Durham Coast + Horden/Peterlee - time for a revamp?

[70014IronDuke]

So Horden-Peterlee is going to get a new station. About time too, IMO. Population of Horden+Peterlee is around 30,000.

But as someone there noted on this thread
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=151270
the service on the Durham Coast line is only hourly. It is also poor in terms of early morning or late evening trains.

The Tyne-Wear metro section excepted (and ignoring the handful of GC trains to London KX) I wonder if it has changed much since first generation DMUs were first introduced c 1957?

Currently, the first train on weekday southbound from Seaham (popn 20,000) and Hartlepool (popn 93,000) is 07.30/07.50 respectively.

Last train ex Newcastle in the evening is the 21.18.

In the down direction, first train north starts from Hartlepool at 07.03, with the first arrival from Middlesbrough at 07.26.

Last train of the day is the 21.10 ex Boro.

And speeds are hardly exciting. Overall journey times from Boro to Newcastle via Sunderland come in at around 82 minutes for the 47.25 miles – an average speed of 36.3 mph. And putting in the Horden stop won't improve these schedules.

What could be done to develop the line? Are there paths north of Sunderland for 2 tph (if stock could be found, that is)? Could the line speeds be increased at an affordable cost?

In bygone days, BR used to run some Leeds trains this way. Would it be realistic to hope for some TPE trains to be routed via the Coast at some stage, say to Manchester Airport, just to give some through trains each day beyond the locals to Middlesbrough/Nunthorpe?

 

[Ze Random One]

Later trains along the Durham coast line are a franchise commitment from ARN. I don't think you'll see additional frequency, as I believe the Northern Connect commitment is for the new express service to go via Stillington.
However, Grand Central have apparently been asking about rights to stop at Horden too.
http://www.necoastliners.co.uk/2017/06/

 

[lejog]

There Northern Connect service via Stillington is a preference rather than a commitment, it is subject to the availabilty of ECML paths. As the link you provide says:

Study of timetable paths for Middlesbrough-Durham-Newcastle-Carlisle Northern Connect service delayed to October this year; expected to be operated by 4-car 158s

 

[thenorthern]

I think I read Peterlee is the largest town that has an open railway line running through it but it doesn't have a station so a new station would be useful.

Passenger numbers on the line will no doubt increase if a new station opens so more trains may happen at the same time.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There Northern Connect service via Stillington is a preference rather than a commitment, it is subject to the availabilty of ECML paths. As the link you provide says:

I think it would be great to have a Northern Connect services via Stillington. But that would serve Middlesbrough and surrounds (and perhaps Thornaby and Stockton - if they stop) with fast trains to Durham/Newcastle and then Carlisle.

It's my belief that before you know it, that service will attract a whole new bunch of passengers. (well, ok, it may take a year or two).

But it does nothing for Hartlepool etc, if only leaves the Durham Coast proper, including Horden-Peterlee, as more of a Cinderella 1 TPH service.

 

[xotGD]

I think it would be great to have a Northern Connect services via Stillington. But that would serve Middlesbrough and surrounds (and perhaps Thornaby and Stockton - if they stop) with fast trains to Durham/Newcastle and then Carlisle.

It's my belief that before you know it, that service will attract a whole new bunch of passengers. (well, ok, it may take a year or two).

But it does nothing for Hartlepool etc, if only leaves the Durham Coast proper, including Horden-Peterlee, as more of a Cinderella 1 TPH service.

If the coast had 1 tph Newcastle-Boro and 1 tph Newcastle-Darlo, then in combination with the new service via Durham to Boro that would be a much improved service for the whole of the north east.

 

[Tomnot27]

Running the services from Darlington to Hartlepool, Horden and Sunderland would be useful for connection to the rest of the U.K., Not just London from the Durham Coast.

