Driving behaviour when emergency vehicles are approaching.

[Brent Goose]

mods note - split from this thread:

Driving well below the speed limit

I’m really grumpy today so forgive this in advance if it touches a nerve. Why do people drive well below the permitted speed limit, even in good conditions, with clear visibility, and no hazards? I’m talking sub 40mph on a 60mph road, or 20mph on a 30mph road. I have mentioned before the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Of course cars with radar adaptive cruise control are unhindered by fog*

Some drivers habit of stopping dead when an emergency vehicle is on blue lights even though they have a clear run going the other way or in a different lane can be tedious

* not to be taken seriously

 

[Bald Rick]

Some drivers habit of stopping dead when an emergency vehicle is in blue lights even though they have a clear run going the other way or in a different lane an can be tedious

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

 

[Ted633]

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

I get your point, but they are doing the correct thing. You can be prosecuted forgoing through a red light, even if it is to let a blue light vehicle through.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

West Yorkshire Police say you’re probably screwed if you do and you’re caught:

If you do cross the stop line at the junction whilst the lights are on red, you will commit the offence of contravening a red traffic light. It's important to remember that in committing the offence (crossing the stop line) the onus will be on you to provide evidence that you did so to allow an emergency vehicle through. That may be considered as mitigation, but there is no guarantee that it will be. If the police decide to prosecute you for the offence and you choose to challenge that decision, it will ultimately be a matter for a court to decide.

 

[bspahh]

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

That is the advice from https://www.bluelightaware.org.uk/

 

[bramling]

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

I won’t pass a red light for emergency services, and there isn’t really an expectation for people to do so. It’s quite possibly you can get prosecuted if there’s camera enforcement.

 

[Krokodil]

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

I recall being specifically warned (probably by my instructor) not to do this. Likewise mounting the pavement etc. to make space was a no-no.

 

[Llanigraham]

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

Had exactly that today. Car stopped on the approach to a railway bridge, with double white lines, so the Police van had to swerve around him. Luckiiy I'd spotted the blues coming towards me earlier, so was able to slow down and let him through

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

The law is quite explicit and you cannot pass the red light even if the blues are behind you, and people have been successfuly prosecuted for doing so. It is why we are now trained to turn off the lights and sirens if approaching a traffic queue at a red traffic light, although we may leave roof lights on if the various lights can be selected.

 

[Harpo]

On passing red lights, it was always stressed in railway rules training that only a police officer could authorise traffic to pass level crossing lights on red.

 

[Brent Goose]

Lleaving aside the likelihood of barriers making that difficult I’m not sure I would want to risk getting hit by a train.

On another forum I have read about a council seeking to exact a penalty charge where a driver dipped into a bus lane to let an emergency vehicle pass. Of course the photographic evidence proffered omitted the pictures which would have shown that happening.

 

[Egg Centric]

The legal position with helping emergency vehicles through on red lights is very clear. So, a lot of the time, is the common sense and moral position. When they collide I will personally opt for the latter. I won't blame anyone for doing the former though

 

[66701GBRF]

On passing red lights, it was always stressed in railway rules training that only a police officer could authorise traffic to pass level crossing lights on red.

I think you need to look at that again. No one, not the Police nor any railway staff, are authorised to let traffic past level crossing lights that are red.

 

[Harpo]

I think you need to look at that again. No one, not the Police nor any railway staff, are authorised to let traffic past level crossing lights that are red.

I don’t need to look at anything again, I am simply stating standard training including my own.

The crossing deck obviously has to be confirmed as safe and clear for road traffic from the railway side.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

I used to be one of those who would carefully get out of the way even if that meant going through a red. But with the advent of cameras - NO, by the time I get the letter I probably would not recall why I did it.

Lleaving aside the likelihood of barriers making that difficult I’m not sure I would want to risk getting hit by a train.

On another forum I have read about a council seeking to exact a penalty charge where a driver dipped into a bus lane to let an emergency vehicle pass. Of course the photographic evidence proffered omitted the pictures which would have shown that happening.

Same here. I will not put one wheel in a bus lane for anyone. I know someone who got fined for having just the left wheels of his car dipping in to the bus lane. After all the emergency service vehicle can always use the bus lane I presume ?.

 

[Bald Rick]

The legal position with helping emergency vehicles through on red lights is very clear. So, a lot of the time, is the common sense and moral position. When they collide I will personally opt for the latter. I won't blame anyone for doing the former though

Thank you all for the legal clarification.

