Cheshire Bus News (was East Cheshire Bus News)

[peters]

Two unrelated updates:

1. Normally Cheshire East bus services operate to a weekday timetable for the 3 working days between Boxing Day and New Year, this year most services will instead operate to a Saturday timetable.

2. Cheshire East are currently undertaking a survey on transport proposals. Details can be found below

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Local Transport and Car Parking Engagement 2020

This is the Engagement Hub for Cheshire East Council's Corporate Plan Consultation. View our Corporate Plan here, and let us know what you think.

www.cheshireeast.gov.uk

Bus proposals include:
- Improve bus connectivity to Manchester Airport, Jodrell Bank, Tatton Park and Alderley Park.
- Assess the feasibility of providing a bus service from High Legh to Altrincham encompassing neighbouring Agden Brow and Little Bollington.
- Improved bus connections from Knutsford to Altrincham, Chelford, Macclesfield and Warrington.
- Working to restore bus services in Macclesfield which they say was one of the best connected places in the borough. In particular improved services to the Tytherington Business Park, Hurdsfield Industrial Estate and the hospital.
- Offering Flexilink services in rural parts of Macclesfield in the evenings and expanding Flexilink in Crewe.
- Improved connections between trains and buses including better service from Crewe station to Crewe town centre.
- Look at buses serving Grand Junction Retail Park.
- Improve bus connectivity for Middlewich services to allow journeys to Warrington, Knutsford and the Potteries. (Note they don't actually say they are proposing direct services, just ensuring it's possible to reach those places using public transport.)
- Connect Poynton with Disley and Woodley.
- Working with TfGM on Bus Rapid Transit schemes which could benefit Handforth and Poynton.

The survey closes on 31 January 2021.
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[MalaiseForever]

Two unrelated updates:

1. Normally Cheshire East bus services operate to a weekday timetable for the 3 working days between Boxing Day and New Year, this year most services will instead operate to a Saturday timetable.

2. Cheshire East are currently undertaking a survey on transport proposals. Details can be found below

************************************************************************************************

Local Transport and Car Parking Engagement 2020

This is the Engagement Hub for Cheshire East Council's Corporate Plan Consultation. View our Corporate Plan here, and let us know what you think.

www.cheshireeast.gov.uk

Bus proposals include:
- Improve bus connectivity to Manchester Airport, Jodrell Bank, Tatton Park and Alderley Park.
- Assess the feasibility of providing a bus service from High Legh to Altrincham encompassing neighbouring Agden Brow and Little Bollington.
- Improved bus connections from Knutsford to Altrincham, Chelford, Macclesfield and Warrington.
- Working to restore bus services in Macclesfield which they say was one of the best connected places in the borough. In particular improved services to the Tytherington Business Park, Hurdsfield Industrial Estate and the hospital.
- Offering Flexilink services in rural parts of Macclesfield in the evenings and expanding Flexilink in Crewe.
- Improved connections between trains and buses including better service from Crewe station to Crewe town centre.
- Look at buses serving Grand Junction Retail Park.
- Improve bus connectivity for Middlewich services to allow journeys to Warrington, Knutsford and the Potteries. (Note they don't actually say they are proposing direct services, just ensuring it's possible to reach those places using public transport.)
- Connect Poynton with Disley and Woodley.
- Working with TfGM on Bus Rapid Transit schemes which could benefit Handforth and Poynton.

The survey closes on 31 January 2021.
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Thanks for sharing this

 

[Llandudno]

Sounds like a great idea, have they any money to put any of the suggestions/plans into action though, or is this something to keep the council transport department office staff employed?

Is there a local election in the Spring?

 

[peters]

Sounds like a great idea, have they any money to put any of the suggestions/plans into action though, or is this something to keep the council transport department office staff employed?

Is there a local election in the Spring?

No, next election is 2023 but the current administration (Labour + Independent coalition) did promise to review the state the previous (Conservative) administration left the bus network in at the last election. Some of the proposals are obviously long term aspirations and the short term goal is to look in to the feasibility or to work alongside another body (like TfGM) on a plan.