It would have to work around crossing the ECML at Darlington so is it arrived at xx:30 and departed at xx:45 it would give a near half hourly service from Stockton to Sunderland. However it would be close to the next Middlesbrough train in less than 10 minutes later

 

[gordonthemoron]

before privatisation, there used to be an hourly service from Darlo to Hartlepool

 

[Tomnot27]

before privatisation, there used to be an hourly service from Darlo to Hartlepool

IT runs on a Sunday once still serving Teeside Airport

 

[eastwestdivide]

From the 1978-79 timetable, the basic off-peak service in Table 41 was:
hourly Darlington-Hartlepool
hourly Middlesborough-Hartlepool-Sunderland and fast from there to Newcastle
half-hourly stopping train Sunderland-Newcastle (pre-dating the T+W Metro)
(also a half-hourly service Darlington-Saltburn)

Even Tees-side Airport had two trains an hour: one of the Darlington-Saltburns, plus the Darlington-Hartlepool.

 

[xotGD]

From the 1978-79 timetable, the basic off-peak service in Table 41 was:
hourly Darlington-Hartlepool
hourly Middlesborough-Hartlepool-Sunderland and fast from there to Newcastle
half-hourly stopping train Sunderland-Newcastle (pre-dating the T+W Metro)
(also a half-hourly service Darlington-Saltburn)

Even Tees-side Airport had two trains an hour: one of the Darlington-Saltburns, plus the Darlington-Hartlepool.

Plus the 1N03/1N04 Newcastle - Darlington sleeper portions via the coast:

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/10_7-5-79.htm

 

[70014IronDuke]

From the 1978-79 timetable, the basic off-peak service in Table 41 was:
hourly Darlington-Hartlepool
hourly Middlesborough-Hartlepool-Sunderland and fast from there to Newcastle
half-hourly stopping train Sunderland-Newcastle (pre-dating the T+W Metro)
(also a half-hourly service Darlington-Saltburn)

Even Tees-side Airport had two trains an hour: one of the Darlington-Saltburns, plus the Darlington-Hartlepool.

Thanks for looking that up. I DID think it had two trains per hour down the coast - but I thought the second train was a Hartelpool - Newcastle service.

Whatever, the Durham coast line south of Sunderland has suffered a significant loss of service by losing those Pools - Darlington trains. Surprising, considering the general growth in traffic and services in the past two decades. Maybe local governments are just not rail-orientated.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I always do put forward the Durham Coast line as generally the most under-served in the country. Given all of the increases elsewhere in its remit, I am very surprised the new Northern franchise didn't stipulate 2tph for Hartlepool. Population nearing 100,000, 638,000 rail passengers per annum and one train per hour plus whatever Grand Central offer, whilst lying on a railway line between two conurbations of 175,000; and one of the biggest cities in the country just a bit further up the road.

 

[tbtc]

Whatever, the Durham coast line south of Sunderland has suffered a significant loss of service by losing those Pools - Darlington trains. Surprising, considering the general growth in traffic and services in the past two decades. Maybe local governments are just not rail-orientated.

Possibly the problem is that local government has been very rail-oriented BUT that the Tyne & Wear boundaries mean that things have determined where that money is spent.

So Newcastle to Sunderland has always been relatively frequent (four heavy rail trains per hour in older days, now one heavy rail service plus five light rail), but that improvement to local stations between Newcastle and Sunderland (with the half hourly "stopper" replaced by a much more frequent Metro service) comes at the expense of much opportunity to improve things south of Sunderland.

For example, the money was temporarily found a few years ago for Sunderland - Hartlepool to go up to half hourly, and there were Newcastle - Sunderland services that could be extended there. But now, with those services from Tyneside to Wearside running through to Hylton, there's nothing to tag on to.

A shame that no money was found for improvements around Hartlepool (whether to Darlington, to Sunderland or to Middlesbrough), considering that a lot of the new Northern franchise is about improvements to "fringe" areas (e.g. Skipton to Lancaster, the Whitby branch, the Barrow line, geographically distant areas like Lincolnshire, Cheshire and Nottinghamshire).

