Edinburgh to Glasgow - lack of WiFi, help needed

[magpie]

Hello everyone,

I'm a journalist doing a story about WiFi (or the lack of therein) on ScotRail's trains for a national Sunday newspaper in Scotland, specifically, on the Edinburgh to Glasgow 'flagship' route. The story is written but I need a couple of case studies (I have one, so need just one more) from people who travel on that service regularly and who would be described or self-describe as 'businesspeople' - i.e. someone who might use their computer/iPad/smartphone more on the train if they could get decent data speeds.

If anyone fits this bill and would like to be in the paper, please could you contact me ASAP.

Thanks,

John

 

[Clip]

I cant help you with your main question but I'm just wondering if it really is such a big issue for which is generally(or can be) such a short commutable journey. Do the 3g speeds supplied by the phone service provider not give decent enough coverage which would be part of their monthly charge - paid for by their own employers? What about mobile modems too?

Im just struggling to see the need for what appears to be a non-story to force Scotrail into a very expensive roll-out which they would probably charge for anyway.

 

[Minilad]

Journalist tries to whip up a storm in a teacup about the railways.
Now, where have we heard that one before

 

[magpie]

I cant help you with your main question but I'm just wondering if it really is such a big issue for which is generally(or can be) such a short commutable journey. Do the 3g speeds supplied by the phone service provider not give decent enough coverage which would be part of their monthly charge - paid for by their own employers? What about mobile modems too?

Im just struggling to see the need for what appears to be a non-story to force Scotrail into a very expensive roll-out which they would probably charge for anyway.

It is a big issue given the stature of the two cities and their complete domination of the Scottish economy. The 3G speeds are terrible and there's two drop out points, not including three tunnels. Dongles work (I have one) but are slow and, as mentioned, drop out a lot.

Being as objective as I can be, it's not a non-story at all. Business people are hacked off with the situation and Transport Scotland have not only asked (and received) a feasibility study from SR but they are making it a pre-requisite for whomever gets the SR franchise when it's next up (2014) that WiFi be introduced so... if TS want it and will oblige the franchise holder to install it, the service is wanted for business and cosmetic reasons and the fact that EC and VT have it, it's a biiiiiiiig story (and it's all mine, but the TV news are picking it up also).

Oh, and there's a maximum of six sets (three in each direction) on the line at any one time, a line length of 40 miles, etc. - this wouldn't be expensive.

Plus the BUS that goes from the centre of Edinburgh to Edin Airport has WiFi...

Your news sense needs picking up a bit, I'm afraid!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Journalist tries to whip up a storm in a teacup about the railways.
Now, where have we heard that one before

*sigh*

You're not getting it either. It's not even ScotRail that are responsible, it's Transport Scotland and the bigger picture is that Scotland is a master at talking the talk about being open for business when the reality is often total apathy and lack of verve.

It's really a political story but, feel free to ignore the question and attack the messenger. Much appreciated and thanks for all your help!

 

[Minilad]

Your investigative skills are not that good if you think a maximum of 6 sets are needed. What else are you getting wrong with your report

 

[magpie]

Your investigative skills are not that good if you think a maximum of 6 sets are needed. What else are you getting wrong with your report

That's not what I said. Thanks for your input though. Very helpful.

 

[Clip]

Im well aware that both EC and VT have wifi but if your not in first class then its rather expensive. And given that first class fares that are normally used by business people are going to be the full whack then again the ticket is paying for its upkeep and maintenance. For a 50 minute trip it,to me, hardly seems worthy of the investment to me.

But if the powers that be have deemed it necessary and the passengers - could you link me to any reports of them requesting it at all - then who am i to question their wisdom

 

[Minilad]

It is a big issue given the stature of the two cities and their complete domination of the Scottish economy. The 3G speeds are terrible and there's two drop out points, not including three tunnels. Dongles work (I have one) but are slow and, as mentioned, drop out a lot.

Being as objective as I can be, it's not a non-story at all. Business people are hacked off with the situation and Transport Scotland have not only asked (and received) a feasibility study from SR but they are making it a pre-requisite for whomever gets the SR franchise when it's next up (2014) that WiFi be introduced so... if TS want it and will oblige the franchise holder to install it, the service is wanted for business and cosmetic reasons and the fact that EC and VT have it, it's a biiiiiiiig story (and it's all mine, but the TV news are picking it up also).

Oh, and there's a maximum of six sets (three in each direction) on the line at any one time, a line length of 40 miles, etc. - this wouldn't be expensive.

Plus the BUS that goes from the centre of Edinburgh to Edin Airport has WiFi...

