Does Scotrail have enough spare electric units to run the EK line?

[snowball]

What the thread title says. The electric service to East Kilbride is supposed to start in December 2025. The electrification is on schedule as far I can see. No new trains have been ordered in recent years. If some were ordered tomorrow (not likely as far as I know) they wouldn't be available in time. I have very little idea how fully used the current electric fleet is. There are others on here who will know much better than I do. I imagine about six units are needed (more if some services are more than one unit long).

 

[mcmad]

Believe the plan is to use a mix of diesel and electric units.

 

[Tynwald]

Plenty of 350, and 323 available.

 

[InOban]

AIUI commuter traffic into Glasgow had been static at best even before Covid and hasn't recovered since so there will be spare units.

 

[SC318250]

There is definitely enough capacity off peak with the amount of emus sitting at depots… Peak not so sure.
Possibly with some tweeks to diagrams , could release a few 334 to cover Argyle line and in turn, release a couple of 318/320 units.. might help
Saturday/Sunday there os plenty of capacity

 

[Bikeman78]

Will they be able to use 318/320 or will it have to be 380 or 385?

 

[Kite159]

There must be some 334s available from when Edinburgh - Bathgate - Glasgow was 4tph rather than the post Covid cut to 2tph with some peak time extras

 

[SC318250]

Sorry I meant 318/320 released to cover Inverclyde or Neilston/Newton/Cathcart to free up Class 380 units

 

[fgwrich]

Of course there's still the hovering of the 769s in Brodies...


...Someone had to say it!

 

[Bikeman78]

There must be some 334s available from when Edinburgh - Bathgate - Glasgow was 4tph rather than the post Covid cut to 2tph with some peak time extras

That doesn't help if they are still running four trains per hour in the peaks.

 

[D365]

Of course there's still the hovering of the 769s in Brodies...


...Someone had to say it!

I was waiting for this one!

 

[Geeves]

Yes just to add 769s from Wales have also gone north recently...

 

[Transilien]

The class 350s would be most suitable as ScotRail already run desiro units Would class 350s be able to couple to class 380s for flexibility?

 

[380101]

The class 350s would be most suitable as ScotRail already run desiro units Would class 350s be able to couple to class 380s for flexibility?

No, they are not compatible.

 

[Fincra5]

Scotrail would be better with the Retanus 321s that are still in Store.

 

[cj_1985]

No, they are not compatible.

Mechanically they could probably rescue one another... but No, they definitely could not work, in service, with each other.

IIRC it was explained as bring due to the positioning of the electrical connector box. I want to say the 380 has the box to the side of the coupler rather than above, or below. While the 350/360/444/450 all have them above/below... but that's from memory, and may be remembered incorrectly.

 

[380101]

Mechanically they could probably rescue one another... but No, they definitely could not work, in service, with each other.

IIRC it was explained as bring due to the positioning of the electrical connector box. I want to say the 380 has the box to the side of the coupler rather than above, or below. While the 350/360/444/450 all have them above/below... but that's from memory, and may be remembered incorrectly.

Yeah, mechanical coupling only for rescue purposes. The 380 electrical box is above the delner coupler and below it on the class 350.

 

[Transilien]

Scotrail would be better with the Retanus 321s that are still in Store.

The Class 321 is already over 30 years old it would only be a temporary solution to use them.

 

[John R]

The Class 321 is already over 30 years old it would only be a temporary solution to use them.

Indeed, but as a stop-gap until a new fleet is ordered for delivery towards the end of the decade, that's exactly what they would be.

 

[Carntyne]

318, 320 and 334 are all DOO. Unless the Scottish Government grow a backbone in the next 18 months then it won't be any of those.

 

[Falcon1200]

318, 320 and 334 are all DOO. Unless the Scottish Government grow a backbone in the next 18 months then it won't be any of those.

A good point. Hopefully it won't mean that Scotrail move the 4-car Class 380s from the Neilston to the East Kilbride lines and replace them with 3-car sets.

 

[Peter0124]

A good point. Hopefully it won't mean that Scotrail move the 4-car Class 380s from the Neilston to the East Kilbride lines and replace them with 3-car sets.

What about permanent and self contained 6 car 318/320 sets on Neilston rather than the 380.

 

[Fincra5]

The Class 321 is already over 30 years old it would only be a temporary solution to use them.

Indeed but they had a good overhaul with modifications to traction packages and A/C etc.
Similarities to Crew could lead to a smooth introduction?

