Edge Hill Spur

[po8crg]

I've had a fair dig around and couldn't find a thread on this. If I missed one, please point me in the right direction.

Seems to me that electrification of the Liverpool-Manchester and Liverpool-Wigan make the argument for the Edge Hill Spur (the line connection between the aboveground line at Edge Hill and the underground lines within Liverpool) considerably better.

One problem has always been rolling stock: diesel trains can't go into the tunnels, but with overhead electrification, the overground lines will be served by EMUs, and the 319s that are coming from Thameslink are even dual-voltage dual-pickup vehicles already. Getting them approved to run over the Merseyrail network shouldn't be impossible.

If the third-rail electrification is extended to Edge Hill station, they can change power in the station, as they do in Farringdon at present (on Thameslink).

 

[156441]

I might have missed the point here but what would the point in this be?

 

[po8crg]

I might have missed the point here but what would the point in this be?

Through trains. You could run trains from anywhere in the Wirral through to "Merseyrail City Line" (ie stations to Wigan or the LMR route to Manchester).

So you could have Manchester-New Brighton, for instance. Direct trains from Manchester to the Wirral would open up quite a lot of routes that involve terrible changes at Lime Street. More through trains would alleviate the crowding in that horrid little access to the Wirral Line at Lime Street.

Northern Line could connect in theory, but Southport-Wigan or Southport-Manchester via Liverpool is a bit pointless, as there's a perfectly good direct service. However, it would make a journey like, say Huyton-Bootle a single change, instead of having to transfer from Lime Street to Central in Liverpool.

Finally, it would give commuters from East Merseyside (St Helens and the like) access into central Liverpool, instead of walking from Lime Street (as they mostly do)

Think of it as a mini-Thameslink/CrossRail.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Through trains. You could run trains from anywhere in the Wirral through to "Merseyrail City Line" (ie stations to Wigan or the LMR route to Manchester).

So you could have Manchester-New Brighton, for instance. Direct trains from Manchester to the Wirral would open up quite a lot of routes that involve terrible changes at Lime Street. More through trains would alleviate the crowding in that horrid little access to the Wirral Line at Lime Street.

Northern Line could connect in theory, but Southport-Wigan or Southport-Manchester via Liverpool is a bit pointless, as there's a perfectly good direct service. However, it would make a journey like, say Huyton-Bootle a single change, instead of having to transfer from Lime Street to Central in Liverpool.

Finally, it would give commuters from East Merseyside (St Helens and the like) access into central Liverpool, instead of walking from Lime Street (as they mostly do)

Think of it as a mini-Thameslink/CrossRail.

You might be on to something here but do we have enough capacity, in particular on the route from Edge Hill? Are there any stations which could be re-opened in the process?

 

[Holly]

You might be on to something here but do we have enough capacity, in particular on the route from Edge Hill? Are there any stations which could be re-opened in the process?

There really isn't enough capacity to make it worthwhile. Especially as new freight traffic is expected to increase in the years ahead.

The only way there would be enough capacity is if you were to build a whole new HS2 line to Edge Hill which some people want. Thus giving a great deal more capacity to the East and to the South than exists today.

The 1960s plans for Liverpool third rail railways provided for such a tunnel (Edge Hill - Liverpool Central low level) as a possible future option. Nowadays you would want to serve the University / Medical Science quarter if you were to do new construction in that area.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There really isn't enough capacity to make it worthwhile. Especially as new freight traffic is expected to increase in the years ahead.

Just a quick question where is all this freight traffic coming from?

 

[po8crg]

I'm not sure what you mean by capacity here - you don't need new train paths, just reroute the slow services from Manchester into the tunnel (you could use either of two existing tunnels, either Wapping or Waterloo - I think Wapping is the preferred route) and join that to an existing train path on the Wirral Line.

Routing the slow Manchester (ie MCV) services and the Wigan services would be 4tph on the route without adding any new train paths other than in the actual tunnels.

Fast services (ie TPE) would continue to run to Lime Street, as would intercity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just a quick question where is all this freight traffic coming from?

The giant new container ship terminal at Seaforth Dock.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The giant new container ship terminal at Seaforth Dock.

And what about the new port in Salford?

 

[po8crg]

And what about the new port in Salford?

If you think you can get a post-Panamax up the Manchester Ship Canal then you have another think coming.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you think you can get a post-Panamax up the Manchester Ship Canal then you have another think coming.