I agree with @Egg Centric

I am safe in the knowledge that I will continue to move (slowly and safely) through a red traffic light (not LX lights) where this enables an emergency services vehicle with blue lights operating to have a quicker journey to or from the emergency they are attending. I would also quite hapily have a day in court in the event that a particularly officious police officer who happened to be there and not en route to the same emergency decided to stop me.

 

[Brent Goose]

Do bear in mind that it will likely be choice between £100 FPN and 3 points or a contested trial risking approximately £750 prosecution costs and a means tested fine, victim surcharge, etc.

 

[43066]

On passing red lights, it was always stressed in railway rules training that only a police officer could authorise traffic to pass level crossing lights on red.

Really!? Your rules training was very different to mine.

Wig wags mean *stop* to all vehicles, including emergency services. A police officer will not have competence to authorise anyone to pass a level crossing at danger.

 

[Harpo]

Really!? Your rules training was very different to mine.

Wig wags mean *stop* to all vehicles, including emergency services. A police officer will not have competence to authorise anyone to pass a level crossing at danger.

Hence my point that it had to be done collaboratively.

As for differences in rules training, I’ll not feign any surprise on that score!

 

[cactustwirly]

I see an unfathomable number of drivers, who when they see blue lights behind them and a clear road ahead, stop in a place that makes it difficult / impossible for the blue light vehicle to pass. Absolute idiots. More than once I have passed stationary vehicles doing this to make better space for the blue lights.

In a similar vein, cars stopped at traffic lights with blue lights behind them, refusing to pass the red light to make soace.

It is a traffic offence to cross the white lines when a red light is showing. Even if there is an emergency vehicle behind you

 

[43066]

Hence my point that it had to be done collaboratively.

Is there something around police authorising traffic over a closed crossing (from another group where I’ve asked the question)? Would only be when closed and authorised by NR though.

Not sure if there’s a specific rule book reference?

As for differences in rules training, I’ll not feign any surprise on that score!

Absolutely mate!

 

[43066]

In answer to the wider thread, I’ve always understood it to mean indicating and pulling over to let them pass when safe. It can be a little odd on national speed limit dual carriageways/motorways where I am proceeding quicker than they are!

What I try to avoid doing is panicking and driving my car onto the pavement endangering pedestrians, driving over a curb wrecking my alloys/tyres, or running a red light and risking a ticket! There’s no need to do so in any case because, at least in my experience, emergency vehicle drivers tend to be adept enough not to get stuck behind a stopped queue approaching red traffic lights - they will proceed wrong direction in the other lane.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would also quite hapily have a day in court in the event that a particularly officious police officer who happened to be there and not en route to the same emergency decided to stop me.

You don’t need to be caught by a copper, just a camera.

I am happy not to oblige and risk being penalised. The law is an ass here, though in most cases emergency vehicles are trained to simply go around the traffic lights if they can.

 

[Egg Centric]

You don’t need to be caught by a copper, just a camera.

I am happy not to oblige and risk being penalised. The law is an ass here, though in most cases emergency vehicles are trained to simply go around the traffic lights if they can.

Quite, but cameras are (currently - there may be rule changes in future) obvious if you know what you're doing. I wouldn't go through one of those. Outside of camera enforcement which probably isn't worth it, it's a "discretion" type thing and if I did actually get fined while I would probably try to get out of it for a bit of fun, if I didn't manage - and I wouldn't expect to tbh - then c'est la vie. But as I say I totally understand the "stick rigidly to the rules" position. By definition it's the correct thing to do!

Although I do have a question** to those who do so - do you ever flash anyone out of anywhere?* Or cross the centre of a mini roundabout unnecessarily?

Slightly expanding the topic and ignoring emergency vehicles, slavish red light adherence by those who are prepared to speed (vast majority of drivers albeit underrepresented here) makes 'intuitive' sense but doesn't make logical sense. It's punished like minor speeding offences and can be in the right circumstances both safe and efficient (just like speeding in the right circumstances can be safe and efficient) but you see very few (ignoring ambler gamblers) people deliberately disregarding red lights. I do find this interesting.


*Ok technically this is just a highway code breach, not a law breach.
**Ok technically this is two questions

ETA: I just remembered an incident where I drove very briefly at 110ish in front of a convoy of police vehicles to clear lane 3. Not only was I not pulled over, but I was given a wave of thanks. Common sense enforcement is very different to systematic enforcement.

 

[Mat17]

Same here. I will not put one wheel in a bus lane for anyone. I know someone who got fined for having just the left wheels of his car dipping in to the bus lane. After all the emergency service vehicle can always use the bus lane I presume ?.

