Doncaster - Leeds Line

[sheff'd victoria]

Ive just had a letter from Metro ( West Yorkshire PTE ) who say that in the near future they are planning to have an every 30 minute local EMU service from Doncaster to Leeds.

I thought the line was full to capacity ?

 

[tbtc]

I thought the line was full to capacity ?

Depends. Using the extra 322 resource they could take the path of the current (Lincoln - Sheffield) Doncaster - Adwick - Doncaster (Sheffield) Pacer service at the southern end of the route (which would avoid the crossover at Adwick).

That doesn't answer the issue of pathing at the busier Leeds end (divert the Sheffield - Dearne Valley - Leeds service via Wakefield Kirkgate?), but it does at least crowbar a mention of "Lincoln" into one of your threads

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Depends. Using the extra 322 resource they could take the path of the current (Lincoln - Sheffield) Doncaster - Adwick - Doncaster (Sheffield) Pacer service at the southern end of the route (which would avoid the crossover at Adwick).

That doesn't answer the issue of pathing at the busier Leeds end (divert the Sheffield - Dearne Valley - Leeds service via Wakefield Kirkgate?), but it does at least crowbar a mention of "Lincoln" into one of your threads

You beat me to it

So this will also explain why South Yorkshire PTE gave £ 18 million pounds to West Yorkshire PTE for the extra 322 units

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting development, did not know that SYPTE had done that.

Does your letter state anywhere what will happen to other local northern services??

tbtc, having spent a lot of time living alongside this line, at the northern end (outwood), with my uncle i think that an extra EMU could easily be fitted in. At the southern end i imagine terminating the northern DMU at Donny will help. I do not think Adwick and Bentley need 3tph to Donny. But do they need one to Sheffield.... Interesting dilema.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Interesting development, did not know that SYPTE had done that.

Does your letter state anywhere what will happen to other local northern services??

tbtc, having spent a lot of time living alongside this line, at the northern end (outwood), with my uncle i think that an extra EMU could easily be fitted in. At the southern end i imagine terminating the northern DMU at Donny will help. I do not think Adwick and Bentley need 3tph to Donny. But do they need one to Sheffield.... Interesting dilema.

My letter to them ( Metro ) was to do with what happends in the next few years when the PTE's want to control more of the services, I did ask about the Penistone Line but for some reason was told about the Doncaster - Leeds local services.

The " cattle truck " unit that go's to Adwick only does so because their is a well used Park and Ride at the station, if the EMU service becomes every 30 mins then the " cattle truck " service can finish at Doncaster or maybe go somewhere else .....like Gainsborough Central ( Snigger )

 

[brompton rail]

My letter to them ( Metro ) was to do with what happends in the next few years when the PTE's want to control more of the services, I did ask about the Penistone Line but for some reason was told about the Doncaster - Leeds local services.

The " cattle truck " unit that go's to Adwick only does so because their is a well used Park and Ride at the station, if the EMU service becomes every 30 mins then the " cattle truck " service can finish at Doncaster or maybe go somewhere else .....like Gainsborough Central ( Snigger )

The "cattle truck" DMU you refer to goes to Adwick because SYPTE want it to do so. It is to provide an hourly service between Adwick, Bentley and Meadowhall and Sheffield . The PTE are unlikely to support its termination at Doncaster.

An all electric service is more likely to come when Doncaster to Sheffield is electrified .... And by then the 322s might be in Booths Scrapyard at Rotherham!

 

[D365]

An all electric service is more likely to come when Doncaster to Sheffield is electrified .... And by then the 322s might be in Booths Scrapyard at Rotherham!

They'll be around for a long time then :P How much of the 321/322 fleet is utilised typically for the current service? Are they still deputised by DMUs sometimes? Do they still cover for 333s, and vice-versa?