Your news sense needs picking up a bit, I'm afraid!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


*sigh*

You're not getting it either. It's not even ScotRail that are responsible, it's Transport Scotland and the bigger picture is that Scotland is a master at talking the talk about being open for business when the reality is often total apathy and lack of verve.

It's really a political story but, feel free to ignore the question and attack the messenger. Much appreciated and thanks for all your help!

Isn't it. Seems to me thats what you was trying to say

 

[magpie]

Isn't it. Seems to me thats what you was trying to say

The bit 'at any one time' seems to have thrown you. I was kind of trying to make the distinction between SR and, say, southeastern with it's 3,000 services in and out of London and hundreds of sets, and a 40-mile track with a maximum of six sets on it at, for the third occasion, any one time.

Feel free to quote me - but not selectively if that's OK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Im well aware that both EC and VT have wifi but if your not in first class then its rather expensive. And given that first class fares that are normally used by business people are going to be the full whack then again the ticket is paying for its upkeep and maintenance. For a 50 minute trip it,to me, hardly seems worthy of the investment to me.

But if the powers that be have deemed it necessary and the passengers - could you link me to any reports of them requesting it at all - then who am i to question their wisdom

There wasn't much in the papers about it at the time but ScotRail told me this:

Hi,

As requested.

Appreciate confirm receipt

Regards,


Background info
The current franchise agreement includes an option in which Scottish
Ministers requires ScotRail to arrange for the production of a detailed
report, including costs and timescales, for the introduction of WiFi on the
Edinburgh-Glasgow route.

Ministers exercised that option in December 2009, when it asked ScotRail to
produce a feasibility study on the costs and benefits of WiFi on the
Edinburgh-Glasgow, Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness and
Aberdeen-Inverness routes.

Quote
A ScotRail spokesman said: “We have delivered our obligations in full by
lodging a consultants’ report on Wi-Fi in May 2010 with a scope extended
beyond Edinburgh-Glasgow. Transport Scotland is now considering this
proposal.


First ScotRail Limited. Registered in Scotland No. SC185018. Registered
Office: 395 King Street, Aberdeen AB24 5RP

First ScotRail Limited. Registered in Scotland No. SC185018. Registered office: 395 King Street, Aberdeen, AB24 5RP.

***

Like I said, there are cosmetic reasons behind the desire to have WiFi and, as I've reported, a level of 'business' disquiet that there's no WiFi at present. For someone (like my first case study) who commutes every day, that's the thick end of 10 hours a week when they could be working smarter with WiFi...

 

[glenbogle]

Our local Stagecoach double deckers have free Wi-Fi !!!

The Turbostars which use the Glq-Edb route also use the Glq/Edb - Abd/Inv route where Wifi would be beneficial as would power points in Standard class.

 

[magpie]

Our local Stagecoach double deckers have free Wi-Fi !!!

The Turbostars which use the Glq-Edb route also use the Glq/Edb - Abd/Inv route where Wifi would be beneficial as would power points in Standard class.

Ah, Glen. Come to save me from the Luddites... Do you think you could help me with my enquiry? Arguing the toss is not really why I came here tonight...

 

[Minilad]

So Scotrail have carried out the obligations. Which was to have produced a report.
And the proposal is being looked at in time for the next franchise.
Exactly what is the story here ?

And the six sets thing is a red herring in my opinion

 

[Jordeh]

Was there really any need to attack the journalist like that? Wifi strikes me as an essential part of getting people out of cars and on to trains where their time can be spent far more productively.

Wifi's beginning to crop up on more and more on buses and coaches, it may well be cheaper to install on these than trains but in a modern railway it's very much needed. I find it very useful on Trent Barton's Red Arrow service between Derby and Nottingham for instance.

 

[magpie]

So Scotrail have carried out the obligations. Which was to have produced a report.
And the proposal is being looked at in time for the next franchise.
Exactly what is the story here ?

And the six sets thing is a red herring in my opinion

They have. The paucity of the obligations is part of the story, plus that which I have already mentioned, and lots of other stuff (lengthy story which I've neither the time nor the inclination to reproduce here) that you'll just have to keep an eye out for.

That is your privilege. We'll agree to differ.

 

[Clip]

Do you have the feasibility study handy? I.E how much they said it would cost to buy and install?

What happens if what they have give TS is far higher then even they imagined and maybe the costs just dont add up - again for such a short journey?

Though i would like to read the final story you do including the case studies you have which are showing their need for wifi on the route.

Whats your timescale for this feature?

