Ellesmere Port to Helsby

[Robin Edwards]

I'm probably missing something obvious here but will ask anyway!
Realtime Trains is not showing any services between these stations yet thetrainline.com are selling tickets for a direct albeit a limited service? Is the Northern service cancelled under current timetable and why the discrepancy?

 

[TheSel]

It's long since been a line with frequent P-coded (and other) cancellations of the already sparse passenger service. The present ban on non-contractual overtime at Northern does little to alleviate the situation.

RTT suggests the evening return service last ran on 10 July, and the morning return one on the 11th. It also suggests (screen shot below) the service will run tomorrow. Don't bet your mortgage on it, though. Plenty time for it to be removed 'due to a short notice change to the timetable'.

 

[185]

Last few weeks, train performance on that line (eg Ince & Elton) was said to be as low as 10-15% when P-coding is included.

Train last ran on Thursday morning, however they abandoned the afternoon train. Even before any overtime ban, the service was mostly missing.

-No replacement bus, nothing. How to totally destroy a train service using P-coding.

 

[Robin Edwards]

thanks for both responses - I'm glad I don't need to use that line to get to work!

 

[frodshamfella]

Hoping Merseyrail gets hold of the line, and provides a usable service with their class 777s

 

[D7666]

Hoping Merseyrail gets hold of the line, and provides a usable service with their class 777s

Not entirely sure why Merseyrail would want to take on such a basket case operation especially as it goes outside Merseyside in Cheshire.

Yes I know Bache and Chester are also in Cheshire - but that route is logical operationally and commercially; Ellesmere Port / Helsby is not really either.

To work it with by 777 you'd need at least one more complete 777 overall to the fleet - plus quite a lot more 777/1 battery retro fitted.

A 230 shuttle might make more sense - but even then would it ever make a business case ?

Pretty sure these days of looking into reinstatements and alternative routes this one would have been done by now if it ever had a case.

 

[The exile]

Not entirely sure why Merseyrail would want to take on such a basket case operation especially as it goes outside Merseyside in Cheshire.

Yes I know Bache and Chester are also in Cheshire - but that route is logical operationally and commercially; Ellesmere Port / Helsby is not really either.

To work it with by 777 you'd need at least one more complete 777 overall to the fleet - plus quite a lot more 777/1 battery retro fitted.

A 230 shuttle might make more sense - but even then would it ever make a business case ?

Pretty sure these days of looking into reinstatements and alternative routes this one would have been done by now if it ever had a case.

Agreed there is probably no case but a) before the battery 777s have proved themselves any Merseyrsil extension is absolutely a non-starter and b) “merely” increasing the service to a point at which it becomes usable is nowhere near as “sexy” as a full reopening from scratch!

 

[D7666]

Agreed there is probably no case but a) before the battery 777s have proved themselves any Merseyrsil extension is absolutely a non-starter and b) “merely” increasing the service to a point at which it becomes usable is nowhere near as “sexy” as a full reopening from scratch!

Yep.

Headbolt as a service is a clear winner; without yet again getting into is it allowed or not third rail debate (other thread q.v.), I am pretty sure had battery not been available, it would have got third rails. Headbolt makes it commercially, even equally not as 'sexy' as a full re-open.

I just don't see how something through the middle of Stanlow refinery even approaches any of this.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Merseyrail wouldn't need to run regular services over it, but it would make far more sense for them to run a battery 777 to Helsby and back a couple of times per day to fully replace the Northern DMU.

I suspect there would be some demand for Helsby area towards the Wirral/Birkenhead catchment at the height of the morning/evening peak.

There is, or rather was, some demand on the morning train from the Wirral area to Stanlow, you used to get a few changing at Ellesmere Port - but the service became so unreliable, then the station temporarily closed which killed it off. At the time, it was fairly well known that the station useage statistics were also unreliable as for some reason, Merseyrail roaming RPOs were still writing out paper blue and white manual tickets on the routes South of Hooton, until the TVMs went in and Penalty Fares expanded.

The ill fated Yorkshire-Manchester-Ellesmere Port service did start attracting some regulars to Elton and Ellesmere Port, but again, unreliability killed the demand in the end. I suspect there is some unrealised demand on this line, not much, but enough for a couple of through trains.

 

[D7666]

Surely stating unreliabilty of the service in this example is the wrong way round to be looking at this one; it was so low in usage it always fell at the top of the list to cancel when short of stock / crew / other issues. If it was carrying more passengers, it would not get hit so often.

 

[The exile]

Merseyrail wouldn't need to run regular services over it, but it would make far more sense for them to run a battery 777 to Helsby and back a couple of times per day to fully replace the Northern DMU.