 

[tbtc]

tbtc, having spent a lot of time living alongside this line, at the northern end (outwood), with my uncle i think that an extra EMU could easily be fitted in. At the southern end i imagine terminating the northern DMU at Donny will help. I do not think Adwick and Bentley need 3tph to Donny. But do they need one to Sheffield.... Interesting dilema.

At the Outwood end you have:

• Hourly Sheffield stopper - 75MPH DMU
• Hourly Doncaster stopper - 100MPH EMU
• Hourly Sheffield fast (the XC service to Bristol) - 125MPH DEMU
• Half hourly Doncaster fast (the EC service to London) = 125MPH EMU

So five trains an hour, busy but plenty of lines cope with more. The problem is the speed differences - maybe a second 100mph EMU serving Outwood etc would allow the 75mph Sheffield DMUs to be speeded up and create a better spread of services?

Good point about Adwick/ Bentley to Meadowhall/ Sheffield - would our PTE get "protectionist" about improving Leeds links at the expense of Sheffield ones?

 

[YorkshireBear]

At the Outwood end you have:

• Hourly Sheffield stopper - 75MPH DMU
• Hourly Doncaster stopper - 100MPH EMU
• Hourly Sheffield fast (the XC service to Bristol) - 125MPH DEMU
• Half hourly Doncaster fast (the EC service to London) = 125MPH EMU

So five trains an hour, busy but plenty of lines cope with more. The problem is the speed differences - maybe a second 100mph EMU serving Outwood etc would allow the 75mph Sheffield DMUs to be speeded up and create a better spread of services?

Good point about Adwick/ Bentley to Meadowhall/ Sheffield - would our PTE get "protectionist" about improving Leeds links at the expense of Sheffield ones?

Hmm yes, but i think in the future when the Hourly DMU will become EMU it will easily be do-able. I think off peak maybe but peak definitely have the DMU stopping as well. Even off peak i think it will be fine to be honest, the expresses are spaced far enough apart. Make sure the DMU is in the slot between the two EC services that the XC does not run in.

And your second point, yes i think that is exactly what will happen. But again once electrification comes along, EMU Leeds to Sheffield Via Donny all stations for operational simpleness.

 

[bluenoxid]

At the Outwood end you have:

• Hourly Sheffield stopper - 75MPH DMU
• Hourly Doncaster stopper - 100MPH EMU
• Hourly Sheffield fast (the XC service to Bristol) - 125MPH DEMU
• Half hourly Doncaster fast (the EC service to London) = 125MPH EMU

So five trains an hour, busy but plenty of lines cope with more. The problem is the speed differences - maybe a second 100mph EMU serving Outwood etc would allow the 75mph Sheffield DMUs to be speeded up and create a better spread of services?

Good point about Adwick/ Bentley to Meadowhall/ Sheffield - would our PTE get "protectionist" about improving Leeds links at the expense of Sheffield ones?

Probably not for the increased capacity available to users on both routes (Sheffield - Doncaster and Doncaster to Leeds).

The Adwick terminator takes vital space up crossing lines.

However, the route is only a 90mph line IIRC, so speeding up the DMU will make it better. The EMU will improve the acceleration.

 

[johnnychips]

Will eventually replacing the Pacers on the Dearne Valley line via Goldthorpe by 15x diesels lead to any faster acceleration/journey times?

Somebody in jest suggested diverting the current Adwick trains to Gainsborough instead, but I had always thought that there were already too many paths crossing the main line at Doncaster - an argument against Sheff-Donny Airport trains if it ever got much busier. Bit off topic, but why do direct trains from Lincoln (not that there are many) therefore use platform 5 not 2?

EDIT: Oh! think I've worked out why, but I'll wait for any confirmation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Will eventually replacing the Pacers on the Dearne Valley line via Goldthorpe by 15x diesels lead to any faster acceleration/journey times?