How ambitious some of the proposals are is open to interpretation. For instance, my understanding of the current Knutsford to Warrington service is a bus + driver does the following Mon-Fri only:
- AM contract to Lymm High School
- Lymm to Knutsford service
- Knutsford to Warrington service
- Warrington to High Legh service
- High Legh to Warrington service
- Warrington to Knutsford service
- Knutsford to Lymm service
- PM contract from Lymm High School

So what is an improved service?
Is it simply extending the High Legh services to Knutsford?
Is it adding in a peak time service to/from Warrington that would be useful for commuters, in addition to the current services?
Is it replacing the current service with a service running to a regular pattern?
Is it the addition of a Saturday service?

Any of those four could represent an improved service but some are better than others.

 

[markymark2000]

Sounds like a great idea, have they any money to put any of the suggestions/plans into action though, or is this something to keep the council transport department office staff employed?

Is there a local election in the Spring?

Highlighted the answer.

It's worth noting that in amongst the bus improvements, there are a lot of plans for new outer ring roads (which as we know, more roads creates more traffic since the current congestion acts as a deterrent to drivers). Quite a few of bus links are simply bringing back the routes which were cut a few years ago in the last review. Others are pie in the sky (like linking Middlewich to Warrington).
Other improvements are for things which they have no control over and are sticking their beak in just because they can (train station improvements, 2tph mid cheshire line) and a lot of regular announcements which often lead to no action (Mid Cheshire Line to Airport services and Metrolink to Knutsford).

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think there needs to be at least 1 more service to Knutsford and Saturday service.

 

[peters]

Others are pie in the sky (like linking Middlewich to Warrington).

They don't actually say a direct service between Middlewich and Warrington though, so proposing a Middlewich to Northwich service is joined on to the existing Northwich to Warrington service would fulfill that requirement, or even easier a bus from Middlewich to Crewe station, which connects well with the train to Warrington.

 

[markymark2000]

They don't actually say a direct service between Middlewich and Warrington though, so proposing a Middlewich to Northwich service is joined on to the existing Northwich to Warrington service would fulfill that requirement, or even easier a bus from Middlewich to Crewe station, which connects well with the train to Warrington.

It was implied for direct services otherwise why mention these areas which have no proven demand. There is no significant commuter flow and nor is there a huge leisure flow.

 

[peters]

I think there needs to be at least 1 more service to Knutsford and Saturday service.

One additional service would mean it would also be possible for someone in Knutsford to go to Lymm for a sensible amount of time. 4 hours is excessive in a small place like Lymm, even if you do the Lymm Heritage Trail walk and then have a pub lunch afterwards. It would also allow someone in Lymm, High Legh or Mere to get a bus to Knutsford without having to wait 5 hours for the bus back.

It was implied for direct services otherwise why mention these areas which have no proven demand. There is no significant commuter flow and nor is there a huge leisure flow.

At one point the council was adamant there was no need for a bus from Holmes Chapel to Knutsford as there's a train between Chelford and Holmes Chapel and a bus between Knutsford and Chelford (which was hourly at the time.)

Given the current unemployment situation it's sensible to look at improving links between Cheshire East and Warrington as while there's a lot of job vacancies in Warrington and a lot of people living in Warrington looking for jobs, some of those people living in Warrington will be the ideal fit for Cheshire East businesses and some of those living in Cheshire East will be the ideal fit for Warrington businesses.

 

[jfollows]

Given the current unemployment situation it's sensible to look at improving links between Cheshire East and Warrington as while there's a lot of job vacancies in Warrington and a lot of people living in Warrington looking for jobs, some of those people living in Warrington will be the ideal fit for Cheshire East businesses and some of those living in Cheshire East will be the ideal fit for Warrington businesses.

I worked 2008-2015 in S Warrington and lived in Cheshire East, but there was no way that public transport was a possibility. So your point resonates with me. The rail alternative isn't good either - the one time I went by train I left home 07:00 and got to work 09:30. (Driving took less than 30 minutes) Admittedly I didn't work in central Warrington which would have been a longer drive and a shorter train journey.