I'm not the one proposing the new port. I'm just curious to know where all this extra freight traffic is coming from that's all.

 

[razor89]

No capacity at Liverpool Central for this. Unless a new (very expensive) platform is built it won't happen.

 

[northofthesand]

I've had a fair dig around and couldn't find a thread on this. If I missed one, please point me in the right direction.

Seems to me that electrification of the Liverpool-Manchester and Liverpool-Wigan make the argument for the Edge Hill Spur (the line connection between the aboveground line at Edge Hill and the underground lines within Liverpool) considerably better.

One problem has always been rolling stock: diesel trains can't go into the tunnels, but with overhead electrification, the overground lines will be served by EMUs, and the 319s that are coming from Thameslink are even dual-voltage dual-pickup vehicles already. Getting them approved to run over the Merseyrail network shouldn't be impossible.

If the third-rail electrification is extended to Edge Hill station, they can change power in the station, as they do in Farringdon at present (on Thameslink).

Judging by the people waiting for taxis at limey on a football match day i
could see a service dropping shopper's off at liverpool central then
football fans off at sandhills or kirkdale doing quite well

Also the rare race days at aintree could benefit i could see people from
further afield leaving the car at home if they could travel direct to the above stations

 

[pablo]

All been discussed before. Do a search.

 

[Wavertreelad]

All been discussed before. Do a search.

Most of is already on the Liverpool Lime Street thread.

 

[6Gman]

I'm trying to understand the concept!

Effectively is this replacing the Wirral Line loop with a 2-way link to Edge Hill?

So trains would go:

James St - Moorfields - Lime St - Edge Hill - rest of the world

rest of the world - Lime St - Central - James St

 

[eps200]

I'll do a quick run down of whats being proposed and why.

The slow lines and slow service on mixed lines east of edge are routed into this new tunnel, fast and semi fast services continue to run into lime street. This frees up quite a lot of capacity between edge hill and lime street currently heavily congested

There are currently 8tph on the northern line half of them terminate at Liverpool central these would be joined to four city line services via the new spur, ideally the most southerly branch, northerly ones would practically be turning back on themselves.

The remaining city line services would run on at least as far as James street but ideally they would be joined to a branch of the Wirral line, new Brighton perhaps 4tph stops the end to end distance getting too silly. Getting a bit beyond reason the loop would ideally retain it's service by the electrification of the borderlands line.

The network would likely need a bit of re branding being organised into perhaps four lines or some such pulled from nowhere.

• Wirral - any branches that use the loop, west Kirby, Chester, Ellesmere port?
• Northern - Kirby and ormskirk to hunts cross
• "New line" - Southport to Warrington
• City - New Brighton to newton and wigan

 

[Wavertreelad]

I'll do a quick run down of whats being proposed and why.

The slow lines and slow service on mixed lines east of edge are routed into this new tunnel, fast and semi fast services continue to run into lime street. This frees up quite a lot of capacity between edge hill and lime street currently heavily congested

There are currently 8tph on the northern line half of them terminate at Liverpool central these would be joined to four city line services via the new spur, ideally the most southerly branch, northerly ones would practically be turning back on themselves.

The remaining city line services would run on at least as far as James street but ideally they would be joined to a branch of the Wirral line, new Brighton perhaps 4tph stops the end to end distance getting too silly. Getting a bit beyond reason the loop would ideally retain it's service by the electrification of the borderlands line.

The network would likely need a bit of re branding being organised into perhaps four lines or some such pulled from nowhere.

• Wirral - any branches that use the loop, west Kirby, Chester, Ellesmere port?
• Northern - Kirby and ormskirk to hunts cross
• "New line" - Southport to Warrington
• City - New Brighton to newton and wigan

These plans I believe date from the 1970's when capacity at Liverpool Central Station was not an issue, but Network and Merseytravel have recently stated that even following the revamp the station will need to be expanded so I'm not sure terminating trains from the City Line there would work in the long run, hence my alternative, uncosted, unplanned idea.

1.Both tunnels from Edge Hill are reactivated and joined to the Northern Line at Central Station in the south and just north of Moorfields in the north, with an option at this point for another junction to allow southbound trains to run east in the reopened tunnel. There would no need to build the proposed line linking the two tunnels or the station under the University.
2. Central Station is expanded with additional passing loop platforms and bays.
3. Four additional platforms are built at Edge Hill, two either side of the Tunnel entrances with a footbridge/lifts connecting them to the existing station and Picton Road.
4. Reopen the Edge Hill Flyover which would require the existing bridge opening to Wavertree Technology Park to be removed and a direct access provided from Rathbone Road. Reinstate a new rail bridge between the existing abutments and trackwork from Olive Mount Junction west and across the new railbridge to Edge Hill.

