routes for it, interaction with other schemes, any aspect of how it might be implemented, etc.

I am fully aware that rail provision in London is already better than most of the country, and am equally aware that you could go to almost any location in the UK and make a good case for why that particular location deserves better train services or new lines. I have great sympathy for the arguments of those who would like more rail investment in other regions. However, I regard those kinds of issues as outside the scope of this particular thread. And as AM9 has pointed out, there is already another thread for that purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One proposal put forward by Architect Norman Foster in his plans for a Thames Estuary airport on the Isle of Grain in Kent was to build an orbital railway alongside the M25, which would stretch from the Great Western and have parkway stations where it intersects the main lines radiating out of London. It would have 4 tracks (2 high speed passenger lines and 2 for freight from Thames estuary ports. The whole line plus a new 6 lane motorway would cross the Thames under a new flood defence barrier.

Interesting idea. If that runs alongside the M25, that would imply it'll mostly be in the countryside, which presumably means it wouldn't help local orbital journeys within London very much?

Brilliant idea for integrated planning/transport so obviously will never be built in the UK

You cynic!

 

[34D]

Thinking about this further, I'm not sure it would work. To compete with car and with going into zone 1 and out again, the frequency and connectivity would have to be so good. Would we want Devon trains stopping at Hayes?

 

[Busaholic]

This is a thread to discuss the desirability or otherwise of an Outer London Orbital Route and as such represents a pipedream, if you like, so no-one should get exercised as to how funding for it might be achieved.

The evidence of unmet need has to be largely piecemeal and anecdotal simply because, as far as I am aware, no major research has been done in recent years. For my own part, I'd like to offer the following observations, and my apologies in advance if anybody is offended by references to buses and coaches but my interests in public transport are unconfined.

The Green Line coach business of London Transport flourished after World War 2 providing competition to the railways from the likes of Gravesend, Westerham, Guildford, Ascot, High Wycombe, Hitchin, Luton and Tilbursy into London, mostly Victoria but also Oxford Circus and Aldgate. As petrol rationing came off and mass production of cars commenced the routes, usually halfhourly or hourly, became unreliable, particularly at peak times and a gradual retrenchment started which saw their virtual elimination by the 1970s. By contrast, the orbital route 725 begun in 1953 connected Gravesend and Windsor via Bromley, Croydon, Kingston and Staines and was an instant success, becoming halfhourly between Dartford and Windsor very quickly. A variant, the 726 was later introduced, deviating via Heathrow. Even after doubledeckers were introduced on most routes the 725 and 726 had to make do with singledeckers because of the low bridge at Shortlands near Bromley and I can attest to the good loadings in 1979 when I had a shop at Shortlands. It needs to be said that the fare structure dissuaded all but the rich or desperate from making 'short hop' journeys and that scheduled peak hour extras between Dartford and Croydon were operated into the 1980s.By the 1980s, though, traffic conditions were making disruptions to service more and more regular with consequential loss of passengers and the deathknell to Green Line really came when London Country Bus Services (L.T.'s successor) was split into four at the behest of Nicholas Ridley, M.P. The 726 later became the X26 and was taken on by TfL, initially between Heathrow and Bromley, but later cut back to Croydon and survives today. It is
a halfhourly service (when it went to Bromley it was only hourly, with late running making it liable to a cutback to Croydon) so provides evidence of pent-up demand even before regional shopping centres like Bluewater.

In the 1960s a northern equivalent of the 725, the 724, was introduced between Romford and High Wycombe and mutated into a Harlow to Heathrow via Watford route which survives today. Other orbital routes to the north of London like the 321 Watford to Luton not only survive but have seen growth in passenger numbers despite huge amounts having to be added to running time at peak hours in recent years so the evidence of need is there. Might also add the DLR from Lewisham, the Overground from West Croydon and Crystal Palace all of which saw passenger numbers far in excess of official predictions from the start and continue to grow, despite going nowhere near the West End and, in the case of Overground, only grazing by the City.

I do hope that we can get some good ideas from this thread, perhaps from some Forum members with recent practical experience of the difficulties experienced in trying to do some of these journeys by public transport without coming in to one London terminus and going out again by another.

 

[RichardN]

Interesting idea. If that runs alongside the M25, that would imply it'll mostly be in the countryside, which presumably means it wouldn't help local orbital journeys within London very much?



You cynic!

Give or take the odd reverse at Redhill, The Medway Valley and North Downs line already parallel the M25 within 10 miles or so. You can get as far round as Woking.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking about this further, I'm not sure it would work. To compete with car and with going into zone 1 and out again, the frequency and connectivity would have to be so good. Would we want Devon trains stopping at Hayes?