 

[markymark2000]

I worked 2008-2015 in S Warrington and lived in Cheshire East, but there was no way that public transport was a possibility. So your point resonates with me. The rail alternative isn't good either - the one time I went by train I left home 07:00 and got to work 09:30. (Driving took less than 30 minutes) Admittedly I didn't work in central Warrington which would have been a longer drive and a shorter train journey.

There are a few people making the journey but not many and certainly not enough to support buses.

 

[peters]

There are a few people making the journey but not many and certainly not enough to support buses.

But not having buses could result in keeping the unemployment figure high. There are also options for extending/reworking existing Warrington services to extend to Cheshire East, it just needs the two councils to work together.

If it didn't already exist you'd probably say there's no point in the 85 route as there's other buses between Nantwich & Crewe and there's no enough demand for services through to Keele & Hanley but that service seems to work.

One thing that was obvious with the last bus review (and the one before that) is Crewe didn't do too badly compared to North East Cheshire. It doesn't need to stay that way.

 

[markymark2000]

But not having buses could result in keeping the unemployment figure high. There are also options for extending/reworking existing Warrington services to extend to Cheshire East, it just needs the two councils to work together.

If it didn't already exist you'd probably say there's no point in the 85 route as there's other buses between Nantwich & Crewe and there's no enough demand for services through to Keele & Hanley but that service seems to work.

One thing that was obvious with the last bus review (and the one before that) is Crewe didn't do too badly compared to North East Cheshire. It doesn't need to stay that way.

85 makes sense because it takes a completely different route to the other buses on the corridors. Keele to Newcastle is covered but that isn't the primary use for the service, it runs for students heading to Crewe. The 85 is a long route though which not much through usage and so It could be split up operational convenience means it's a through route.

Middlewich to Warrington is completely different though and there would be minimal through traffic there. Middlewich to Northwich works. The 9/9A don't seem to do amazing and so I can't see much being done to help them out. The 9/9A make most of the money off schools and through deminims funding. Not many passengers though and I can't see the bus extending to Middlewich doing anything to improve the patronage on the existing service. You will be unlikely to stimulate any passengers on WOB services as the fares are astronomical. It's cheaper to get a taxi most of the time.

You can keep unemployment high with a lack of bus links but the links from here to Warrington are unlikely to massively help that compared to improved services to Winsford Industrial Estate, Crewe or Macclesfield (areas which if you look at the travel to work census thing that they put on the consultation, you would see that these are areas already with significant commuter flows in cars and so it proves people are willing to travel to these towns for work, by introducing buses to areas where people already work, you are more likely to get usage than random pie in the sky routes which you are introducing and are unlikely to be used for 2 years while people start looking for jobs in these areas which are served by the new buses).

 

[Contains Nuts]

If it didn't already exist you'd probably say there's no point in the 85 route as there's other buses between Nantwich & Crewe and there's no enough demand for services through to Keele & Hanley but that service seems to work.

Given that a Nantwich and Crewe to Newcastle route has existed for 100 years and is relatively unchanged I think it’s evident that there is plenty of demand for a service along that route.

Crewe Station to Keele is an important link which is used by hundreds of students a week under normal circumstances and Madeley to Newcastle is also a busy section.

Demand for travel to and from Newcastle has been steadily increasing in recent years as passengers see it as a ‘quieter’ alternative to Hanley and there is a decent choice of shops. There also doesn’t seem to be as many issues related to antisocial behaviour as there are in Hanley or late.

And I agree that there is the 84 between Crewe and Nantwich which provides a decent level of service but that’s not much use unless you either live along that route or want to travel from end to end. The 85 covers a large part of the town that has lower car ownership than most other areas of Crewe and therefore provides a decent link to three shopping towns, a railway station and a university, as well as there being stops close to large supermarkets. The 85 also stops at Alvaston Hall Hotel and during ‘normal’ times it’s not uncommon to pick up large numbers of passengers travelling to and from Nantwich.

 

[peters]

Given that a Nantwich and Crewe to Newcastle route has existed for 100 years and is relatively unchanged I think it’s evident that there is plenty of demand for a service along that route.

Crewe Station to Keele is an important link which is used by hundreds of students a week under normal circumstances and Madeley to Newcastle is also a busy section.