City Line trains bound for Liverpool could then run through either the Victoria/Waterloo Tunnel or the Wapping Tunnel to an expanded Central Station or beyond instead of Lime Street, returning via opposite tunnel. The Edge Hill flyover would avoid the need for City Lines trains to cross the path of trains from the London route, thereby reducing the risk of bottlenecks into Lime Street Station and increasing capacity. Some existing services could still stop at the new Central Station, but perhaps Preston and Warrington services could simply run straight through and continue round the loop, whilst Manchester Airport could be extended to terminate at either on the Wirral or Southport.

I would stress there are no plans to do this so it is only a suggestion.

 

[eps200]

I should have mentioned i took a new pair of platforms at central as a given. the Runcorn trains wouldn't terminate they would be joined to the current terminators so it would have 8 through services rather than 4 through 4 terminators.

Central will need redoing anyway at some point sooner or later we have to bite the bullet of a full rebuild. possibly excluding the deep level.

My thoughts on joining the new Brighton branch to a city branch, preferably one that reaches Manchester was more for the sanity of the map, it's already a bit tricky to figure out instantly what goes where with the edge hill spur it would get a bit crazy. Also i must add, I've been thinking with the 20 miles more plan for a HS2 station at Liverpool exchange in mind.

 

[Aegir]

Liverpool Central really isnt cut out to be a terminus station. Central would not need this "extra capacity" if it was only served by through trains.

Extend Ormskirk services south via Burrowing Junction, Wapping Tunnel to Edge Hill and Slow Lines to Liverpool South Parkway, with possible underground extension to the airport. Remove the fast line platforms at Mossley Hill and West Allerton, and have them exclusively served by the Northern Line. The Wavertree curve would have to be 4-track to enable the 15 minute service without impacting on the main line. New stations could be added at Wavertree and Sefton Park overground, and two new underground stations in the Wapping tunnel.

Kirkby services would terminate either in the reversing siding at Liverpool Central, or continue on to terminate somewhere else.

Sandhills Junction would probably need to be grade separated to allow increase in number of Southport services.

I doubt there is any space at Liverpool Central to increase the number of platforms with the current escalator configuration, and seeing as how the only reason to increase the number of platforms is to facilitate terminating trains, it seems rather pointless.

The Wirral Line currently has 14tph running around the loop thanks in no small part to the grade separated junction at Hamilton Square. If headways were improved then potentially that could be increased.

As for HS2, why dont they run it from Crewe, via Chester, reinstate the 3rd and 4th lines between Chester and Green Lane, and then run them via the old Woodside Tunnel through a brand new cross river tunnel into Liverpool City centre? It wouldnt affect services in Liverpool at all.

I hope that made sense and wasnt too much of a ramble for my first post

 

[eps200]

Liverpool Central really isnt cut out to be a terminus station. Central would not need this "extra capacity" if it was only served by through trains.

Extend Ormskirk services south via Burrowing Junction, Wapping Tunnel to Edge Hill and Slow Lines to Liverpool South Parkway, with possible underground extension to the airport. Remove the fast line platforms at Mossley Hill and West Allerton, and have them exclusively served by the Northern Line. The Wavertree curve would have to be 4-track to enable the 15 minute service without impacting on the main line. New stations could be added at Wavertree and Sefton Park overground, and two new underground stations in the Wapping tunnel.

Kirkby services would terminate either in the reversing siding at Liverpool Central, or continue on to terminate somewhere else.

Sandhills Junction would probably need to be grade separated to allow increase in number of Southport services.

I doubt there is any space at Liverpool Central to increase the number of platforms with the current escalator configuration, and seeing as how the only reason to increase the number of platforms is to facilitate terminating trains, it seems rather pointless.

The Wirral Line currently has 14tph running around the loop thanks in no small part to the grade separated junction at Hamilton Square. If headways were improved then potentially that could be increased.

As for HS2, why dont they run it from Crewe, via Chester, reinstate the 3rd and 4th lines between Chester and Green Lane, and then run them via the old Woodside Tunnel through a brand new cross river tunnel into Liverpool City centre? It wouldn't affect services in Liverpool at all.