Ah, Glen. Come to save me from the Luddites... Do you think you could help me with my enquiry? Arguing the toss is not really why I came here tonight...

Im not arguing any toss - Im asking about the actual need for something on such a short journey - calling me a luddite for asking questions back is a little bit harsh - and if you or anyone feels that im 'attacking' you then that was not my intention.

You have come hear to ask questions and i am simply asking some back.

 

[magpie]

Was there really any need to attack the journalist like that? Wifi strikes me as an essential part of getting people out of cars and on to trains where their time can be spent far more productive. Wifi's beginning to crop up on more and more on buses and coaches, it may well be cheaper to install on these than trains but in a modern railway it's very much needed.

Ah yes, the quote I have from Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce makes that point (getting people onto trains).

Some people don't like journalists - I'm used to it - but I thank you for your support.

This thread is quite lively but not, sadly, offering me the information I seek. I guess I'll have to do it the old-fashioned way and collar someone at Haymarket tomorrow..!

 

[Clip]

Was there really any need to attack the journalist like that? Wifi strikes me as an essential part of getting people out of cars and on to trains where their time can be spent far more productively.

Wifi's beginning to crop up on more and more on buses and coaches, it may well be cheaper to install on these than trains but in a modern railway it's very much needed. I find it very useful on Trent Barton's Red Arrow service between Derby and Nottingham for instance.

Do people use wifi in their cars then? Wifi may well be cropping up more and more on coaches and buses but again i feel this is unnecessary - but its also probably far cheaper given they dont go trhough as many tunnels nor have the restrictions on the installation of their devices like those on the railway would need.

 

[Minilad]

I don't know many rail franchises that will spend money if they are not obligated to do so.
Scotrail, by the sounds of it, are not obligated to install wi-fi on their trains as yet so why would they. I am sure that if TS adds this requirement to the next franchise then you will get your wish

 

[magpie]

Do you have the feasibility study handy? I.E how much they said it would cost to buy and install?

What happens if what they have give TS is far higher then even they imagined and maybe the costs just dont add up - again for such a short journey?

Though i would like to read the final story you do including the case studies you have which are showing their need for wifi on the route.

Whats your timescale for this feature?

Im not arguing any toss - Im asking about the actual need for something on such a short journey - calling me a luddite for asking questions back is a little bit harsh - and if you or anyone feels that im 'attacking' you then that was not my intention.

You have come hear to ask questions and i am simply asking some back.

I asked TS and SR for the report - they declined to give it to me or the paper and said that I could get a redacted one on FoI...

Assuming I get the 2nd case study (which will add to the other business-related quotes in the main body of the piece) it might be in the paper on Sunday. No real rush - SR concur with me on that one.

I wasn't talking about you so much when I said 'arguing the toss', a couple of responses, as you can see, have been quite aggressive and rude for, as far as I can see, no real reason. I'm not the only one to have noticed this.

 

[Jordeh]

Do people use wifi in their cars then? Wifi may well be cropping up more and more on coaches and buses but again i feel this is unnecessary - but its also probably far cheaper given they dont go trhough as many tunnels nor have the restrictions on the installation of their devices like those on the railway would need.

No, precisely why trains offering Wifi would offer an even more productive use of people's time than driving a car.

I doubt many bus operators would be installing it across their bus fleets if it didn't attract customers or no one cared, perhaps it's just not useful to yourself.

 

[magpie]

I don't know many rail franchises that will spend money if they are not obligated to do so.
Scotrail, by the sounds of it, are not obligated to install wi-fi on their trains as yet so why would they. I am sure that if TS adds this requirement to the next franchise then you will get your wish

I agree.

It's not my wish particularly - I don't use the service that often and I can write without WiFi no problems at all.

SR should have been asked to do this either in 2004, or in 2008 at the 3yr extension. I do specifically make the point that SR is not a charity and the story is not about SR, it's about TS. This is what people are saying - not me - I am the reporter. It's my story, that's all. You're having trouble devolving what I do for a living from my travel preferences or SR's modus operandi. They've done what they were asked to do - and the requirements are, I'm being told, insufficient for a number of business travellers.

I really don't want to have to point this out again, if that's OK.

 

[Clip]

I asked TS and SR for the report - they declined to give it to me or the paper and said that I could get a redacted one on FoI...

Assuming I get the 2nd case study (which will add to the other business-related quotes in the main body of the piece) it might be in the paper on Sunday. No real rush - SR concur with me on that one.

I wasn't talking about you so much when I said 'arguing the toss', a couple of responses, as you can see, have been quite aggressive and rude for, as far as I can see, no real reason. I'm not the only one to have noticed this.