 

[Carntyne]

What about permanent and self contained 6 car 318/320 sets on Neilston rather than the 380.

They would be around 20 metres shorter than the peak trains they are replacing. A lovely boost for a very busy route.

Edit: I meant if they ran 6 cars on the East Kilbride route.

 

[hexagon789]

They would be around 20 metres shorter than the peak trains they are replacing. A lovely boost for a very busy route.

Technically though, the 318s/320s have more seating capacity as 3 or 6-car vs 3 or 6-car 380 formations, albeit because they have 2+3 seating.

Also, surely the entire Cathcart District ran with 20m trains for most of its electrified life without that being a problem capacity-wise and the Newtons are still 318/320s.

Is a six-car 318/320 formation replacing a four-car 380 really an issue?

 

[Peter0124]

Technically though, the 318s/320s have more seating capacity as 3 or 6-car vs 3 or 6-car 380 formations, albeit because they have 2+3 seating.

Also, surely the entire Cathcart District ran with 20m trains for most of its electrified life without that being a problem capacity-wise and the Newtons are still 318/320s.

Is a six-car 318/320 formation replacing a four-car 380 really an issue?

They would be around 20 metres shorter than the peak trains they are replacing. A lovely boost for a very busy route.

Edit: I meant if they ran 6 cars on the East Kilbride route.

I don't think 6 car 380s are allowed to Neilston due to the length of the turnback, and Infact they're rarely used on the Circle at all, minus events at Hampden.

A 6 car 318/320 would be better for the Neilston line capacity-wise than the present 4-car 380 operation. You'd only need six units to cover the off-peak diagrams if kept-self contained, the peak extras can be provided with 380s (and to still have driver route knowledge down that way).

The Newtons use 6 car 318/320 operation currently (up till about 4pm), but that is likely to do with the emergency timetable diagramming arrangements, as it used to either be a 3 car one or a 380. 380s takeover in the evening on Newtons.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think 6 car 380s are allowed to Neilston due to the length of the turnback, and Infact they're rarely used on the Circle at all, minus events at Hampden.

I wasn't intending to suggest 6-car 380 formations should be used, that was just a note on how the 318/320s seat more really.

But looking at how the existing fleet can be re-jigged it seems probable that EK will get 380s as per Barrhead but as noted above some peak extras may remain 156(?). Then presumably the easiest way to obtain these 380s, assuming no slack exists is to take them from Cathcart/Neilston and give those routes 318/320s instead.

Either that or Wemyss Bay/Gourock see less 380/385 and get the 318/320s.

This does assume there are no spare 380s that can just be used off the bat no issue, but ISTR the unit for Barrhead was only available because of the cuts in Ayrshire. Many services under the reduced Fit for the Future timetable were already extended, such as Ardrossan and Largs running some 7s off-peak and Wemyss Bay getting 4s and 6s where previously when Gourock and Ayr had 4tph, 2 of those picking up the lesser calls, most off-peak services seemed to always be single 3s or 4s with just the traditional shoulder peak/peak strengthening.

Unless someone can advise whether there are presently sufficient free 380 units for EK as it stands?

 

[snowball]

Not strictly on topic (because it's about diesel units) but this seems as good a place as any to post this.

I'm aware of two Facebook pages which followed the construction of the Levenmouth line, and I''m continuing to read them for a few weeks after the opening. On one of them, one person complained about overcrowding on the route, and another person replied:

Trouble is there are simply no spare diesel trains to strengthen workings. Even getting a single two-car 158 for Leven required Barrhead being electrified, which freed two 156 units for Anniesland, which in turn freed a 170 unit for Fife, which in turn freed a 158 for Leven. There is literally no slack at all bar robbing from the maintenance float; you can do that now and then to strengthen trains for special events etc a few odd times but you cannot do that long-term, you'll just end up with an excess of trains all out of service waiting exams.
I'm afraid it's just the way it is presently. The crew shortages are only adding to the problem as there are less maintenance shifts being covered and less drivers to move units around depot or join/split at stations as well.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is a six-car 318/320 formation replacing a four-car 380 really an issue?

Not at all, but it assumes that there are enough 318/320 sets available to achieve that!

 

[fgwrich]

Although it wouldn’t help the diesel fleet situation, could ScotRail consider taking in a few more 321s converted down to 320s if not just for a few years? Of course everyone wants newer stock but at least additional 320s would create some slack in the electric fleet, and there are a few going spare at the moment with no home yet found.