I hope that made sense and wasn't too much of a ramble for my first post

Central not having any terminators helps greatly but it's not just an issue of trains per hour. The Wirral line loop can in theory take 30 TPH given adequate stock and signals, getting the trains through central probably wont be an issue. But the stations can't handle that many people.

Central has a very very bad layout and is the bottleneck even though we could fit more trains the extra pax from the city line would be an issue, in contrast say moorfeilds can handle a lot more pax and could be easily refurbed to take more.
It's hard though the station is more or less full and can't be expanded without a long expensive closure, new platforms would allow the northern line to stay open and spread the load.

For the cost of a HS line from Crewe to Birkenhead and a new Mersey tunnel we could get the Warington route every Mersey rail extension. Bidston > Wrexham, Kirby > Wigan, Ormskirk > Preston, Eport > Helsby and the Edge hill spur.
The Warington route also allows, Liverpool > Warington parkway > Manchester airport > Manchester Picadily. with passive provision to extend east to Leeds.

 

[Bevan Price]

Bad idea in my opinion. Major objection is that it would make it a lot less convenient for local passengers changing to or from London, Birmingham & other long distance services at Lime Street.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Central not having any terminators helps greatly but it's not just an issue of trains per hour. The Wirral line loop can in theory take 30 TPH given adequate stock and signals, getting the trains through central probably wont be an issue. But the stations can't handle that many people.

Central has a very very bad layout and is the bottleneck even though we could fit more trains the extra pax from the city line would be an issue, in contrast say moorfeilds can handle a lot more pax and could be easily refurbed to take more.
It's hard though the station is more or less full and can't be expanded without a long expensive closure, new platforms would allow the northern line to stay open and spread the load.

For the cost of a HS line from Crewe to Birkenhead and a new Mersey tunnel we could get the Warington route every Mersey rail extension. Bidston > Wrexham, Kirby > Wigan, Ormskirk > Preston, Eport > Helsby and the Edge hill spur.
The Warington route also allows, Liverpool > Warington parkway > Manchester airport > Manchester Picadily. with passive provision to extend east to Leeds.

Just to clarify one or two points on my suggestion.
1. Network Rail & Merseytravel have already stated the most recent upgrade to Central completed last year would only solve the overcrowding for a relatively short amount of time, if passenger numbers continued to grow at recent rates. This suggests more or longer platforms with additional passenger access which could also then incorporate some City Line trains.
2. I agree that it would be better to avoid terminators at Central, so hence the reason for creating effectively a second loop, perhaps called the Edge Hill Loop by joining the Northern Line to both Edge Hill tunnels. This would allow some trains to be dissipated over the Northern Line to terminate at other stations to spread the numbers whilst some would run right round the loop.
3. As the Wirral Loop line passes under the Northern Line at both Central and Moorfields stations there could be an option for trains running via the Wapping Tunnel to run through to the Wirral using the existing stock exchange tunnel between Central and James Street with trains from Wirral following the reverse route back to Edge Hill and beyond.
4. I appreciate some serious additional tunnelling may be necessary to accomplish these suggestions but with the reinstatement of the Edge Hill Flyover, the bottle neck at Edge Hill is reduced and future capacity issues at Lime Street eased.
5. I accept the suggestion would still not allow HS2 trains to reach the Lime Street, but it would make it easier to accommodate more HS2 compatible trains as well as traditional long distance trains to reach Lime Street.
6. I believe Merseyrail is already looking at extended Hunts Cross trains to Warrington, as well as Bidston to Wrexham, with these extensions probably electrified using 25kv OHLE rather than third rail.

 

[eps200]