Well only one case study so far and its going out on sunday is pushing it I reckon - get out and meet the commuters and find out what they think along with the redacted report is what I would do - find out if the people who you think would use the thing actually would want the cost of it passed on to them..

No, precisely why trains offering Wifi would offer an even more productive use of people's time than driving a car.
I doubt many bus operators would be installing it across their bus fleets if it didn't attract customers or no one cared, perhaps it's just not useful to yourself.

I doubt that they have actually 'attracted' that many extra passengers just because they have wifi - I mean come on a bus journey is generally longer then a car journey so the benefits just cancel themselves out dont they?


Of course - if there are figures that have shown a steep rise in bus patronage since this was introduced then fine,I have no problem. But if it has made a negligible difference to how many people are using the services then they have basically just wasted their money and could be causing a proper nuisance to other uses - there is no 'quiet coach' on a bus is there

 

[magpie]

I dont mean to be rude but you have ten times the amount of radiation leak from chernobyl, still emitting from fukashima in japan,

You have an earth core and crust prone to huge earthquakes at any given moment.

And you have millions suffering from poverty.

Is a headline on scotrail's wifi, or lack off, so neccessary?

It's a bit like when someone gets arrested for shoplifting, them saying to the police: 'shouldn't you be out catching rapists and murderers?'

I pitched the story to the business editor (I'm primarily a business reporter - famine and tectonic movement are not really my beat) and he liked it, asked me to write it and when it goes in, I get paid. As this is how I earn my living I would say that it's important I get stories in the paper so really you need to pitch that question (if you want to make a fool of yourself, again) to the person who selects the stories. And the person who selects the stories - do you think it's personal preference...? Sometimes, it is, bu not often; it is, as I am sure you've now grasped, the idea to get stories in the paper that will interest readers of the particular sections.

In this case, that means the business section and, as I've stated about half a dozen times now, I've been getting helpful feedback from the business community about this issue.

Would that I were getting it here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well only one case study so far and its going out on sunday is pushing it I reckon - get out and meet the commuters and find out what they think along with the redacted report is what I would do - find out if the people who you think would use the thing actually would want the cost of it passed on to them..

I doubt that they have actually 'attracted' that many extra passengers just because they have wifi - I mean come on a bus journey is generally longer then a car journey so the benefits just cancel themselves out dont they?


Of course - if there are figures that have shown a steep rise in bus patronage since this was introduced then fine,I have no problem. But if it has made a negligible difference to how many people are using the services then they have basically just wasted their money and could be causing a proper nuisance to other uses - there is no 'quiet coach' on a bus is there

The case studies are a 'box out' addition to the main body copy which has a good deal more feedback/quotes (chambers of commerce, TS, southeastern, Thalys, Rotterdam Marketing, etc.) I think I said that already?

I have actually considered and acted on the other recommendations you make - I do actually know what I am doing. You missed a few out though, so I'll take your response under advisement!

Jesus, at this rate, I'll have typed the whole ****ing story out so, I'll retire and if anyone can assist me with the headline reason for starting this thread, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

Thanks!

 

[Clip]

I never said you didnt know what you were doing - theres probably loads of solutions to getting the answers you want out there but I actually wasnt going to insult your intelligence by listing them - but from what you had written of only having one case saturday and you want the copy to go to print on sat night it seems you have your work cut out for you.

Out of interest - why have you got stuff through from Southeastern? They dont have it and they certainly shift more people over a far greater distance then SR do so it would be interesting to hear what they were saying.

 

[magpie]

I never said you didnt know what you were doing - theres probably loads of solutions to getting the answers you want out there but I actually wasnt going to insult your intelligence by listing them - but from what you had written of only having one case saturday and you want the copy to go to print on sat night it seems you have your work cut out for you.

Out of interest - why have you got stuff through from Southeastern? They dont have it and they certainly shift more people over a far greater distance then SR do so it would be interesting to hear what they were saying.

Like I said, I've got loads of quotes throughout the piece from numerous different people and bodies. I probably only need one case study but am getting two for completeness. The rest of it (1,300 words) is all written, so I'm (forgive the pun) right on track. Up to the biz ed when he runs it, of course. It's not particularly time sensitive.

Southeastern - I'm happy to tell you why I approached them and what they were saying but I'd rather not put it all down here - chiefly because I can't be bothered. If you want to call me then let me know and I'll PM you my number.

 

[michael769]

Oh, and there's a maximum of six sets (three in each direction) on the line at any one time, a line length of 40 miles, etc. - this wouldn't be expensive.