Going to need several more of them, then.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Tried to catch the rarely running 1906 from Ellesmere Port just now but was thwarted by a late running Merseyrail Electric connection (after Id bought my ticket and the wrong one at that). Anybody know why my connection was delayed for 10 mins at Bebington?

According to RTT, the 6 min connection wasn’t held.

 

[emoaconr]

With the LCRCA mayor featuring the construction of Daresbury Station between Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay in his re-election pledges, it may hint towards a potential Merseyrail extension via Helsby and Hooton. The formerly hourly Liverpool Lime Street services to Bank Quay were dropped during the pandemic, as were the Ellesmere Port to Leeds service.
The service as is remains poor, and there's little to no prospect of Stanlow & Thornton reopening.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

According to RTT, the 6 min connection wasn’t held.

Interestingly the TVM at Little Sutton sold me a CDR to Frodsham valid "via Ellesmere Port only" - an impossible return journey starting at 1845 (or indeed anytime SX). There are no return tickets from Little Sutton, Overpool or Ellesmere Port to Helsby via "Any permitted" so the cheapest way to do a triangular circuit ELP-HSB-CTR-HOO-ELP is to book a CDR to Frodsham where there is an Any permitted option.

With a queue behind me, I accidentally bought the wrong ticket but since I abandoned my roundabout journey and just went to Chester via Hooton on a fresh ticket, I wasn't as much out of pocket as I might have been. I won't be chasing a refund - it isn't worth it for less than £5,

 

[Djgr]

With the LCRCA mayor featuring the construction of Daresbury Station between Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay in his re-election pledges, it may hint towards a potential Merseyrail extension via Helsby and Hooton. The formerly hourly Liverpool Lime Street services to Bank Quay were dropped during the pandemic, as were the Ellesmere Port to Leeds service.
The service as is remains poor, and there's little to no prospect of Stanlow & Thornton reopening.

Daresbury is in LCR. Helsby to Ellesmere Port isn't

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Daresbury is in LCR. Helsby to Ellesmere Port isn't

It would be a potentially interesting route with wider benefits for the region if you sent it on to Frodsham and Runcorn and put a platform on the Folly Lane side of the station to turn it around in, or on to Warrington Bank Quay - but both are extremely unlikely for the time being.

I do think Merseyrail will eventually get this to Helsby, still at absolute minimum levels of service. You wouldn't need any extra units depending on the time of day.

You could retime 5Y02 to run earlier from Birkenhead to Helsby and pick up it's normal path on the way back on 2Y01. Doubt anyone would use it at 6am though - but it would free up a Northern DMU and crew.

5Y02 should really run in passenger service from Rock Ferry given it has a guard and driver already.

 

[emoaconr]

Daresbury is in LCR. Helsby to Ellesmere Port isn't

But equally a Merseyrail train cannot disapparate at Ellesmere Port (also not LCR) and reappear between Runcorn East and Daresbury only. If we planned transport only around local authority boundaries, then even the Merseyrail system that exists today would never have come into fruition.

 

[Taunton]

Hoping Merseyrail gets hold of the line, and provides a usable service with their class 777s

I went on an evening service back in the 1990s, from Helsby to Hooton, as I think it was before the electrics extended to Ellesmere Port. It was weekday about 1700. A Pacer. I was the only passenger. The service really has long been completely irrelevant to transport needs of the area. If I hadn't chanced upon that train, as I was travelling from Helsby to Birkenhead, I could have just gone via Chester.

I recently drove along the M56 motorway here, passing the oil and petrochemical sites, which i recall from one, in fact two, generations ago, and am really surprised how much of the former, seemingly modern, industry there has been demolished.

 

[30907]

You could retime 5Y02 to run earlier from Birkenhead to Helsby and pick up it's normal path on the way back on 2Y01. Doubt anyone would use it at 6am though - but it would free up a Northern DMU and crew.

5Y02 should really run in passenger service from Rock Ferry given it has a guard and driver already.

5Y06/2C06 would be even better, 0700ish from ELP/0720 back - but there's no spare unit at that end of the system until 1845 at Chester, so maybe 1910 at ELP - no worse than the present service admittedly.
But unless you had other work for a BEMU on the Wirral (Heswall/Neston?) you would find it hard to justify an allocation.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

5Y06/2C06 would be even better, 0700ish from ELP/0720 back - but there's no spare unit at that end of the system until 1845 at Chester, so maybe 1910 at ELP - no worse than the present service admittedly.
But unless you had other work for a BEMU on the Wirral (Heswall/Neston?) you would find it hard to justify an allocation.

Depends on how competence is being managed for drivers (+guards?).

