Economics of EVs again

[BingMan]

Over the past few decades I have been in the habit of buying a second hand car for about £4000 and running it to scrap, usually about 8 years.
I have spent about £1000 a year on maintenance and £500 a year on fuel.
That works out at about £2000 per year,

Could I run an EV on that budget?

 

[gazthomas]

You've bought cars were depreciation is not real a big issue. You may be able to get away with say a good older EV such as a Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe but it sounds like you've had a good deal so far!

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's probably still somewhat too early in the car type lifecycle for older used EVs to become a mainstream "cheap runabout". So available options are currently still limited to those models that have been around for some time and, as gaz says, that is pretty much Leafs and Zoes. A quick scan of AutoTrader offers a 16 plate 54k Leaf for £5k. It's also too early to say how long it will last but general evidence is that they do last far longer than nay-sayers and FUD merchants would try to make you believe. But as I say, that remains to be confirmed.

Assuming that this car has enough capacity to meet your needs then and assuming you run it for 8 years with practically no residual value then you have an upfront depreciation cost of £625pa. I'd expect maintenance to be minimal, aside from wearable components like tyres and (to a lesser degree than an ICE) brakes. Hard to estimate with any accuracy but based on my own much newer car, ~200 pa inc MOT on non-consumable maintenance. I can't estimate brakes. And perhaps (depending on what state it's in when you buy it) one set of tyres for, what, £400 max. (£50pa). £250 plus any brakes work. This is unpredictable, of course. As with any car there may be something major to massively affect this. So it's on a best endeavours basis.

And then fuel. That depends on whether you'd be home charging. Let's suppose you can.

Average petrol price £145.1/litre = £6.60 per gallon. £500 buys 75 gallons. 75 gallons will take you 3000 miles at 40mpg.
3000 miles pa comes out at 667 kWh of power (assuming 4.5 miles per kWh).
667 kWh would cost me £46 on my current tariff (cheap overnight rate) which needs rounding up to account for charging inefficiency. £50 for round figures. If you will be reliant wholly on paid public charging you can multiply that by around 10x (=£500)

Substitute your own numbers to re-calculate. What is the mpg of your typical car? Is that mileage about right?

So pa = £300 plus any brakes. Or £750 with wholly public charging. Plus £625 depreciation.

 

[trebor79]

Over the past few decades I have been in the habit of buying a second hand car for about £4000 and running it to scrap, usually about 8 years.
I have spent about £1000 a year on maintenance and £500 a year on fuel.
That works out at about £2000 per year,

Could I run an EV on that budget?

Yep easily.
In fact on that mileage you could lease a brand new Corse-e for not much more than your budget.

 

[paul1609]

Yep easily.
In fact on that mileage you could lease a brand new Corse-e for not much more than your budget.

Really? I make a 4year lease on an e corsa about £3k initial payment and then £245 pcm so £2940pa.
Over 4 years thats £14,760 or £3690pa without any charging or maintenance cost?

 

[NoRoute]

With EV technology being relatively new and the newer models having more range and supporting the latest CCS rapid charging technology, you would likely be better to spend more on the purchase, say nearer to £10,000 or more, but with the expectation that the annual maintenance and fuel costs will be lower.

 

[paul1609]

With EV technology being relatively new and the newer models having more range and supporting the latest CCS rapid charging technology, you would likely be better to spend more on the purchase, say nearer to £10,000 or more, but with the expectation that the annual maintenance and fuel costs will be lower.

CCS rapid charging is only going to be useful if you are a doing a significant amount of public charging. If so you are going to be paying significantly more than 7 p/Kwh, for an annual mileage of 3000 that seems unlikely.

 

[Snow1964]

Just did a search on autotrader for electric cars
For £4000 budget have choice of 86 cars
If you can get to £5000 then choice goes up to 192 cars

 

[NoRoute]

CCS rapid charging is only going to be useful if you are a doing a significant amount of public charging. If so you are going to be paying significantly more than 7 p/Kwh, for an annual mileage of 3000 that seems unlikely.

I disagree because it is ease of use now and in the future which is important.

The original poster keeps their cars for a good while, 8 years, so they will want a car which is going to be useable for that whole period, CHAdeMO rapid charging is already obsolete with fewer rapid chargers and less provision in new installations, CCS is the current standard, so better to buy a car which supports the current standard to ensure it will be useable into the 2030s.

The OP didn't mention their travel routines, but I assume like most drivers they would want a car which, when they need to, they can travel long distances with the minimum of hassle. Over the next 8+ years, I'd expect a car with CCS is more likely to provide that because it will be able to access a greater range of charging facilities. Even if the Op only travels long distances rarely, the ability to do so without difficulty is generally an important benefit of owning any car.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I disagree because it is ease of use now and in the future which is important.