Rising to 12 sets (each train is doubled up to 6 cars) at peak, plus another couple of sets at each end waiting for departure - so make that 16 at peak plus you need to add in a couple of sets as spares. Not to mention the extra infrastructure to provide the backhaul links in an area with erratic to no-existent 3G reception.

While this might be of interest to some business users with a poor work-life balance, I doubt it is as high on their priorities as punctuality, overcrowding or the woeful unreliability of the trains in poor weather conditions.

 

[snail]

While this might be of interest to some business users with a poor work-life balance, I doubt it is as high on their priorities as punctuality, overcrowding or the woeful unreliability of the trains in poor weather conditions.

Why has this topic attracted the anti-WiFi brigade in numbers? I can't respond to this request as I'm not in Scotland but I have to say that I find Virgin's WiFi very useful on trips to London, both as a business and as a leisure traveller. With the increasing number of tablets and smartphones around being able to connect reliably during a journey adds to the alternatives available during it. Not everyone (particularly if commuting) wants to stare out of the window or even read a book or newspaper.

And why is it an either/or in terms of solving the other problems you mention? Can't you have WiFi on punctual, reliable trains with everyone getting a seat?

 

[sprinterguy]

Fitting Wifi on Scotrail trains would be/is an issue that stretches beyond the Edinburgh to Glasgow service, as by the nature of the way that the same units are not allocated to the E-G shuttle each day then the whole Scotrail class 170 fleet, at the very least, would have to be fitted with Wifi (59 trains), which could also potentially bring the benefits of Wifi to the other Scotrail long distance services between Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness. Whether this would be more cost effective than only having Wifi enabled between Edinburgh and Glasgow for whichever trains were working that route would depend on how much additional infrastructure would be required to maintain signal strength across more mountainous areas. I can certainly see the logic of focusing on the case for Wifi on the mostly "business-centric" Edinburgh to Glasgow flows though.

Additionally, although it is not really relevant to the central argument here, with a journey time of around fifty minutes and turn around time at each end of the route their is a requirement for eight single units to work the Edinburgh to Glasgow service and as michael769 says, having also made the point above, they tend to work as pairs of trains during peak hours, doubling the train requirement.

I can't see why there should be so much negative feedback to the concept of fitting Scotrail trains with a feature that will make the service more attractive to a number of passengers, though I do appreciate the arguments about the cost-efectiveness of such a measure.

 

[Bon Accord]

Snail,
They're the same people who would argue over the colour of grass.
Many members of this forum whine and moan about the journalistic language used in certain newspapers, yet a good number of those very same members use the same such language in this forum - a prime example being the various trespass threads.

 

[rail-britain]

I asked TS and SR for the report - they declined to give it to me or the paper and said that I could get a redacted one on FoI...

ScotRail can pretty much decline any request, for commercial reasons
However, TS cannot do so, but as you have found they can provide you with an edited version
I would suggest you apply for the full version, which will be provided at cost
The media organisation you work for should be able to arrange this for you, but it may take up to 28 days for it to be made available (in full format)
However if you urgently need the edited copy then you should be able to obtain this within 7 days and will provide the core (basic) information you need (which makes interesting reading)

As for the WiFi itself
ScotRail produced a report, which included details of demand, reception, options, installation, maintenance, and costs
Transport Scotland decided not to take the matter any further as there are currently other priorities but outlined it would consider it for inclusion within the first 36 months of the next franchise (which would also include the new rolling stock on EGIP)
Due to the diagrams, at least 70% of the Class 170 fleet would have to have the equipment installed before the service could be launched (to guarantee that all units on the Glasgow - Edinburgh service would have WiFi installed), as a result ScotRail included two options for this
Transport Scotland then consider as this too short term as these units would then be cascaded elsewhere across Scotland or returned to lease company and the WiFi equipment would then either become redundant or have to be removed (at their cost)

The next issue is the varying, and pretty much poor, reception quality along the Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High corridor due to the topography
ScotRail had T-mobile perform a survey and the results showed several locations where there was no reception, and so would have to install additional transmitters (along with costs as at 2010)
This however excluded several tunnels

With respect to WiFi in other modes of transport
It is actually surprising to find many cars do actually now have WiFi installed and some now even have it as standard
I myself use WiFi whilst in the car, but I do also use it between Glasgow and Edinburgh, using either a 3 dongle via Falkirk High / Grahamston / Carstairs, or on East Coast First Class (I have still to travel on a Cross Country train where it is fitted and active)