Somebody in jest suggested diverting the current Adwick trains to Gainsborough instead, but I had always thought that there were already too many paths crossing the main line at Doncaster - an argument against Sheff-Donny Airport trains if it ever got much busier. Bit off topic, but why do direct trains from Lincoln (not that there are many) therefore use platform 5 not 2?

EDIT: Oh! think I've worked out why, but I'll wait for any confirmation.

Its an ongoing joke (particularly between me tbtc and Sheff'Victoria from the 'State of Rail Travel in Lincolnshire' thread. I don't think it was a genuine suggestion don't worry. Well it depends, put a 150 against a 142 and to be honest there isnt an awful lot of difference! Even a 158 isn't much better without long stretches of high speed running wheres it acceleration beyond 60mph will help it.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The Sheffield-Moorthorpe-Leeds stoppers have actually got slower in recent timetables, some pausing for 10 mins or so in the loop before Fitzwilliam for a fast EC to overtake. Don't think they get looped in the opposite direction.
In the Leeds direction, they leave Sheffield just ahead of the XC via Leeds, which overtakes while the stopper is on the Rotherham loop. I'd guess fitting that stopping service into the busy end of Sheffield means it would be hard to have it leave after the XC and still take up its existing path beyond Moorthorpe.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Its an ongoing joke (particularly between me tbtc and Sheff'Victoria from the 'State of Rail Travel in Lincolnshire' thread. I don't think it was a genuine suggestion don't worry. Well it depends, put a 150 against a 142 and to be honest there isnt an awful lot of difference! Even a 158 isn't much better without long stretches of high speed running wheres it acceleration beyond 60mph will help it.

It was a tongue in cheek comment about " Cattle Truck " services going to Gainsborough via Doncaster instead of Adwick if the EMU service is changed

According to this letter I have from Metro ( West Yorkshire PTE ) they say that the planned 30 minute EMU stopping service from Doncaster to Leeds is part of Railplan7, however their is no internet link on the letter to say what Railplan7 is ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

That plan rings a bell i have seen it during research bear with me.

Here you go.
http://www.wyltp.com/NR/rdonlyres/F02AAC9D-8565-47B3-BE1B-7211B6A24507/0/20121017RailPlan7.pdf

Here is the web page with consultation documents on too http://www.wyltp.com/consultation/railplan7

 

[sheff'd victoria]

That plan rings a bell i have seen it during research bear with me.

Here you go.
http://www.wyltp.com/NR/rdonlyres/F02AAC9D-8565-47B3-BE1B-7211B6A24507/0/20121017RailPlan7.pdf

Here is the web page with consultation documents on too http://www.wyltp.com/consultation/railplan7

Great , thanks for that.

Penistone Line : Increased frequency, how they are going to do that when large parts are single line ?

Wakefield Line (Leeds – Doncaster, Leeds – Sheffield)
Half Hourly local service from Leeds to Doncaster & Sheffield


This has now got me thinking if South Yorkshire PTE have a railplan ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Penistone Line : Increased frequency, how they are going to do that when large parts are single line ?

I think the plan is to add 2 extra loops between Stocksmoor and Huddersfield- presumably at Honley and Lockwood. The line North of Clayton West Junction was only singled in the mid-1980s after the Clayton West branch closed in 1983 anyway. I might be wrong, but I think that there's already slightly more flexibility been added in recent years because my memory was of the line being single as soon as it left the Leeds line at Barnsley- the last time I travelled on that section I noticed that it was double track from the bridge under the Dodworth by-pass. The 2 existing loops could already allow a slightly more intensive service than the present (as the loop at Penistone is only used in the event of a delay and for the weekdays only evening train that runs through from Leeds- most services pass at the extended loop between Stocksmoor and Clayton West Junction) but there'd be very little margin for error in that case!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not a specific RailPlan but there is this page, http://www.sypte.co.uk/corporate.aspx?id=130

This gives wider plans for all Public Transport but (i have no read it) i imagine that it will involve rail somewhere.