Only if public charging is going to be a part of your usage. For some, possibly many, it will never (or hardly ever) be.

 

[trebor79]

Really? I make a 4year lease on an e corsa about £3k initial payment and then £245 pcm so £2940pa.
Over 4 years thats £14,760 or £3690pa without any charging or maintenance cost?

I just went onto leaseloco and searched for 5,000 miles, less than 500 initial payment and less than 250 a month and that's what came up.
Didn't check arval, could probably get a cheaper used lease there.

Only if public charging is going to be a part of your usage. For some, possibly many, it will never (or hardly ever) be.

Indeed. My wife's EV has been charged away from home precisely once in the past year. I charge mine away from home a few times a month.

 

[BingMan]

The OP didn't mention their travel routines, but I assume like most drivers they would want a car which, when they need to, they can travel long distances with the minimum of hassle. Over the next 8+ years, I'd expect a car with CCS is more likely to provide that because it will be able to access a greater range of charging facilities. Even if the Op only travels long distances rarely, the ability to do so without difficulty is generally an important benefit of owning any car.

The car is used mainly for short local trips: shopping and such. Two, rarely three, longer holiday jaunts of maybe 500 miles.

 

[Alex McKenna]

This new EV is cheapest yet...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That one is interesting - going straight into the market for those who buy brand new city cars purely as local runarounds.

(For an EV, a used Nissan Leaf with a degraded range can be a far better purchase for that purpose, but some do prefer new!)

 

[NoRoute]

Only if public charging is going to be a part of your usage. For some, possibly many, it will never (or hardly ever) be.

For a second car, which never goes beyond the radius of its battery range fair enough. But as a sole car or primary car, most people are going to want to be able to do longer distance trips in it, barring unusual situations.

The car is used mainly for short local trips: shopping and such. Two, rarely three, longer holiday jaunts of maybe 500 miles.

Yes so for the longer distance trips, over the long term of 8+ years ownership, consider whether you want to risk going for an older or cheaper EV with CHAdeMO accepting you will have fewer options for rapid charging on long distance trips, or consider a car with CCS which has more rapid charge points and is more future proof.

 

[E27007]

Last Sunday carried as a passenger in an MG4 in use as a minicab.
The driver related his experience of the MG4 ZEV.
Car arrived with battery on 22%, he called into a 50kWH service station and charged to 38% in 10 to 15 minutes.
The charge cost of 79p/kWH
Driving on the A2/M2 at an energy-efficient 50 mph London Blackheath to the Isle of Grain destination (RAC Route Planner 30 miles) the car completed the trip with the battery at 28%, therefore 38% to 28% for 30 miles
The car was very quiet, only modest road noise in the cabin , matching an expensive petrol car
The driver purposely kept the speed down to 50mph, he said at 60 to 70 mph the economy and range drops drastically, he said if he ran out of charge on the A2/M2 it will cost him £300 to be towed off, does RAC/AA breakdown cover include driver-error run-out of battery charge occurences?.
Could I live with an MG4, yes, provided I can charge at home on economy rates but put off by charging at 79p/kWH public charging, my petrol car works out as 12 to 15p/mile
The verdict of the driver , the MG4 is a "cheaply built" car with problems of range on motorways when driven at 60 to 70 mph, the MG4 more suited to town work and 50 mph on motorways. I had no issue with the "cheap build" of the interior or seating, they were both acceptable.
He did not intend to have another ZEV, he planned to buy a petrol hybrid
The car had been reliable, he knew an owner whose 2023 MG car was off the road for nine months requiring body parts on order.
.

 

[Snow1964]

Apparently lots of small electric cars going on sale in UK in next few months.

Citroen e-C3
Dacia Spring
Fiat Grande Panda
Hyundai Inster
Renault 5
Vauxhall Frontera

And in about 12-18 months time, more small cars, some of which will be more upmarket (and thus more expensive ) :
Alpine A290
Cupra Raval
Kia EV2
Skoda Epiq
Suzuki eVX
Tesla
Volkswagen ID2

 

[trebor79]