I suppose there's possibly a side-effect of dumping freight away from the busy main line meaning that it becomes harder to path more passenger services on the secondary line, but that's supposition - any attempt to remove freight from the Durham line will eat into paths through Hartlepool/Sunderland that could be used for passenger services I guess.

I always do put forward the Durham Coast line as generally the most under-served in the country. Given all of the increases elsewhere in its remit, I am very surprised the new Northern franchise didn't stipulate 2tph for Hartlepool. Population nearing 100,000, 638,000 rail passengers per annum and one train per hour plus whatever Grand Central offer, whilst lying on a railway line between two conurbations of 175,000; and one of the biggest cities in the country just a bit further up the road.

Agreed - horribly under-served.

At the millennium, Sunderland/ Hartlepool had through services to York (Northern Spirit 156s, avoiding Middlesbrough), there were bi-hourly TPE-branded services from Sunderland to Leeds/Manchester via Durham (I think "Transpennine" services used to run through Hartlepool but forget when that started). Darlington to Hartlepool was every couple of hours on a Sunday.

Since TOCs can't take credit for Open Access, this is one corner of the country where the franchised services are worse today than in 2000. At least a station near Peterlee is now on the agenda but compare the passenger frequency through Hartlepool to that through Durham:

Durham line around 2000 IIRC:

• XC - hourly (most of which didn't run beyond Newcastle, other than three placing journeys a day since the HSTs lived at Craigentinny, kind of similar to EMT's current Leeds service)
• TPE - bi-hourly with gaps, not running north of Newcastle
• GNER - up to half hourly but often only hourly north of Newcastle)

Durham line in a few years time:

• XC - half hourly (half of which run to Edinburgh)
• TPE - half hourly (half of which will run to Edinburgh)
• VTEC - at least half hourly (Sunderland extras as well as the half hourly Scottish services?)
• First - proposals for regular services on the Durham route from London to Edinburgh - non-stop through County Durham but still an example of increased frequency

...so if I lived on the Durham Coast I'd maybe feel a bit put-out at the regression of that line compared to the significant increases in numbers of passenger services on the line through Durham City.

BUT, like a lot of things on the Provincial railway, if improvements aren't promised as part of a new franchise then you can probably forget about improvements happening before the next franchise is announced.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What could be done to develop the line? Are there paths north of Sunderland for 2 tph (if stock could be found, that is)? Could the line speeds be increased at an affordable cost?

There used to be 2tph from Newcastle to Hartlepool. It was cut back to Sunderland as it mostly carted fresh air about and then it was scrapped entirely when Nexus stopped paying for it.

At the millennium, Sunderland/ Hartlepool had through services to York (Northern Spirit 156s, avoiding Middlesbrough), there were bi-hourly TPE-branded services from Sunderland to Leeds/Manchester via Durham (I think "Transpennine" services used to run through Hartlepool but forget when that started). Darlington to Hartlepool was every couple of hours on a Sunday.

The through trains didn't miss out Middlesbrough, they reversed at Middlesbrough, and as often as not they were a 142. They ran more as an operational convenience, linking together the Carlisle-Newcastle-Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough-York trains (TPE only ran every two hours from Boro back then), than anything else. There were a couple of late evening trains that were a TPE train with a trip up the Durham Coast to Heaton tagged on in service. Nothing was really done for anything other than operational convenience.

Yes, TPE did run from Newcastle to Sunderland, and they stopped when the 185s came in because they mostly carted fresh air about anyway. On a Sunday some of them went to the MetroCentre in service instead.

 

[DarloRich]

not sure my views on Hartleppoh would be welcome...............

What is needed is review of where people go and at what times and build the service around that demand. Is there really a big commuter market out of the likes of Hartlepooh? Really? I assume most of you have never visited the place!

Plus the 1N03/1N04 Newcastle - Darlington sleeper portions via the coast:

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/10_7-5-79.htm

not sure that stopped at Darlo international Airport mind

 

[glbotu]

The main problem with any upgrades to the Durham Coast line is paths from Sunderland to Newcastle (and specifically at Sunderland), which are all eaten by the Tyne and Wear Metro.