Demand for travel to and from Newcastle has been steadily increasing in recent years as passengers see it as a ‘quieter’ alternative to Hanley and there is a decent choice of shops. There also doesn’t seem to be as many issues related to antisocial behaviour as there are in Hanley or late.

And I agree that there is the 84 between Crewe and Nantwich which provides a decent level of service but that’s not much use unless you either live along that route or want to travel from end to end. The 85 covers a large part of the town that has lower car ownership than most other areas of Crewe and therefore provides a decent link to three shopping towns, a railway station and a university, as well as there being stops close to large supermarkets. The 85 also stops at Alvaston Hall Hotel and during ‘normal’ times it’s not uncommon to pick up large numbers of passengers travelling to and from Nantwich.

It was only a few years ago that D&G merged the 1 and 85 routes to create a cross-Crewe service but it seems to work.

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest if a Nantwich-Warrington service was introduced what route could it take? Does seem a long route to introduce in this climate in my opinion though.

 

[PaulWC]

They don't actually say a direct service between Middlewich and Warrington though, so proposing a Middlewich to Northwich service is joined on to the existing Northwich to Warrington service would fulfill that requirement, or even easier a bus from Middlewich to Crewe station, which connects well with the train to Warrington.

There are buses between Middlewich and Northwich, so anyone wanting to make the journey on to Warrington could change at Northwich. As for Middlewich to Crewe station, well the 42 used to run past the town centre and onto Crewe station - a link CEC withdrew a few years back presumably because the number of passengers making through journeys was not sufficient, and the town centre to rail station section is adequately served.

It was only a few years ago that D&G merged the 1 and 85 routes to create a cross-Crewe service but it seems to work.

D&G merge nearly every route they have - the current 85 is an amalgam of the old 2, 45 and 85 services. At one point they even extended it out to Hanley. I doubt there's little through traffic, but its convenient for D&G to run it as one service.

 

[Contains Nuts]

Out of interest if a Nantwich-Warrington service was introduced what route could it take? Does seem a long route to introduce in this climate in my opinion though.

Nantwich - Tarporley - Cuddington - Stretton - Warrington is the most direct but there are more farm animals than passengers.

Nantwich - Church Minshull - Winsford - Northwich - Antrobus - Stretton - Warrington would be more sensible but again there is likely to be almost no demand other than where it duplicates existing services.

 

[PaulWC]

One thing that was obvious with the last bus review (and the one before that) is Crewe didn't do too badly compared to North East Cheshire. It doesn't need to stay that way.

There's a few areas of Crewe which now have no buses at all, there's a complete lack of buses to the hospital on a Sunday, evening buses have disappeared from many areas and there's the Nantwich to Leighton Hospital which used to be a regular 7 day a week service which is now 5 journeys Monday to Friday. It's a good job Crewe didn't do too badly.

 

[peters]

Out of interest if a Nantwich-Warrington service was introduced

Do you mean Middlewich? My interpretation isn't that improving connectivity automatically means a direct bus service but other people disagree. I would presume at this stage there's different options on the table and it depends on which other proposals go ahead and which get dropped. For example, if a new Middlewich to Knutsford bus is introduced and the Knutsford to Warrington service is improved then maybe they could be merged to create a cross-Knutsford route. Even then the route could vary depending on which other proposals go ahead e.g. a Middlewich to Knutsford bus could be routed via Jodrell Bank (another proposal) and Radbrooke Hall, or it could take a more direct route via Byley.

There's a few areas of Crewe which now have no buses at all, there's a complete lack of buses to the hospital on a Sunday, evening buses have disappeared from many areas and there's the Nantwich to Leighton Hospital which used to be a regular 7 day a week service which is now 5 journeys Monday to Friday. It's a good job Crewe didn't do too badly.

As you are probably aware a contract was awarded to run a Shavington to Northwich via Leighton Hospital bus on Sundays by the current administration but due to the COVID-19 pandemic the funding which was allocated for that service was diverted to keep other services running despite the reduced passenger numbers like the 70 & 73.