Last Sunday carried as a passenger in an MG4 in use as a minicab.
The driver related his experience of the MG4 ZEV.
Car arrived with battery on 22%, he called into a 50kWH service station and charged to 38% in 10 to 15 minutes.
The charge cost of 79p/kWH
Driving on the A2/M2 at an energy-efficient 50 mph London Blackheath to the Isle of Grain destination (RAC Route Planner 30 miles) the car completed the trip with the battery at 28%, therefore 38% to 28% for 30 miles
The car was very quiet, only modest road noise in the cabin , matching an expensive petrol car
The driver purposely kept the speed down to 50mph, he said at 60 to 70 mph the economy and range drops drastically, he said if he ran out of charge on the A2/M2 it will cost him £300 to be towed off, does RAC/AA breakdown cover include driver-error run-out of battery charge occurences?.
Could I live with an MG4, yes, provided I can charge at home on economy rates but put off by charging at 79p/kWH public charging, my petrol car works out as 12 to 15p/mile
The verdict of the driver , the MG4 is a "cheaply built" car with problems of range on motorways when driven at 60 to 70 mph, the MG4 more suited to town work and 50 mph on motorways. I had no issue with the "cheap build" of the interior or seating, they were both acceptable.
He did not intend to have another ZEV, he planned to buy a petrol hybrid
The car had been reliable, he knew an owner whose 2023 MG car was off the road for nine months requiring body parts on order.
.

If he'd used a 150kW charger that would have taken about 4 minutes.
3 miles per % battery is pretty good.
70mph doesn't drop the range *that* much, probably to 2.5 miles per % battery.

 

[E27007]

If he'd used a 150kW charger that would have taken about 4 minutes.
3 miles per % battery is pretty good.
70mph doesn't drop the range *that* much, probably to 2.5 miles per % battery.

Regret I did not ask the driver about the model of MG4, if his car has either 51/61/77 kWH battery pack.
The service station has a 50 kWH charger, another MG ZEV (not an MG4) arrived so a short queue for access to the sole charger

If he'd used a 150kW charger that would have taken about 4 minutes.
3 miles per % battery is pretty good.
70mph doesn't drop the range *that* much, probably to 2.5 miles per % battery.

I guess you have an MG4, for the 2.5 miles / % of battery discharge at 70 mph, does your car have the battery pack of capacity 50, 61 or 77 kwH ?

 

[trebor79]

Regret I did not ask the driver about the model of MG4, if his car has either 51/61/77 kWH battery pack.
The service station has a 50 kWH charger, another MG ZEV (not an MG4) arrived so a short queue for access to the sole charger


I guess you have an MG4, for the 2.5 miles / % of battery discharge at 70 mph, does your car have the battery pack of capacity 50, 61 or 77 kwH ?

No I have a Tesla Model e and. Kia Niro EV. The Tesla battery is nominally 75kWh but is a bit degraded so really a smidge shy of 70. The Kia has a 68kWh battery. The Tesla does 4-5 miles per kWh on the motorway, or just about 3 miles per %. The Niro does 3-4 miles per kWh or about 2.5 miles per %.
I reckon your driver had the 61kWh pack.

Edit: if we say the charge was 12 minutes it suggests 55kWh pack.

 

[Starmill]

Are you happy to share the year of first registration and the year you bought the car for the two most recent purchases you got?

 

[trebor79]

Are you happy to share the year of first registration and the year you bought the car for the two most recent purchases you got?

Tesla is a 21 plate bought last year. According to a couple of apps battery capacity is below fleet average and always has been in my ownership. Seems about 2-3kWh down on where it "should" be. I could run a calibration to possible recovery subs if that but we're talking 10-12 miles range so it's no practical impact. It's following the right shape curve - degradation had flat lined and no significant change in the last 12 months.
The Kia is a 72 late bought new. Don't have as much data for that but there has been no noticeable frustration and the Korean cars are known for having robust batteries.

 

[Energy]

The driver related his experience of the MG4 ZEV.
Car arrived with battery on 22%, he called into a 50kWH service station and charged to 38% in 10 to 15 minutes.
The charge cost of 79p/kWH

79p/kWH is pretty expensive, though not unknown.

I'm surprised he is using public charging at all. Google says a typical private hire car is typically ~110mi per day, though some (e.g. airport shuttles) possibly up to 250mi. This would be within the range if he could recharge overnight at home daily.

He did not intend to have another ZEV, he planned to buy a petrol hybrid

If he can't charge at home, I don't blame him. At 75-79p/kWH, you're at worst matching petrol, but not beating it by much.

Could I live with an MG4, yes, provided I can charge at home on economy rates but put off by charging at 79p/kWH public charging, my petrol car works out as 12 to 15p/mile

Agreed. I couldn't live with 75-79p/kWh charging except for infrequent use.

We are starting to see small-scale price wars where there are nearby major charging hubs. What we need is the supermarkets to engage, they already have grid connections for their shops and are willing to accept low margins to get people inside stores. Sainsbury's has realised this and has started their SmartCharge scheme at 65-75p/kWH. Lidl has got some of its own chargers as well and Tesco is reportedly planning on it.

Supermarket-fuel-esc prices for charging could be a great solution for those without off-street parking and for minicabs charging at lunchtime.