Without re-opening 2 platforms at Sunderland, you just couldn't fit the trains in anyway, even if reversing at Sunderland.

 

[ainsworth74]

What is needed is review of where people go and at what times and build the service around that demand. Is there really a big commuter market out of the likes of Hartlepooh? Really? I assume most of you have never visited the place!

Perhaps not but it still managed an annual usage of well over half a million in 2015/16 despite having a woeful service (comparatively). That would suggest that there is some demand for rail.

 

[70014IronDuke]

not sure my views on Hartleppoh would be welcome...............

What is needed is review of where people go and at what times and build the service around that demand. Is there really a big commuter market out of the likes of Hartlepooh? Really? I assume most of you have never visited the place! ...

Kaiser Wilhelm knew the importance of Hartlepool. He sent a Zeppelin to bomb the place. Hartlepool has produced Andy Capp, Flo and a dead monkey.
Now, Darlo has produced ... ?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I always do put forward the Durham Coast line as generally the most under-served in the country. Given all of the increases elsewhere in its remit, I am very surprised the new Northern franchise didn't stipulate 2tph for Hartlepool. Population nearing 100,000, 638,000 rail passengers per annum and one train per hour plus whatever Grand Central offer, ....

Do locals actually use the GC trains - between Sunderland and Eaglescliffe, I mean?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do locals actually use the GC trains - between Sunderland and Eaglescliffe, I mean?

I believe there is a flow but I do not believe it to be large. Whenever I have used Eaglescliffe to go north to Sunderland I have usually been one of only a handful of passengers (and on one occasion the only passenger!).

Paul Duck maybe able to advise better on people using GC for local journeys.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The main problem with any upgrades to the Durham Coast line is paths from Sunderland to Newcastle (and specifically at Sunderland), which are all eaten by the Tyne and Wear Metro.

There are 2tph Newcastle-Sunderland long after Metro opened to Wearside. Fitting the trains in won't be a problem. It's who pays for it: the second train was withdrawn when Nexus stopped paying for it. That indicates a lack of demand.

 

[Paul Duck]

I believe there is a flow but I do not believe it to be large. Whenever I have used Eaglescliffe to go north to Sunderland I have usually been one of only a handful of passengers (and on one occasion the only passenger!).

Paul Duck maybe able to advise better on people using GC for local journeys.

The 1st South Bound Grand Central at Eaglescliffe Monday to Fridays (0730 arrival) usually sees 10-15 passengers off every morning. 2-3 depart the station, the others are split evenly between heading to Middlesbrough and Darlington. The 1st Grand Central is the earliest way to get from Sunderland & Hartlepool to Middlesbrough or Darlington. The passengers heading towards Middlesbrough are mainly going to South Bank from Hartlepool for work in the industries around there. I know this because if the Grand Central guard has not got round to selling them tickets they all come and see me, mainly for returns from Hartlepool to South Bank.
In May 2018 this will probably come to an end in terms of seeing passengers changing at Eaglescliffe early morning as Northern will be introducing an earlier than Grand Central service from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough and a commuter train from Hartlepool to Redcar Central.

I imagine they all change at Thornaby & Middlesbrough on the return leg due to better evening service for them heading home. I don't see many changing at Eaglescliffe for the return Grand Centrals apart from the 2 or 3 who are actually travelling to Eaglescliffe from Hartlepool and Sunderland, usually on the 1542 heading North on a Friday when they get and early finish at work.