You are also probably aware that generally post-7pm services and Sunday services which were subsided saw their funding withdrawn borough wide as part of the Cheshire East bus review. While most evening services (including some in Crewe) saw their evening services withdrawn, the 38 evening services survived and continue to get council funding. Hence, why I said Crewe didn't do too badly compared to other areas.

 

[PaulWC]

As you are probably aware a contract was awarded to run a Shavington to Northwich via Leighton Hospital bus on Sundays by the current administration but due to the COVID-19 pandemic the funding which was allocated for that service was diverted to keep other services running despite the reduced passenger numbers like the 70 & 73.

You are also probably aware that generally post-7pm services and Sunday services which were subsided saw their funding withdrawn borough wide as part of the Cheshire East bus review. While most evening services (including some in Crewe) saw their evening services withdrawn, the 38 evening services survived and continue to get council funding. Hence, why I said Crewe didn't do too badly compared to other areas.

As you say, the new Sunday Leighton Hospital buses never made it, but there were plans for enhancements for other services across the borough which also had to be cut.

As for the 38, well that also serves Macclesfield, Sandbach and Congleton, so I'm not sure how evening services on that being retained means that Crewe in particular hasn't done too badly.

 

[peters]

As you say, the new Sunday Leighton Hospital buses never made it, but there were plans for enhancements for other services across the borough which also had to be cut.

As for the 38, well that also serves Macclesfield, Sandbach and Congleton, so I'm not sure how evening services on that being retained means that Crewe in particular hasn't done too badly.

The difference was the Shavington to Northwich service was top of the list, a timetable had been written and a contract had been awarded and it had a start date. Other proposed services were still just proposals, with nothing final confirmed.

The 38 service was the one I could think of off the top of my head. On the checking the Cheshire East website the full list of saved subsided evening services were 6E, 8, 37 and 38. Now what they all have in common? Are you sure Crewe didn't get favourable treatment?

 

[PaulWC]

The difference was the Shavington to Northwich service was top of the list, a timetable had been written and a contract had been awarded and it had a start date. Other proposed services were still just proposals, with nothing final confirmed.

The 38 service was the one I could think of off the top of my head. On the checking the Cheshire East website the full list of saved subsided evening services were 6E, 8, 37 and 38. Now what they all have in common? Are you sure Crewe didn't get favourable treatment?

The 6E is 2 or 3 journeys to get visitors to and from the hospital, the 8 is no longer running, the 38 also serves Sandbach, Congleton and Macclesfield and the evening 37 bus only runs between Sandbach and Winsford.

 

[peters]

The 6E is 2 or 3 journeys to get visitors to and from the hospital, the 8 is no longer running, the 38 also serves Sandbach, Congleton and Macclesfield and the evening 37 bus only runs between Sandbach and Winsford.

The 6E is more than what Macc Hospital gets, there is no bus for evening visiting there.

Many bus routes are running to a reduced service due to COVID, the 8 isn't an unique situation.

Anyway the point was Crewe got a good deal considering the plan was no evening services at all and other towns in Cheshire East don't get any buses. You want a better service, I get that but Crewe still has the best evening service in the council's area without improvements.

 

[PaulWC]

The 6E is more than what Macc Hospital gets, there is no bus for evening visiting there.

Many bus routes are running to a reduced service due to COVID, the 8 isn't an unique situation.

Anyway the point was Crewe got a good deal considering the plan was no evening services at all and other towns in Cheshire East don't get any buses. You want a better service, I get that but Crewe still has the best evening service in the council's area without improvements.

Crewe is the biggest town in Cheshire East and probably has greater demand for services than other towns. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Although when compared with its daytime services and what it used to get, Sandbach hasn't done too badly....

 

[peters]

Crewe is the biggest town in Cheshire East and probably has greater demand for services than other towns. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Although when compared with its daytime services and what it used to get, Sandbach hasn't done too badly....

Crewe might be the town with the largest population but the population of the old Macclesfield borough (including Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Chelford, Knutsford, Handforth, Disley & Poynton) is larger than Crewe and the old Macclesfield borough gets just one evening service - the 38 Macclesfield to Crewe.