If drivers sign for a 777, do they sign all variants by default? What happens if they're at Birkenhead so don't encounter the battery variant very often/at all...

Presumably they're also trained on how to use battery mode in the event of a power outage etc, to get them into the nearest station.

Anyway, my point is that if Birkenhead traincrew need to maintain specific competency, having 1 battery diagram probably isn't a bad way to keep it up.

 

[frodshamfella]

I went on an evening service back in the 1990s, from Helsby to Hooton, as I think it was before the electrics extended to Ellesmere Port. It was weekday about 1700. A Pacer. I was the only passenger. The service really has long been completely irrelevant to transport needs of the area. If I hadn't chanced upon that train, as I was travelling from Helsby to Birkenhead, I could have just gone via Chester.

I recently drove along the M56 motorway here, passing the oil and petrochemical sites, which i recall from one, in fact two, generations ago, and am really surprised how much of the former, seemingly modern, industry there has been demolished.

Well oil is a dirty word now. That's a long time ago what your talking about. There has been quite a bit of housing built at Ince now, Thornton Science Park part of Chester Uni, Encirc at Elton which now has there own sidings. So there are new things going on in the area. I believe its on Merseyrail to do list.

 

[30907]

Depends on how competence is being managed for drivers (+guards?).

If drivers sign for a 777, do they sign all variants by default? What happens if they're at Birkenhead so don't encounter the battery variant very often/at all...

Presumably they're also trained on how to use battery mode in the event of a power outage etc, to get them into the nearest station.

Anyway, my point is that if Birkenhead traincrew need to maintain specific competency, having 1 battery diagram probably isn't a bad way to keep it up.

Good point, but only if Birkenhead need to sign the battery 777 in the first place.

 

[jamesst]

Good point, but only if Birkenhead need to sign the battery 777 in the first place.

They will do but have yet to be trained on them

 

[Old Yard Dog]

If we planned transport only around local authority boundaries, then even the Merseyrail system that exists today would never have come into fruition.

Isn't that what Headbolt Lane is? What a ridiculous place to terminate trains. Local politics seems to explain why nearly all ME services end at or just over the Merseyside county boundary. Cheshire had to pay for the Chester and Ellesmere Port extensions.

Likewise Adwick and the Robin Hood line which should continue from Worksop (rev) to Sheffield.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that what Headbolt Lane is? What a ridiculous place to terminate trains. Local politics seems to explain why nearly all ME services end at or just over the Merseyside county boundary. Cheshire had to pay for the Chester and Ellesmere Port extensions.

Likewise Adwick and the Robin Hood line which should continue from Worksop (rev) to Sheffield.

Headbolt is no more ridiculous than Kirkby itself - neither station is central to modern Kirkby, the two stations and the actual centre (in so much as there is one) make roughly an equilateral triangle.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

But Wigan Wallgate (and/or Skelmeresdale) would have made far more sense if the 777s could get that far instead of blocking the line at Headbolt Lane

 

[frodshamfella]

But Wigan Wallgate (and/or Skelmeresdale) would have made far more sense if the 777s could get that far instead of blocking the line at Headbolt Lane

Of course. That is where the service should be running to, makes so much more sense.

 

[stantheman]

When was the last oil train from Stanlow and is there any freight on the line now ?

 

[D7666]

Of course. That is where the service should be running to, makes so much more sense.

Considering the present politicians scheme to create a new Manchester Liverpool route in the light that the past through Liverpool (Exchange) Kirkby Wigan Atherton Manchester route was the L&Y Edwardian era route update precisely to provide increased capacity between Manchester and Liverpool, and at the same time relieve Bolton, I'd say terminating at Wallgate is not sense in that respect - reinstating the complete route is. But that is possibly the view from another planet.

None of this has a lot to do with Hoolsby to Helton or wherever it is we are supposed to be talking about.

 

[frodshamfella]

With the LCRCA mayor featuring the construction of Daresbury Station between Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay in his re-election pledges, it may hint towards a potential Merseyrail extension via Helsby and Hooton. The formerly hourly Liverpool Lime Street services to Bank Quay were dropped during the pandemic, as were the Ellesmere Port to Leeds service.
The service as is remains poor, and there's little to no prospect of Stanlow & Thornton reopening.

How I understand the plan, the proposal from the city mayor, is an extended service from Ellesmere Port to Helsby onwards to Runcorn East, new station at Daresbury terminating at Warrington BQ. I dont know where abouts the Daresbury Station would be positioned , there was a Daresbury and a Moore Station yeaes back. Its probably a good idea there is a lot more people living around there now, new housing too . This would be much better than the Ellesmere Port stump, offering better connectivity.