 

[ainsworth74]

Many thanks, I knew you'd be able to help out

 

[DarloRich]

Do the numbers mentioned above justify a better service of the type suggested by several posters? We also need to work out who pays for the services. That better services are need isnt in doubt. I just urge that we produce services that actually fit a need or can generate sufficient traffic to justify them not ones that look nice on paper or suit a deisre for uniformity. It is worth pointing out for the benefit of off comers that employment opportunities in this part of the north east are even worse than the general north east outlook.

my personal view is that the services need to be focused on Middlebsrough and Newcastle rather than Darlo. Connections with ECML services can be made at Boro. I think to run to Darlo takes away paths on the coast and creates timetable conflict at Darlo that can be avoided. I am sure the focus should be Middlesbrough.

Kaiser Wilhelm knew the importance of Hartlepool. He sent a Zeppelin to bomb the place. Hartlepool has produced Andy Capp, Flo and a dead monkey.
Now, Darlo has produced ... ?

It wasn't a dead monkey. It was a murdered monkey. Actually it was a judicial killing but I doubt the monkey had capacity to offer a defence.

It also appears the kaiser had no love for Hartlepooh as he sent his fleet to bombard it ( and Whitby & Scarborough) in an effort to draw out the royal navy.

As for Darlo we haven't offered much to the world. Except railways. and bridges. Oh and also the only man ever disqualified in an F1 race for going too slowly! Although perhaps my favorite is Giuseppe ( born Joseph) Wilson who played for Lazio and Italy at the 1974 world cup.

 

[s'land]

The OP asked about any idea's about improving the line speed on the Durham Coast Line, has no one any suggestions?

 

[Darandio]

Now, Darlo has produced ... ?

You are asking that? On a railway forum? hock:

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The OP asked about any idea's about improving the line speed on the Durham Coast Line, has no one any suggestions?

I don't have line speed suggestions, although raising to some extent must be doable. Also reinstating the second platform at Hartlepool is an obvious one

I've been looking at the May 2018 timetables today (top secret and that) and what I would say is that while it's still hourly, the line will get a much better evening/night service, at least from Newcastle. I hadn't quite realised just how bad it was

The Northern Connect route is still undecided. Yes, Stilington is the preference but it needs upgrading, would increase calls for Ferryhill to be reopened, and would annoy Sunderland in leaving them off the Northern Connect map when we claim that it's supposed to link all the northern towns over 85,000 (even though we do have a disclaimer for that). Added to that, the 158s aren't quick enough for the ECML in its current/future congested state, which also rules out taking it via Darlington, and new trains in the North East region would need Heaton to be upgraded

The downside is the Durham Coast line is very slow and indirect, and the whole point of the Middlesbrough-Newcastle section is to get people directly between those two places quickly - it's aimed at car users. It would also probably mean having to upgrade one or two of the stations to Northern Connect standard. But it looks the most likely scenario at the moment. So at least there's that

 

[DaveHarries]

So Horden-Peterlee is going to get a new station.

Hmm... Not imune to the occasional funny station code either. Poole has the station code POO so what odds Peterlee could have .....?

Dave

 

[70014IronDuke]

The 1st South Bound Grand Central at Eaglescliffe Monday to Fridays (0730 arrival) usually sees 10-15 passengers off every morning. 2-3 depart the station, the others are split evenly between heading to Middlesbrough and Darlington. The 1st Grand Central is the earliest way to get from Sunderland & Hartlepool to Middlesbrough or Darlington. The passengers heading towards Middlesbrough are mainly going to South Bank from Hartlepool for work in the industries around there. I know this because if the Grand Central guard has not got round to selling them tickets they all come and see me, mainly for returns from Hartlepool to South Bank.
In May 2018 this will probably come to an end in terms of seeing passengers changing at Eaglescliffe early morning as Northern will be introducing an earlier than Grand Central service from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough and a commuter train from Hartlepool to Redcar Central.

I imagine they all change at Thornaby & Middlesbrough on the return leg due to better evening service for them heading home. I don't see many changing at Eaglescliffe for the return Grand Centrals apart from the 2 or 3 who are actually travelling to Eaglescliffe from Hartlepool and Sunderland, usually on the 1542 heading North on a Friday when they get and early finish at work.

Interesting. Thanks.