Edinburgh Tour Operators: Bright Bus, Lothian (Majestic, Three Bridges) etc.

[MackTen]

I reckon Bright Bus Tours could be a brand that's being developed and taken national.

Adapt the livery in every destination, set up cheap and make a name for themselves, will make a killing.

If tourism returns...

I can't see it. I'd be surprised if they were making much, certainly not enough to catch the eyes of corporate as a potential money spinner, even if paying poor wages. The buses still need fuel, and a poorly conceived outfit (like Edinburgh) will spend a lot of time running around empty.

The only cheap thing here, is the buses. Lothian are probably alread costing up how long they could run at a loss by dropping fares, to compete against these guys this year, because price is just about the only thing this tour had going for it as a competitive advantage, last time I was actually close enough to smell the paint job.

With increasing emphasis on air quality right across the country, I'd say the days of tours being where you can deploy older buses and pretend like there's a good reason for doing so, are over. That's another potential response Lothian might have in the works here - launching the first all electric open topper.

 

[83G/84D]

No they’re not. They’re transferring to FSW but not for the Atlantic Coaster and not for Cornwall

Apologies, that will teach me to make assumptions.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I can't see it. I'd be surprised if they were making much, certainly not enough to catch the eyes of corporate as a potential money spinner, even if paying poor wages. The buses still need fuel, and a poorly conceived outfit (like Edinburgh) will spend a lot of time running around empty.

The only cheap thing here, is the buses. Lothian are probably alread costing up how long they could run at a loss by dropping fares, to compete against these guys this year, because price is just about the only thing this tour had going for it as a competitive advantage, last time I was actually close enough to smell the paint job.

With increasing emphasis on air quality right across the country, I'd say the days of tours being where you can deploy older buses and pretend like there's a good reason for doing so, are over. That's another potential response Lothian might have in the works here - launching the first all electric open topper.

They only actually need around 8-10 passengers per run to break even. As has been said already Bright Bus Tours was a very low risk venture. First were actually going to be expanding with a second tour route in Edinburgh, hence them buying and refurbishing more newer vehicles. Obviously Covid has put the brakes on that for now so the intention is to deploy most of the newer vehicles on the existing route in Edinburgh with a few being diverted to Aberdeen for a tour that's supposedly due to launch this summer.

In all honesty i don't think Lothian are all that worried, 2021 will be the 3rd year the tour has run and Lothian are yet to do anything drastic in retaliation other than some extra marking and a few additional second hand vehicles. If they were going to retaliate drastically as you allude to it would've happened by now.

As for your final point, if you read the replies above you would've seen that the buses First are using all comply to Euro 6 which is the same emissions standard that most of Lothians tour fleet complies to. I highly doubt Lothian will launch an electric open topper, the current fleet which Lothian invested extensively in is only 5 years old so won't be leaving anytime soon.

 

[OmniCity999]

I agree, there is potential for First to expand the brand further if they want to. It's quite distinctive and stands out, and clearly the model they had in Edinburgh with lower set up costs (thus lower risk) has worked somewhat in their favour. However i suspect as with many things First do the concept will be good/great but the implementation will be poor and it'll be gone within 5 years...

I agree. Issue with big companies such as First is they have great ideas, which is good, excucute them well then five years down the line when circumstances change, they expect nothing to have changed. Or they react badly to change.

Certain operations need nurturing from the start and then constant nurturing to continue. Big companies see this as too much expense and go for the easier and cheaper option, rather than doing full research into viable options.

That's another potential response Lothian might have in the works here - launching the first all electric open topper.

Except it wouldn't be the first would it. Transdev done electric conversions to, ironically, ex Lothian open toppers. Don't know if their still around mind.

I highly doubt Lothian will launch an electric open topper, the current fleet which Lothian invested extensively in is only 5 years old so won't be leaving anytime soon.

They won't replace them entirely, especially considering previous MD is gone.

 

[MackTen]

They only actually need around 8-10 passengers per run to break even. As has been said already Bright Bus Tours was a very low risk venture. First were actually going to be expanding with a second tour route in Edinburgh, hence them buying and refurbishing more newer vehicles. Obviously Covid has put the brakes on that for now so the intention is to deploy most of the newer vehicles on the existing route in Edinburgh with a few being diverted to Aberdeen for a tour that's supposedly due to launch this summer.