I had this a few years ago. I turned right onto a street, it had two lanes on the opposite side of the road, and two lanes on my side, the left one being a bus lane. An ambulance appeared heading from the other direction. Both lanes on that side of the road were full, but there was little to no traffic heading in my direction. The ambulance came full speed at me, so I stopped. It was clear that the bus lane next to me was totally empty for its full length. I expected the ambulance to go there and then weave in behind me, but no they stopped in front of me and started blowing their horn and instructing me to move into the bus lane to let them pass. In the end I did as they requested, luckily I was not fined. However, I still don't think they should have forced me to do so. Next time I will simply refuse to move.

 

[Brent Goose]

Quite, but cameras are (currently - there may be rule changes in future) obvious if you know what you're doing. I wouldn't go through one of those. Outside of camera enforcement which probably isn't worth it, it's a "discretion" type thing and if I did actually get fined while I would probably try to get out of it for a bit of fun, if I didn't manage - and I wouldn't expect to tbh - then c'est la vie. But as I say I totally understand the "stick rigidly to the rules" position. By definition it's the correct thing to do!

Although I do have a question** to those who do so - do you ever flash anyone out of anywhere?* Or cross the centre of a mini roundabout unnecessarily?

Slightly expanding the topic and ignoring emergency vehicles, slavish red light adherence by those who are prepared to speed (vast majority of drivers albeit underrepresented here) makes 'intuitive' sense but doesn't make logical sense. It's punished like minor speeding offences and can be in the right circumstances both safe and efficient (just like speeding in the right circumstances can be safe and efficient) but you see very few (ignoring ambler gamblers) people deliberately disregarding red lights. I do find this interesting.

As I noted earlier, the system is geared to strongly discourage people arguing their case rather than accepting a course or a FPN. Likely it would collapse if everyone took their case to court. Fortunately with council PCNs the risk is the early payment ’discount’ for taking it to tribunal.

On red lights the temptation is definitely there on pedestrian crossings where the person who pressed the button has long since gone or the lights remain on red long after they have crosse. The many crossings on the road along Brighton sea front are particularly bad in that respect.

 

[birchesgreen]

When i did my driver awareness course after i (accidentally of course) ran red lights a few years ago, several of the others were there because they went through the lights to let an emergency services vehicle past.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

The law is quite explicit and you cannot pass the red light even if the blues are behind you, and people have been successfuly prosecuted for doing so. It is why we are now trained to turn off the lights and sirens if approaching a traffic queue at a red traffic light, although we may leave roof lights on if the various lights can be selected.

Leicestershire Police will turn off their sirens & blue lights if they are stuck behind vehicles at traffic lights, whereas Leicestershire Fire & Rescue and East Midlands Ambulance don't and seem to want to force the vehicles ahead of them to go through red lights. Equally, the police round here are more likely to use the opposite lane at a junction than queue up at lights. I just wish there was a bit a lot more consistency in the training.

As I understand police high speed driving (vicariously) - away from lights - the training is to look for two indications that a road user is aware of the approaching emergency vehicle - for example an indicator and brake lights.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In Epsom at least, the ambulances routinely run on blues only and not twos even at speed along the local roads*... except at junctions when they will turn the sirens on briefly.

They do quieten down when in a queue at traffic lights, but often leave the lights flashing.


*Which could have disastrous consequences as there's a large residence for blind people on one of the major routes towards the local hospital...

 

[Llanigraham]

In Epsom at least, the ambulances routinely run on blues only and not twos even at speed along the local roads*... except at junctions when they will turn the sirens on briefly.

That is quite normal, as the sound can be distracting for the driver, can be a nuisance if you are trying to treat someone in the back and trying to listen for responses or to equipment, and if left on for too long can just become another noise to other traffic. It is also why most response vehicles now have 2 different types of sound; the nee-naw and the squack. In traffic and especially in urban areas the squack can be more effective.

 

[DerekC]

Having ridden lots of London buses, i noticed that the drivers always behave in the same way if a blue light vehicle comes up behind them. They simply pull over to the kerb and stop, leaving it up to the emergency vehicle to weave its way past. I guess that's what they are trained to do. That's what I do too, although you do sometimes have to keep going to find the right place - for example don't expect an ambulance to pass you on a blind bend because it won't.

BTW - one thing that really annoys me is when I pull over to let an ambulance past and some prat in a car or on a bike is following close behind it to get past the traffic.