Is that after the line though Hayes is extended from its currently used state as a branch-line terminal railway station to become a through station on this newly-proposed London Orbital Railway ?

 

[Busaholic]

Is that after the line though Hayes is extended from its currently used state as a branch-line terminal railway station to become a through station on this newly-proposed London Orbital Railway ?

I think Hayes (Kent) may be being confused with Hayes (Middlesex) although of course both have lain within Greater London since the mid '60s!

Incidentally, talk of Hayes (Kent) probably stems from the thread I started on Battersea and Nine Elms alluding to TfL proposals to extend the Bakerloo there.

 

[JamesRowden]

What do people think of the idea of building an outer London Orbital rail line? Do we need one? Would it be successful enough to justify building costs? And where should it go if we had one?

(This discussion originated on the Serving Battersea and Nine Elms thread - it's off topic for that thread so I'm starting this as a new topic).

I live in outer SouthEast London, and I've noticed it's very difficult to make Orbital journeys by rail in this part of the World. Most of the rail provision caters for passengers heading into central London. We're about to get CrossRail, which will make radial journeys even easier, but if you want to travel orbitally, the car is often almost the only option. Given the levels of congestion in London, that seems an absurd situation.

The success of the Overground (despite it having very poor connectivity to other lines in places) has proven that there's a lot of demand for orbital rail travel in zone 2, and for me that begs the question, what if we had something similar further out?

I made the suggestion in the aforementioned other thread of solving this - at least in SE London - by extending the Goblin to Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath town centre/Dartford, and DJL has followed up by suggesting extending as far as Hayes. Putting the ideas together you end up with the following route, which looks to me like it would provide either a good GOBLIN extension in itself, or a good portion of a full Orbital line.

• Barking
• Barking Riverside (new station)
• Thamesmead (new station)
• Abbey Wood
• Brampton Road (new station)
• Bexleyheath
• Bexleyheath Town Centre (new station)
• Bexley
• Foots Cray (new station)
• St Mary Cray
• Petts Wood (I'd suggest Orpington instead)
• Bromley Common
• Hayes

(Obviously there'd be a lot of tunnelling involved to build this.)

What about building:

• Petts Wood - St Mary Cray chord
• Farningham Road - Ebbsfleet International chord
• Ebbsfleet International - Swanscombe chord
• HS1 (to/from country) - Rainham (Essex) grade seperated connection
• Ebbsfleet Extra platforms (if required)

This would allow local ClaphamJunction/Victoria/Blackfriars/CharingX/CannonSt/Orpington-Swanley-Ebbsfleet-CharingX/CannonSt/FenchurchSt/GospelOak services to operate.

 

[Busaholic]

Thinking about this further, I'm not sure it would work. To compete with car and with going into zone 1 and out again, the frequency and connectivity would have to be so good. Would we want Devon trains stopping at Hayes?

Apologies to Paul Sidorcuk, my comments in item 21 were wrongly ascribed to his comments rather than the above.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thinking about this further, I'm not sure it would work. To compete with car and with going into zone 1 and out again, the frequency and connectivity would have to be so good. Would we want Devon trains stopping at Hayes?

Assuming you mean Hayes (Middx), I don't think that would happen. Someone travelling from Devon to - say, Uxbridge or Heathrow Airport probably wouldn't care too much if they have to go into central London and then back out again, because that's a relatively small proportion of their total journey. An orbital railway wouldn't make much difference to those people. For that reason I doubt you'd have long distance trains putting in extra stops to connect with an orbital railway.

On the other hand, for someone travelling from - say - Maidenhead to Uxbridge, the fact that by train you currently have to go into central London and then double back would be a big incentive to use the car instead. Being able to change at - say - Hayes - onto an orbital railway - might well make the difference. The people you'd tempt onto an orbital railway would be people making those kinds of journeys: Somewhere near London to somewhere in outer London, as well as people travelling entirely within London.

So if Hayes was an interchange point, then the trains that would stop there would probably be most of the commuter ones from eg. Reading/Oxford.

You're right that for this to work, orbital line trains would have to be very frequent - at least every 15 minutes. Given population levels in London, I can't see that being a problem. As long as you route the line appropriately, I think you'd easily get enough passengers to justify that kind of frequency. You'd also need to make sure the railway does interchange with most of the radial lines coming out of London.

 

[Clip]

To justify such a scheme it would have to be quicker for a lot of journies to go round the outside rather than into zome 1 and out again.

 

[jopsuk]

I think there's certainly a lot to be said in favour of a freight line taking trains from the Thames ports (north and south of the river) round the north of London to the GWML, connecting to all lines.