In all honesty i don't think Lothian are all that worried, 2021 will be the 3rd year the tour has run and Lothian are yet to do anything drastic in retaliation other than some extra marking and a few additional second hand vehicles. If they were going to retaliate drastically as you allude to it would've happened by now.

As for your final point, if you read the replies above you would've seen that the buses First are using all comply to Euro 6 which is the same emissions standard that most of Lothians tour fleet complies to. I highly doubt Lothian will launch an electric open topper, the current fleet which Lothian invested extensively in is only 5 years old so won't be leaving anytime soon.

IIIRC the tour fleet was bought before the City started ramping up talk of clean air zones etc. Edinburgh have been super aggressive in demanding ever cleaner buses, and unsurprisingly, the council owned operator has been only too willing to oblige, even if it means planning for the replacing of most of an already impressively young fleet. Would First do the same, if it faced a choice between being denied passage in the prime areas?

 

[OmniCity999]

IIIRC the tour fleet was bought before the City started ramping up talk of clean air zones etc. Edinburgh have been super aggressive in demanding ever cleaner buses, and unsurprisingly, the council owned operator has been only too willing to oblige, even if it means planning for the replacing of most of an already impressively young fleet. Would First do the same, if it faced a choice between being denied passage in the prime areas?

Fleets dont need to be replaced though, existing vehicles can be modified to Euro 6 (or better) for a fraction of the cost.

Why spend >£250,000 for each new vehicle when you can spend <£50,000 on a complete refresh, new engine, box and exhaust.

the answer is refreshing vehicles from the ground up takes time, and each one replaced is one off the road. So replacing fleet for fleet is convenient and clean. But it is doable in some cases.

I reckon this is what First are more likely to do, instead of replacing their entire west Lothian fleet, do essential upgrades and save money, i believe some StreetLites have already been done to Euro 6 standard, but @Jordan Adam is more likely to know the ins and outs of the First fleet than i am.

 

[MackTen]

The issue is, which fleet would be more prepared for a change of scenario, where the City either slaps an onerous X technology only for tour routes, or as a requirement for being allowed on historic streets.

Is it the company that did the bare minimum to meet current standards, or the company who probably won't bat an eyelid at having to replace five year old vehicles? I am assuming the new Lothian tour vehicles can be converted to service buses for a darn sight less than they would fetch in the second hand market, so that offsets a big chunk of the replacement cost.

And if Euro 5 upgrades required new exhausts, and Euro 6 upgrades required new engines, it doesn't take much imagination to think a refit to meet Euro 7 or whatever, will not be a very attractive option, not unless you foresee using the buses for a very long time, on a very profitable route.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Fleets dont need to be replaced though, existing vehicles can be modified to Euro 6 (or better) for a fraction of the cost.

Why spend >£250,000 for each new vehicle when you can spend <£50,000 on a complete refresh, new engine, box and exhaust.

the answer is refreshing vehicles from the ground up takes time, and each one replaced is one off the road. So replacing fleet for fleet is convenient and clean. But it is doable in some cases.

I reckon this is what First are more likely to do, instead of replacing their entire west Lothian fleet, do essential upgrades and save money, i believe some StreetLites have already been done to Euro 6 standard, but @Jordan Adam is more likely to know the ins and outs of the First fleet than i am.

I agree, people seem to forget that First invested extensively in the West Lothian and X38 fleet around 4-6 years ago, all these vehicles being Euro 5 or 6. You're not going to replace an asset that's only around 1/3rd through it's life. It just makes no sense as a business. West Lothian do have some older vehicles but they're in small numbers and with the exception of the two Darts (which are actually quite tidy anyway) have not yet depreciated enough to warrant withdrawal. The Darts will likely be replaced this year.

With refurbishing and upgrading vehicles a huge factor is viability. Obviously it's going to be far more viable for First to upgrade it's 14/64 plate Streetlites when compared to Lothians 04/55 plate B7RLEs.

The 2015 registered Streetlites are Euro 6, the others are Euro 5, however they will be getting conversions at some point. Pretty much all the conversions FSE have done have been on the E300s they operate on the X10, X35/X36 & X37 corridors since they operate in to Glasgow.

The issue is, which fleet would be more prepared for a change of scenario, where the City either slaps an onerous X technology only for tour routes, or as a requirement for being allowed on historic streets.

Is it the company that did the bare minimum to meet current standards, or the company who probably won't bat an eyelid at having to replace five year old vehicles? I am assuming the new Lothian tour vehicles can be converted to service buses for a darn sight less than they would fetch in the second hand market, so that offsets a big chunk of the replacement cost.