Just to clarify one or two points on my suggestion.
1. Network Rail & Merseytravel have already stated the most recent upgrade to Central completed last year would only solve the overcrowding for a relatively short amount of time, if passenger numbers continued to grow at recent rates. This suggests more or longer platforms with additional passenger access which could also then incorporate some City Line trains.
2. I agree that it would be better to avoid terminators at Central, so hence the reason for creating effectively a second loop, perhaps called the Edge Hill Loop by joining the Northern Line to both Edge Hill tunnels. This would allow some trains to be dissipated over the Northern Line to terminate at other stations to spread the numbers whilst some would run right round the loop.
3. As the Wirral Loop line passes under the Northern Line at both Central and Moorfields stations there could be an option for trains running via the Wapping Tunnel to run through to the Wirral using the existing stock exchange tunnel between Central and James Street with trains from Wirral following the reverse route back to Edge Hill and beyond.
4. I appreciate some serious additional tunnelling may be necessary to accomplish these suggestions but with the reinstatement of the Edge Hill Flyover, the bottle neck at Edge Hill is reduced and future capacity issues at Lime Street eased.
5. I accept the suggestion would still not allow HS2 trains to reach the Lime Street, but it would make it easier to accommodate more HS2 compatible trains as well as traditional long distance trains to reach Lime Street.
6. I believe Merseyrail is already looking at extended Hunts Cross trains to Warrington, as well as Bidston to Wrexham, with these extensions probably electrified using 25kv OHLE rather than third rail.

1. Yeah they didn't just kick it down the road but that was probably the best call, and the Wirral line platform should be good for a long time.

2. an edge hill loop would be quite large, running two tracks edge hill > central allows almost all of the benefits for half the tunnelling. the only lost opportunity is running down the southern section of the northern line but this already has the lowest demand.
IMO a better use if that tunnelling would be to quad as far as sandhils but that even would be massive overkill.

3. James street > central can happen, that was the original route and back then took absurd frequencies so it can definitely happen, subject to a restoration of platform 2 James street.

4. This may be needed anyway lime street is getting very full indeed at the moment. If all the city line stuff east of the junction could run into the spur it makes life for semi fasts and fasts a lot easier.

5. see above

6. Mersey rail have a list of "aspirations"
Bidston > wrexham
Kirby > skemesdale
Elsmere port > helsby
Hunts cross > Warrington, probably only 2 of the 4tph because of pathing issues.
Ormskirk > Preston is oft mooted as a possibility if it can be made fast enough as the current route via WCML could use the paths, knocks out a diesel island too.
Canada dock branch, this is an interesting one, been back on the agenda as this is getting wired, currently freight only but with the spur could work with a string of reopened stations and a new interchange in bootle.

 

[Foxcote]

I have read the Edge Hill spur thread with great interest. The plans for through trains Wirral/City lines etc have great merit, and would make travel easier and quicker for some passengers. I have concerns however, that if Wirral trains were delayed on the City lines, there would be an adverse effect on the Wirral line reliability and timekeeping. The missing trains/crews/reliefs would have a knock-on effect leading to further disruption.

Should any of the proposed schemes for through services take place, it is important that all lines should have compatible stock. At present, AFAIK, 507/508 units (which all have the Westcode brake system) cannot be coupled to work in multiple with any other stock on Merseyside. However, for emergency assistance only, the Tightlock coupler is compatible with the standard Buckeye.
507/508 units also have trip cocks, Tunnel Emergency Communication and other equipment not carried by any other stock.

I have not seen mention of the hidden tunnel at Liverpool Central. I refer to the 'pilot bore' circa 1890, which is behind the wall facing platform 1 and used to have small access holes visible. The bore runs from just off the Moorfields end of the platform (where the former West signal box, Mersey Cabin B, was located) up to the reversing siding. The height of the bore is variable, possibly up to 8/9 feet in places. During the Central reconstruction it was filled with spoil and debris. Does anyone know if the possibility of opening this area out to form a useful purpose has ever been considered?

 

[razor89]

The plans for through trains Wirral/City lines etc have great merit, and would make travel easier and quicker for some passengers.

They certainly do not have great merit! It currently takes, what, 2 minutes to get up from the Wirral line platform at lime street to the main concourse? How can you possibly justify spending millions of pounds on building new tunnels, putting in new junctions and signalling equipment, disrupting services on the Northern line and the main line out of Lime St, for saving 2 minutes?

 

[Wavertreelad]

They certainly do not have great merit! It currently takes, what, 2 minutes to get up from the Wirral line platform at lime street to the main concourse? How can you possibly justify spending millions of pounds on building new tunnels, putting in new junctions and signalling equipment, disrupting services on the Northern line and the main line out of Lime St, for saving 2 minutes?

Yes this may be case, but this discussion is not just about how long it currently takes for Wirral Line passengers transferring to and from the surface platforms at Lime Street.