It should be remembered Crewe has better rail services than any other town in Cheshire East. Crewe already has direct evening links to Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke, Stone, Stafford, Longport, Nantwich, Chester, Warrington, Chelford, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Stockport, Manchester (multiple stations), Manchester Airport, Wenbury, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, East Didsbury, Heald Green, Burnage, Mauldeth Road, Winsford, Hartford, Runcorn, Liverpool, Liverpool South Parkway and long distance destinations by train. For a subsided bus to exist it needs to be demonstrated there's a need for a bus service, so while it can be argued that the Crewe to Nantwich train is not good enough for less able passengers due to the amount of walking involved for some, it can also be argued those unable to use the train and who need to travel are likely to be travelling for shopping or a medical appointment, which will be during the day time not the evening. Therefore, it's entirely justifiable for a daytime Crewe to Nantwich bus to run, as well as a train but an evening service can't easily be justified.

 

[itsonlyme]

Due to passengers now being forced to exit Crewe station by the Weston Road exit exactly the same argument should be used to justify a bus service from the Weston Road exit to the Nantwich Road entrance to Crewe station.
Whenever I alight at Crewe station I always seem be alighting after having had a reservation in Coach B. While I used to be able to change this on Virgins website, following the change of TOC there seems to be no provision to change it on Avanti's. Normally I arrive on platform 11 where from coach B almost at platforms extreme Northern end it takes me 7 minutes to walk to a point opposite the station entrance on Nantwich Road. In other words about 7 minutes to go upward about 20 feet.
Three complaints in writing have not produced a response. Verbal complaints to station staff produce a response like its nothing to do with me, or we don't run the station etc. Typical 21st century complaint response where every thing is always somebody else's problem. These days in my late 70's I do not have good legs and this extra 7 minutes walk means some journeys I may have made are not done. On essential journeys I have sometimes had take a taxi home instead of walking at an extra cost of around £5.
Sorry as this post is mainly rail related and it is in a bus thread but I think appropriate in view of previous comments.

 

[PaulWC]

Crewe might be the town with the largest population but the population of the old Macclesfield borough (including Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Chelford, Knutsford, Handforth, Disley & Poynton) is larger than Crewe and the old Macclesfield borough gets just one evening service - the 38 Macclesfield to Crewe.

It should be remembered Crewe has better rail services than any other town in Cheshire East. Crewe already has direct evening links to Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke, Stone, Stafford, Longport, Nantwich, Chester, Warrington, Chelford, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Stockport, Manchester (multiple stations), Manchester Airport, Wenbury, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, East Didsbury, Heald Green, Burnage, Mauldeth Road, Winsford, Hartford, Runcorn, Liverpool, Liverpool South Parkway and long distance destinations by train. For a subsided bus to exist it needs to be demonstrated there's a need for a bus service, so while it can be argued that the Crewe to Nantwich train is not good enough for less able passengers due to the amount of walking involved for some, it can also be argued those unable to use the train and who need to travel are likely to be travelling for shopping or a medical appointment, which will be during the day time not the evening. Therefore, it's entirely justifiable for a daytime Crewe to Nantwich bus to run, as well as a train but an evening service can't easily be justified.

Now you're including the whole of the old Macclesfield Borough when Crewe only has Nantwich to rely on!!! Of course, it could be argued that Knutsford and Wilmslow do extremely well out of CEC as without them there'd be no buses there at all.

Your argument about the train is OK for passengers simply making an end to end journey, but buses generally make stops en route. There are 3 different Crewe to Nantwich routes serving different areas, estates and villages along the way, and passengers could be be going anywhere, not just from one town to the other. You might as well say the supported 38 journeys should only run from Sandbach to Congleton because there are train services between Crewe and Sandbach, and Congleton and Macclesfield.