And if Euro 5 upgrades required new exhausts, and Euro 6 upgrades required new engines, it doesn't take much imagination to think a refit to meet Euro 7 or whatever, will not be a very attractive option, not unless you foresee using the buses for a very long time, on a very profitable route.

With the greatest of respects it does seem that you're just digging for reasons to be critical of First. The idea of the council making it a requirement that all buses on the tour routes are electric is nothing more than hypothetical and very unlikely to happen.

Euro 6 upgrades do not require new engines, it's just in the case of First's tour fleet it happened that the vehicles had already been refitted with Euro 4 engines prior to First buying them, so it is just a simple case of fitting a Eminox system.

IIIRC the tour fleet was bought before the City started ramping up talk of clean air zones etc. Edinburgh have been super aggressive in demanding ever cleaner buses, and unsurprisingly, the council owned operator has been only too willing to oblige, even if it means planning for the replacing of most of an already impressively young fleet. Would First do the same, if it faced a choice between being denied passage in the prime areas?

Would First do the same? You mean buy new vehicles for all it's routes that operate in to Edinburgh? Like they did in 2014-16 when they invested in nearly 60 brand new buses for aforementioned routes...

 

[MackTen]

The council has been closing streets to all traffic, buses and all, for air quality reasons. It has aspirations to go further, last I saw. So I think it is more than likely that in the near future, they get the bright idea to start saying that the only buses that can use certain streets, streets that you probably wouldn't want to divert away from if you are a tour operator, but would be less inconvenienced as a normal service, are buses with the best available technology. Like it or not, today, that is all electric. Sure, you need infrastructure and pots of money, but when you have an in at the council, well.....

 

[overthewater]

The council has been closing streets to all traffic, buses and all, for air quality reasons. It has aspirations to go further, last I saw. So I think it is more than likely that in the near future, they get the bright idea to start saying that the only buses that can use certain streets, streets that you probably wouldn't want to divert away from if you are a tour operator, but would be less inconvenienced as a normal service, are buses with the best available technology. Like it or not, today, that is all electric. Sure, you need infrastructure and pots of money, but when you have an in at the council, well.....

This is the same council that refused to make George IV bridge a bus only street, because they needed car assess to the City Chambers. I bet those cares are no Electric.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I agree, people seem to forget that First invested extensively in the West Lothian and X38 fleet around 4-6 years ago, all these vehicles being Euro 5 or 6. You're not going to replace an asset that's only around 1/3rd through it's life. It just makes no sense as a business. West Lothian do have some older vehicles but they're in small numbers and with the exception of the two Darts (which are actually quite tidy anyway) have not yet depreciated enough to warrant withdrawal. The Darts will likely be replaced this year.

With refurbishing and upgrading vehicles a huge factor is viability. Obviously it's going to be far more viable for First to upgrade it's 14/64 plate Streetlites when compared to Lothians 04/55 plate B7RLEs.

The 2015 registered Streetlites are Euro 6, the others are Euro 5, however they will be getting conversions at some point. Pretty much all the conversions FSE have done have been on the E300s they operate on the X10, X35/X36 & X37 corridors since they operate in to Glasgow.

With the greatest of respects it does seem that you're just digging for reasons to be critical of First. The idea of the council making it a requirement that all buses on the tour routes are electric is nothing more than hypothetical and very unlikely to happen.

Euro 6 upgrades do not require new engines, it's just in the case of First's tour fleet it happened that the vehicles had already been refitted with Euro 4 engines prior to First buying them, so it is just a simple case of fitting a Eminox system.

Would First do the same? You mean buy new vehicles for all it's routes that operate in to Edinburgh? Like they did in 2014-16 when they invested in nearly 60 brand new buses for aforementioned routes...

Don't seem to see many new vehicles in Edinburgh anymore, reappearance of the 05 Scania deckers along with a myriad of 54-09 plate B7RLEs.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Does anyone know if First West Lothian (Bright Bus Tours) is still going through with the second Edinburgh tour?

If so does anyone know the route it will take?
Thanks .

 

[CN04NRJ]

Does anyone know if First West Lothian (Bright Bus Tours) is still going through with the second Edinburgh tour?

If so does anyone know the route it will take?
Thanks .