The facts are that Merseytravel have already stated that Central will need to be expanded if passengers numbers continue to grow at recent levels. Considering Merseytravel/Merseyrail already have ambitions to extend the network and the regeneration of the Liverpool City Region the footfall will surely increase in any event. The 507/508 units are due to be replaced by 2019 which will no doubt bring longer trains and thus more passengers from the existing network, let alone any further expansions of it. Electrification of the City Line will likely generate more trains and passengers, and Network Rail have already stated that Lime Street has one of the busiest concourses in the country. Current platform/siding 6a at Lime Street main line station is due to be brought back into use as platform 7 during 2014/2015 and todays platforms 7,8,9 will be renamed 8,9,10 bringing further trains and passengers, but after this completed there will be little if any further space for expansion to handle additional trains.

Using the existing tunnels from Edge Hill to link to an much expanded Central Station provides a solution to increase capacity at both stations both for trains and passengers. If use of the Edge Hill spur also includes the use of the reinstated Edge Hill flyover a potential bottleneck at Edge Hill would be avoided, although the pinch point on the City Line would then become the twin track stretch between Olive Mount Junction and the new Roby junction. Solving this one would require would require rebuilding the M62 /Bowring Park Road bridge to the west of Broad Green Station and would lead to considerable disruption let alone cost.

My original thoughts on using the spur was a terminal station at Central for City Lines, but using both tunnels to form I would suggest offers a better alternative and better use of resources, ie trains sitting at platforms waiting for their next turn is a vast waste of resource. Instead, and particularly if Merseyrail was extended you can have various permutations of the following,

Wigan/Preston/Warrington on City Line to Liverpool Central then to

1. Wigan via Moorfields on an extended Kirkby Line and return.
2. Chester via the Wirral Line and return.
3. Wrexham via the Wirral Line via an electrified line from Bidston and return.
4. Warrington via the electrified CLC route and return.

In effect a twin track spur would become the central hub and by balancing the number of incoming trains with various destinations outside Liverpool enables maximum use of resource and thus revenue as well as opening up many new travel opportunities. Obviously these are long term "plans" and would require the new Merseyrail fleet to be dual voltage with a commitment to convert the network to OHLE over the life period of the stock.

Lime Street would then be free to concentrate on longer distance trains to Manchester and Manchester Airport, as well as destinations further afield including HS2 compatible services.

 

[Gareth]

EDIT: cross-posted with Wavertreelad. Was addressing razor 89.

I feel you miss the point. The primary purpose is not to save changing passengers two minutes but to take commuter trains off the slow and congested Edge Hill-Lime Street section. Not only does it free up capacity on that section and Lime Street high level itself but it plugs East Liverpool and St Helens into a frequent and electric 'metro' service, including at least one new station somewhere around the university. It makes more direct services possible, plus a higher choice of city centre stations, rather than just Lime Street.

The idea of using the Wirral Line is fairly recent though. The traditional plans were for some Northern Line trains to veer off south of Central towards Edge Hill and connect with the Chat Moss. This makes sense in the fact the services are currently top heavy (i.e. three northerly termini and just one southerly though it would be geographically weird to, say, have a line going from Southport to Wigan via Liverpool. The Wirral Line makes more geographical sense but the loop works well for what it's designed for: transferring passengers from four branches into Central Liverpool with four choices of city centre stations. Changing it to cross-city would be tricky, though not impossible but would almost certainly mean losing some of those city centre loop stations.

By the way, this isn't forum fantasy stuff. The Edge Hill Spur was planned for Merseyrail from the beginning and whilst it went quiet for a couple of decades, Merseytravel has never given up on getting it built some day. A couple of things are starting to align now though; namely electrification of the Chat Moss route and the rolling stock replacement scheme and so the Edge Hill Spur looks a lot more likely to happen then it did just a handful of years ago.

 

[Wavertreelad]

EDIT: cross-posted with Wavertreelad. Was addressing razor 89.

I feel you miss the point. The primary purpose is not to save changing passengers two minutes but to take commuter trains off the slow and congested Edge Hill-Lime Street section. Not only does it free up capacity on that section and Lime Street high level itself but it plugs East Liverpool and St Helens into a frequent and electric 'metro' service, including at least one new station somewhere around the university. It makes more direct services possible, plus a higher choice of city centre stations, rather than just Lime Street.