It also would not surprise me if SYPTE had a lot to do with the WYPTE RailPlan 7.

Ref. Penistone Line, i think it would require one more passing loop as you say, but track-bed is still there so its not exactly impossible. I don't know how much a passing loop would cost on this line but i imagine the costs would be similar to that recently done down on the *lowestoft* line.

*I think that is right....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ref. Penistone Line, i think it would require one more passing loop as you say, but track-bed is still there so its not exactly impossible. I don't know how much a passing loop would cost on this line but i imagine the costs would be similar to that recently done down on the *lowestoft* line.

*I think that is right....

I'd agree personally that it would seem only one loop would be required, my source for my previous post was something mentioned in RAIL magazine a few months ago that referred to a consultation that suggested 2 loops- presumably to build in a degree of redundancy and allow for recovery, much as the current two loops do. As I mentioned, the line was mostly singled as recently as 1986, though re-doubling throughout would be complicated as for one thing I think the track was slewed in places when it was replaced with CWR, and in any case the section from Penistone to Barnsley was only ever single-track. Additionally, the platform at BBW (re-opened on a new site in 1992) would need relocating to allow double track. It would be nice to think the line could be doubled throughout but it would be expensive and realistically it's never going to happen. Just a shame the Holmfirth branch didn't have a coal mine on it like Clayton West did- if so, it might have survived Beeching!

 

[tbtc]

And your second point, yes i think that is exactly what will happen. But again once electrification comes along, EMU Leeds to Sheffield Via Donny all stations for operational simpleness.

If you remoddeled Doncaster station you could do that (after electrification of the line through Conisborough, of course) - obviously not a route for "end to end" passengers, but there are a lot of places that would want a link to both Leeds and Sheffield

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you remoddeled Doncaster station you could do that (after electrification of the line through Conisborough, of course) - obviously not a route for "end to end" passengers, but there are a lot of places that would want a link to both Leeds and Sheffield

Exactly, operational convenience is just as important sometimes, saves staff units and often platform capacity. Yes re-modelling the North of Doncaster would probably be needed, keep the services from Sheffield and Leeds away from the ECML completely. I actually believe it won't be long till we need more platforms on the west side of the station. Slew one of the freight avoiding lines and put an island in (platform 9&10) i think they will be needed should we wish to increase any local or terminating traffic. So the freight avoiding lines will disappear, the only solution would be to hold them out of the station completely. So using loops to the south and north of the station to keep them out of the way rather than along the station.

 

[Tomnick]

Will eventually replacing the Pacers on the Dearne Valley line via Goldthorpe by 15x diesels lead to any faster acceleration/journey times?

Somebody in jest suggested diverting the current Adwick trains to Gainsborough instead, but I had always thought that there were already too many paths crossing the main line at Doncaster - an argument against Sheff-Donny Airport trains if it ever got much busier. Bit off topic, but why do direct trains from Lincoln (not that there are many) therefore use platform 5 not 2?

EDIT: Oh! think I've worked out why, but I'll wait for any confirmation.

No signalled route, for passenger trains at least, over the Up East Slow, so no route into P2 from the South. I think I've seen a Lincoln train arrive at P3b over the ladder through the middle of the station, then shunt to P2 - all a bit convoluted though!

 

[Ploughman]

Re the Penistone line from Barnsley.
It is Double track from Barnsley Stn Jn at 6m 43c to Summer lane at 5m 72c
Beyond that there is single track over the M1 at 4m 42c through Dodworth to Penistone.
The bridge over the M1 is not suitable for doubling.
Or this was the case when I last walked the track for work prior to a renewal.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I think the plan is to add 2 extra loops between Stocksmoor and Huddersfield- presumably at Honley and Lockwood. The line North of Clayton West Junction was only singled in the mid-1980s after the Clayton West branch closed in 1983 anyway. I might be wrong, but I think that there's already slightly more flexibility been added in recent years because my memory was of the line being single as soon as it left the Leeds line at Barnsley- the last time I travelled on that section I noticed that it was double track from the bridge under the Dodworth by-pass. The 2 existing loops could already allow a slightly more intensive service than the present (as the loop at Penistone is only used in the event of a delay and for the weekdays only evening train that runs through from Leeds- most services pass at the extended loop between Stocksmoor and Clayton West Junction) but there'd be very little margin for error in that case!