Second this. Also what will be replacing the current fleet that was photographed minus their private registrations undergoing prep for transfer elsewhere?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Does anyone know if First West Lothian (Bright Bus Tours) is still going through with the second Edinburgh tour?

If so does anyone know the route it will take?
Thanks .

Second this. Also what will be replacing the current fleet that was photographed minus their private registrations undergoing prep for transfer elsewhere?

The second route was never announced so we don't know what the route would've been other than what's been speculated.

First acquired 13 Enviro400s and 2 Trident/ALX400s around a year ago for the second route, 7 have been diverted to Devon while the other 6 have been retained by FSE, they're currently in indoor storage at a number of depots and from my understanding will be going on the existing route once it restarts. I've listed the vehicles below.

Trident/ALX400 (In storage at Caledonia)
32795 - LX51FNT
32796 - LX06AHD

Enviro400 (At various depots including Aberdeen, Caledonia and Larbert)
33519 - LK08FND
33891 - LK08NVN
33892 - LK08NVO
33893 - LK08NVP
33898 - LK58CNF
33899 - LK58CNN

In addition the 7 Enviro400s diverted to Devon & Cornwall are.
33426 - LK08NVJ
33427 - LK58KHL
33428 - LK58KHP
33575 - SN09CDU
33592 - SN09CFF
33600 - SN09CFU
33601 - SN09CFV

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Also what will be replacing the current fleet that was photographed minus their private registrations undergoing prep for transfer elsewhere?

Wasn't it ex London e400s that were heading to Edinburgh?

 

[Graham Alexand]

The second route was never announced so we don't know what the route would've been other than what's been speculated.

First acquired 13 Enviro400s and 2 Trident/ALX400s around a year ago for the second route, 7 have been diverted to Devon while the other 6 have been retained by FSE, they're currently in indoor storage at a number of depots and from my understanding will be going on the existing route once it restarts. I've listed the vehicles below.

Trident/ALX400 (In storage at Caledonia)
32795 - LX51FNT
32796 - LX06AHD

Enviro400 (At various depots including Aberdeen, Caledonia and Larbert)
33519 - LK08FND
33891 - LK08NVN
33892 - LK08NVO
33893 - LK08NVP
33898 - LK58CNF
33899 - LK58CNN

In addition the 7 Enviro400s diverted to Devon & Cornwall are.
33426 - LK08NVJ
33427 - LK58KHL
33428 - LK58KHP
33575 - SN09CDU
33592 - SN09CFF
33600 - SN09CFU
33601 - SN09CFV

Thanks for this.

Are the ones at Devon and Cornwall there "permanently" or will they be coming to First West Lothian (Bright Bus Tours)in the future?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Thanks for this.

Are the ones at Devon and Cornwall there "permanently" or will they be coming to First West Lothian (Bright Bus Tours)in the future?

33426 (LK08 NVJ) is in service in full Atlantic Coasters livery, while I've also found photos of 33427 (LK58 KHL) and 33601 (SN09 CFV) in what appear to be a similar/same base livery. So certainly some look to be staying, if not all.

 

[On the Buses]

The second route was never announced so we don't know what the route would've been other than what's been speculated.

First acquired 13 Enviro400s and 2 Trident/ALX400s around a year ago for the second route, 7 have been diverted to Devon while the other 6 have been retained by FSE, they're currently in indoor storage at a number of depots and from my understanding will be going on the existing route once it restarts. I've listed the vehicles below.

Trident/ALX400 (In storage at Caledonia)
32795 - LX51FNT
32796 - LX06AHD

Enviro400 (At various depots including Aberdeen, Caledonia and Larbert)
33519 - LK08FND
33891 - LK08NVN
33892 - LK08NVO
33893 - LK08NVP
33898 - LK58CNF
33899 - LK58CNN

In addition the 7 Enviro400s diverted to Devon & Cornwall are.
33426 - LK08NVJ
33427 - LK58KHL
33428 - LK58KHP
33575 - SN09CDU
33592 - SN09CFF
33600 - SN09CFU
33601 - SN09CFV

They weren’t diverted to Devon. They were bought separately by First South West (and are for Cornwall)

 

[Baileygirl]

The second route was never announced so we don't know what the route would've been other than what's been speculated.

First acquired 13 Enviro400s and 2 Trident/ALX400s around a year ago for the second route, 7 have been diverted to Devon while the other 6 have been retained by FSE, they're currently in indoor storage at a number of depots and from my understanding will be going on the existing route once it restarts. I've listed the vehicles below.