The idea of using the Wirral Line is fairly recent though. The traditional plans were for some Northern Line trains to veer off south of Central towards Edge Hill and connect with the Chat Moss. This makes sense in the fact the services are currently top heavy (i.e. three northerly termini and just one southerly though it would be geographically weird to, say, have a line going from Southport to Wigan via Liverpool. The Wirral Line makes more geographical sense but the loop works well for what it's designed for: transferring passengers from four branches into Central Liverpool with four choices of city centre stations. Changing it to cross-city would be tricky, though not impossible but would almost certainly mean losing some of those city centre loop stations.

By the way, this isn't forum fantasy stuff. The Edge Hill Spur was planned for Merseyrail from the beginning and whilst it went quiet for a couple of decades, Merseytravel has never given up on getting it built some day. A couple of things are starting to align now though; namely electrification of the Chat Moss route and the rolling stock replacement scheme and so the Edge Hill Spur looks a lot more likely to happen then it did just a handful of years ago.

EDIT: cross-posted with Wavertreelad.

Yes and it is a much better plan than Merseytravel's Mersey Tram Scheme which cost millions without an inch of track being laid. On another political point it would also benefit the local transport plans of all the members of the greater Liverpool region authorities.

 

[razor89]

Possibly I was too hasty to dismiss this idea. However if the tunnels were opened up I would prefer to see the canada dock line reopened to passengers also to form a sort of 'circle' service that could run from Central, through Edge Hill and round to Bootle Oriel Road.

With regards to Lime Street, if platform space is an issue then couldn't the current pick up/ drop off point be converted for use? Surely capacity isn't maxed out on the station approach though. Even if it was the area could be resignalled to provide for shorter headways.

I have to say I personally disagree with many of Merseytravels aspirations for Merseyrail, as they seem more concerned about improving travel for the likes of Wrexham than the people of Liverpool, but its off topic so won't go into it further.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Possibly I was too hasty to dismiss this idea. However if the tunnels were opened up I would prefer to see the canada dock line reopened to passengers also to form a sort of 'circle' service that could run from Central, through Edge Hill and round to Bootle Oriel Road.

With regards to Lime Street, if platform space is an issue then couldn't the current pick up/ drop off point be converted for use? Surely capacity isn't maxed out on the station approach though. Even if it was the area could be resignalled to provide for shorter headways.

I have to say I personally disagree with many of Merseytravels aspirations for Merseyrail, as they seem more concerned about improving travel for the likes of Wrexham than the people of Liverpool, but its off topic so won't go into it further.

I would expect the Bootle Branch will be electrified at 25kv OHLE as it currently provides the only direct rail access to the Port of Liverpool but I could see it opened up for passengers with stations either reopened or built from new at at Edge Lane (near the new retail park that is due to be started in the next 12 months), West Derby Road, Utting Avenue and Walton. Unfortunately, as far as I am aware there is no junction on the same level at Kirkdale to complete the return loop to Central as the Bootle Branch passes under the Kirkby and Ormskirk branch at this point before emerging on the north side of Bank Hall Station and running parallel to the Southport lines before diving under them near Millers Bridge. I don't know if it would be possible to build a connection, but have heard there is possibility that the Canada Dock line may also be reopened for freight traffic to the docks. The connection to the Bootle Branch is actually in the deep cutting next to the underpass known as Atlantic Junction so whether a cord could be constructed from this alignment is I'm afraid no more than a guess. Pictures of the junction on this link.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/atlantic_dock_junction/index.shtml


As far as Lime Street is concerned I understand that Network Rail already plan to change the station approach which is why siding 6a platform will be widened after which it become platform 7. The present wide avenue between the current platform 7 and platform 8 will be narrowed to form a new platform 8, and the two existing platforms 8 & 9 will become 9 & 10. NR plan from 2016 further developments to the station approach as well as re-signalling the line from Lime Street to Liverpool South Parkway which together should improve capacity and headways.

As you may already be aware there are on going discussions between all the local councils in the region about pooling resources and as we have seen this has resulted in Merseytravel supporting the Halton curve which technically is outside their region. However, and perhaps quite rightly having the support of all local councils means that schemes such as this benefit so I don't have any problem with Merseytravel supporting such schemes such as Bidston to Wrexham and Kirkby to Wigan and or Skelmersdale, because in the end all these scheme benefit the greater Liverpool Region and thus the City of Liverpool overall. Where I do have concerns with Merseytravel is some of the schemes it has been involved in the past in Liverpool in particular, Merseytram, Liverpool South Parkway (miles from the airport!), HQ buildings, the list is endless and completely off topic so will no go any further.