I think it would be much better all round if the line was doubled from Dodworth to Huddersfield, all these passing loops sounds like the Waterloo to Exeter line, as for the Doncaster to Leeds EMU services, I am wondering if they will just keep the service as it is or connect it to other local areas that are under the wires like say Bradford , Skipton , Ilkley in future ?

 

[bluenoxid]

I might be playing devils advocate here but would any additional platforms be needed at Donny. I assume that any EMU services would replace existing stopping services on Donny to Sheffield and would swap platforms with other services. Eg P8 gets used by SB units rather than Northbound ECs and XCs. P3 gets used by more London bound services rather than stopping services crossing the station. Could the new platform actually be a northbound facing platform for Hull services?

 

[tbtc]

I might be playing devils advocate here but would any additional platforms be needed at Donny. I assume that any EMU services would replace existing stopping services on Donny to Sheffield and would swap platforms with other services. Eg P8 gets used by SB units rather than Northbound ECs and XCs. P3 gets used by more London bound services rather than stopping services crossing the station. Could the new platform actually be a northbound facing platform for Hull services?

Fair point - I was thinking that a "through" service would make the current bays in the north west of the station redundant, and put additional pressure on the four through platforms, so it may help things to remodel.

But then, if you're going to remodel Donny then there's arguments about grade separation to allow the Sheffield - Hull/ Cleethorpes services avoid crossing the main ECML tracks etc

 

[YorkshireBear]

Fair point - I was thinking that a "through" service would make the current bays in the north west of the station redundant, and put additional pressure on the four through platforms, so it may help things to remodel.

But then, if you're going to remodel Donny then there's arguments about grade separation to allow the Sheffield - Hull/ Cleethorpes services avoid crossing the main ECML tracks etc

I think that might be pushing it a bit :P But see my proposal a few comments up regarding extra through platforms.

I can't see grade separation working due to the amount of bridges in the area... but i will go look on google earth now.

Yep just checked, grade separation you've got no chance!!!!!!

 

[brompton rail]

I think that might be pushing it a bit :P But see my proposal a few comments up regarding extra through platforms.

I can't see grade separation working due to the amount of bridges in the area... but i will go look on google earth now.

Yep just checked, grade separation you've got no chance!!!!!!

I was assured, a few years ago,by a senior Doncaster Council engineer that there was space and height for a track to be added on the west side rising from under North Bridge and next St George's Bridge to cross the River Don and join the avoiding line with an east facing curve. Thus Sheffield - Hull/Cleethorpes passenger train would not need to cross ECML on the flat. However this would put even more pressure on the west side through platforms (4-8). These are the busiest two platforms (4'8).

The plan was therefore feasible but never instigated.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I was assured, a few years ago,by a senior Doncaster Council engineer that there was space and height for a track to be added on the west side rising from under North Bridge and next St George's Bridge to cross the River Don and join the avoiding line with an east facing curve. Thus Sheffield - Hull/Cleethorpes passenger train would not need to cross ECML on the flat. However this would put even more pressure on the west side through platforms (4-8). These are the busiest two platforms (4'8).

The plan was therefore feasible but never instigated.

Id never thought about it like that, well adding P9/10 and then that would probably solve quite a few problems to be honest. however ££££s

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Id never thought about it like that, well adding P9/10 and then that would probably solve quite a few problems to be honest. however ££££s

Have we a date of when these extra platforms are going to be built ?

It is a funny layout at Doncaster, their seems to be too many bay platforms and not enough though platforms