Trident/ALX400 (In storage at Caledonia)
32795 - LX51FNT
32796 - LX06AHD

Enviro400 (At various depots including Aberdeen, Caledonia and Larbert)
33519 - LK08FND
33891 - LK08NVN
33892 - LK08NVO
33893 - LK08NVP
33898 - LK58CNF
33899 - LK58CNN

In addition the 7 Enviro400s diverted to Devon & Cornwall are.
33426 - LK08NVJ
33427 - LK58KHL
33428 - LK58KHP
33575 - SN09CDU
33592 - SN09CFF
33600 - SN09CFU
33601 - SN09CFV

Most of these except the Devon ones are sitting in Livingston depot

 

[cnjb8]

The second route was never announced so we don't know what the route would've been other than what's been speculated.

First acquired 13 Enviro400s and 2 Trident/ALX400s around a year ago for the second route, 7 have been diverted to Devon while the other 6 have been retained by FSE, they're currently in indoor storage at a number of depots and from my understanding will be going on the existing route once it restarts. I've listed the vehicles below.

Trident/ALX400 (In storage at Caledonia)
32795 - LX51FNT
32796 - LX06AHD

Enviro400 (At various depots including Aberdeen, Caledonia and Larbert)
33519 - LK08FND
33891 - LK08NVN
33892 - LK08NVO
33893 - LK08NVP
33898 - LK58CNF
33899 - LK58CNN

In addition the 7 Enviro400s diverted to Devon & Cornwall are.
33426 - LK08NVJ
33427 - LK58KHL
33428 - LK58KHP
33575 - SN09CDU
33592 - SN09CFF
33600 - SN09CFU
33601 - SN09CFV

I was wondering if First would plan ahead with their BBT expansion in Edinburgh with the rise of the staycation, apparently not!

Most of these except the Devon ones are sitting in Livingston depot

As On the Buses has already stated, they are for Cornwall. The Presidents South West has received from BBT are for Devon I believe, but Devon and Cornwall routes come under First South West

 

[christopherrfc]

• PM0000923/352 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Holyrood Distillery, Dynamic Earth, Holyrood Palace, Royal yacht Britannia, Newhaven Harbour, Botanical Gardens
  Service number: The Britannia Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

• PM0000923/347 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Lothian Road, Chamber Street, Regent Road
  Service number: The City Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

 

[scotrail158713]

• PM0000923/352 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Holyrood Distillery, Dynamic Earth, Holyrood Palace, Royal yacht Britannia, Newhaven Harbour, Botanical Gardens
  Service number: The Britannia Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

• PM0000923/347 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Lothian Road, Chamber Street, Regent Road
  Service number: The City Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

There we go then. It'll be interesting to see how this goes.

 

[R Scandle]

• PM0000923/352 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Holyrood Distillery, Dynamic Earth, Holyrood Palace, Royal yacht Britannia, Newhaven Harbour, Botanical Gardens
  Service number: The Britannia Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

• PM0000923/347 Registered​

  FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
  Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Lothian Road, Chamber Street, Regent Road
  Service number: The City Tour
  Service type: Limited Stop
  Effective date: 27 May 2021

Where is this "St Andrews Square" to which they allude?

 

[mb88]

PM0000923/347[/URL] Registered[/HEADING]
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: St Andrews Square, Edinburgh to St Andrews Square, Edinburgh via Lothian Road, Chamber Street, Regent Road
Service number: The City Tour
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 27 May 2021
[/LIST]

That's an extremely short tour

 

[overthewater]

Where is this "St Andrews Square" to which they allude?

Its the big square next to the bus station and Harvey nicks

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Its the big square next to the bus station and Harvey nicks

From what I knew, no such square existed. I think that’s what @R Scandle is implying.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm pretty sure that's autogenerated... its pretty common for interesting spellings or place names to pop up on service registrations.

 

[OmniCity999]

Pedantic
Adjective
giving too much attention to formal rules or small details

- They were being unnecessarily pedantic by insisting that it matters that St Andrew Square doesn't have an "s" (or apostrophe "s") even though local dialect/slang has adopted it.

- "Don't worry" Jock said "I know where you mean"

(or the tour is starting and ending at the Glasgow destination)

/humour

 

[GusB]

St Andrews Square is not far from Princess Street. Shurely any fule no dat.

 

[cammyeaston]

It's a shame they won't be going for the ever popular Waverly Bridge...