Due to passengers now being forced to exit Crewe station by the Weston Road exit exactly the same argument should be used to justify a bus service from the Weston Road exit to the Nantwich Road entrance to Crewe station.
Whenever I alight at Crewe station I always seem be alighting after having had a reservation in Coach B. While I used to be able to change this on Virgins website, following the change of TOC there seems to be no provision to change it on Avanti's. Normally I arrive on platform 11 where from coach B almost at platforms extreme Northern end it takes me 7 minutes to walk to a point opposite the station entrance on Nantwich Road. In other words about 7 minutes to go upward about 20 feet.
Three complaints in writing have not produced a response. Verbal complaints to station staff produce a response like its nothing to do with me, or we don't run the station etc. Typical 21st century complaint response where every thing is always somebody else's problem. These days in my late 70's I do not have good legs and this extra 7 minutes walk means some journeys I may have made are not done. On essential journeys I have sometimes had take a taxi home instead of walking at an extra cost of around £5.
Sorry as this post is mainly rail related and it is in a bus thread but I think appropriate in view of previous comments.

I actually forgot about the Weston Road exit one time and tried to get out at the normal exit. I think the member of staff must have felt sorry for me and let me through. I must admit, it surprised me the first time I went out via Weston Road just how long it takes to get out.

 

[peters]

Now you're including the whole of the old Macclesfield Borough

Precisely. That's because you argued the population of Crewe was higher than any other town. The population of the former Macclesfield borough is significantly higher than the population of the town of Crewe but the number of evening bus services in Crewe is significantly higher. You can't argue Crewe deserves more because it's population is higher than Macclesfield and then argue it's not fair when Crewe is compared to a larger population area.

Of course, it could be argued that Knutsford and Wilmslow do extremely well out of CEC as without them there'd be no buses there at all.

While the 88/89 contract is subsided, the level of subsidy is very low compared to the 42, which is the most heavily subsided bus service in Cheshire, not just Cheshire East. I also understand the commercial 88A, which part duplicated the 88 for a short period, broke even but financial problems at D&G caused by other routes losing money prevented them from keeping the 88A running for longer in the hope it would return a profit. Taking that into consideration I would be surprised if the Knutsford to Wilmslow section of the 88/89 contract doesn't usually return a profit, given there is now only 1 bus per hour which runs via Longridge. It's also only recently Cheshire East started funding the 130, until a few weeks ago there was no council funding for that service which resulted in the service not running at all during the first lockdown.

It also be argued Knutsford and Wilmslow do very badly as the amount of council tax collected in those two towns is much higher per head than in places like Crewe, Sandbach or Congleton.

Your argument about the train is OK for passengers simply making an end to end journey, but buses generally make stops en route.

Yes which is why I specifically referred to essential journeys and those unable to walk longer distances being more likely to travel for essential purposes in the daytime than the evening. Bus subsides aren't generally available for evening buses for people to go to the pub or other social events, unless the lack of a bus service would have a significant effect on local businesses.

 

[gnolife]

Precisely. That's because you argued the population of Crewe was higher than any other town. The population of the former Macclesfield borough is significantly higher than the population of the town of Crewe but the number of evening bus services in Crewe is significantly higher. You can't argue Crewe deserves more because it's population is higher than Macclesfield and then argue it's not fair when Crewe is compared to a larger population area.



While the 88/89 contract is subsided, the level of subsidy is very low compared to the 42, which is the most heavily subsided bus service in Cheshire, not just Cheshire East. I also understand the commercial 88A, which part duplicated the 88 for a short period, broke even but financial problems at D&G caused by other routes losing money prevented them from keeping the 88A running for longer in the hope it would return a profit. Taking that into consideration I would be surprised if the Knutsford to Wilmslow section of the 88/89 contract doesn't usually return a profit, given there is now only 1 bus per hour which runs via Longridge. It's also only recently Cheshire East started funding the 130, until a few weeks ago there was no council funding for that service which resulted in the service not running at all during the first lockdown.

It also be argued Knutsford and Wilmslow do very badly as the amount of council tax collected in those two towns is much higher per head than in places like Crewe, Sandbach or Congleton.



Yes which is why I specifically referred to essential journeys and those unable to walk longer distances being more likely to travel for essential purposes in the daytime than the evening. Bus subsides aren't generally available for evening buses for people to go to the pub or other social events, unless the lack of a bus service would have a significant effect on local businesses.

That first paragraph is a prime example of comparing apples and fish. The town of Crewe is just that, whereas the borough of Macc has large swathes of not much between the towns