Conceptually, a passenger ring round London sort of makes sense. Ideally each interchange would be the terminus of a "Metro" type line, which in a perfect world would be an Underground or Crossrail type line passing through the centre. These should have fully-separate infrastructure.

Further, having several more rings- a fully separate zone 1 Circle, a separated Zone 2/3 North/East/South?West London Line route running as a true circle and a zone 4/5 circle.

Interchanges at each of these should connect not just to the Metro routes, but also Suburban services on the mainlines.

I'd have Intercity trains stop no closer than the limits of main commuter services- places as far out as Peterborough as an example.

 

[MarkyT]

I don't think there's a pressing need for an outer orbital ring with a dedicated circular service pattern. More point to point services that cut a path across a series of radial routes at varying distances from the capital could be very useful however, especially to the north where there are few cross country links surviving beyond the London Overground routes until you get to Peterborough or Leicester, apart from the small branch remnants of Watford - St Albans and Bletchley - Bedford.

Reading to Gatwick is a good existing example of a successful orbital link, already connecting with a number of major nodes on the routes it intersects, and providing some useful journeys opportunities that can save time, cost, and cross London transfer hassle. Proposed service patterns on the East West Rail route should also prove useful in this respect.

Edge London 'superhubs' like Clapham Junction, and the future Old Oak Common also provide a very useful interchange between radial main line routes that converge or cross there. If WCML local services are incorporated into Crossrail, OOC will enable a much easier journey between Slough and Hemel Hempstead for example with one change, saving at least 30 minutes over what is possible today going via Paddington - Circle Line - Euston.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think there's a pressing need for an outer orbital ring with a dedicated circular service pattern. More point to point services that cut a path across a series of radial routes at varying distances from the capital could be very useful however, especially to the north where there are few cross country links surviving beyond the London Overground routes until you get to Peterborough or Leicester, apart from the small branch remnants of Watford - St Albans and Bletchley - Bedford.

Reading to Gatwick is a good existing example of a successful orbital link, already connecting with a number of major nodes on the routes it intersects, and providing some useful journeys opportunities that can save time, cost, and cross London transfer hassle. Proposed service patterns on the East West Rail route should also prove useful in this respect.

Edge London 'superhubs' like Clapham Junction, and the future Old Oak Common also provide a very useful interchange between radial main line routes that converge or cross there. If WCML local services are incorporated into Crossrail, OOC will enable a much easier journey between Slough and Hemel Hempstead for example with one change, saving at least 30 minutes over what is possible today going via Paddington - Circle Line - Euston.

I'm totally in agreement about there being no need of a circular service, even if this was theoretically possible decades into the future. The M25 is used for all manner of car journies, some pretty short, and I would imagine average journey length on an orbital rail route to be considerably less than on the M25.
Watford to St Albans might well be a suitable line to form part of the northern leg, then onwards to somewhere on the East Coast Main Line
(Welwyn Garden City possibly). I think there's a good case for the northern segment to be built north of the Greater London boundary simply because population numbers stack up there in comparison with other areas and also because of the position of the existing lines meaning connectivity between them would be much more useful. The proposed tram/train experiment between St Albans and Watford, extending into the respective city/town centres seems to have been shelved and most public transport between the two seems to be by the rather slow bus: a wasted opportunity if ever there was one. Actually, I would think there's a good case for starting the project in this area, because Crossrail at Abbey Wood might see startling changes in travel patterns from the end of the decade.

.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It seems I wasn't the only one thinking about an outer Orbital line for London... It's included in Boris Johnson's London Infrastructure Plan 2050. And between Barking and Bexleyheath, apparently following basically the same route I was suggesting!

Details and link at http://www.citymetric.com/politics/what-would-londons-new-orbital-rail-link-look

 

[Busaholic]

It seems I wasn't the only one thinking about an outer Orbital line for London... It's included in Boris Johnson's London Infrastructure Plan 2050. And between Barking and Bexleyheath, apparently following basically the same route I was suggesting!

Details and link at http://www.citymetric.com/politics/what-would-londons-new-orbital-rail-link-look

Well done! Glad you started that new thread. Only glanced at it, because I'm basically at work, but at first glance the northern section seems too close to central London and, if using the North London Line adds no capacity to an existing radial route. It needs to be going through places much closer to the M25 like Waltham Cross. Also, on the link you provided, it makes the age-old mistake which drives me mad, thinking that Bexleyheath or Bromley is still in Kent, or Hounslow in Middlesex (a non-existent county) which has not been the case since 1965. Lazy journalism! Still, it is a start and it would be good to cast a critical eye over it.