EMR Bedford to Leeds?

[thatapanydude]

Considering the new upcoming EMR timetable will see the loss of direct travel from MML station south of Kettering to the North, would it be worthwhile to introduce a 1tph service from Bedford to Leeds via Nottingham. This would bring back direct connectivity for Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester for changes to Derby while also giving MML stations better travel to Leeds, Sheffield, Barnsley and possibility York.

Calling pattern:
Bedford
Wellingborough
Kettering
Market Harborough
Leicester
Loughborough
Beeston
Nottingham (reversal)
Ilkeston
Chesterfield Station
Sheffield
Barnsley
Wakefield Westgate
Leeds and maybe to York too?!

I would operate this service with Class 222 5-car stock - for argument sakes as this would be a inter-city/regional express train.

 

[RobShipway]

Considering the new upcoming EMR timetable will see the loss of direct travel from MML station south of Kettering to the North, would it be worthwhile to introduce a 1tph service from Bedford to Leeds via Nottingham. This would bring back direct connectivity for Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester for changes to Derby while also giving MML stations better travel to Leeds, Sheffield, Barnsley and possibility York.

Calling pattern:
Bedford
Wellingborough
Kettering
Market Harborough
Leicester
Loughborough
Beeston
Nottingham (reversal)
Ilkeston
Chesterfield Station
Sheffield
Barnsley
Wakefield Westgate
Leeds and maybe to York too?!

I would operate this service with Class 222 5-car stock - for argument sakes as this would be a inter-city/regional express train.

I would imagine that as train services mount up as restrictions due to Covid-19 get less, that there would be very little class 222 to do this service. Plus, I do believe that you would get enough patronage for the service to fill a 5 car class 22 train. You have also, got the fact that at some point in the future that the class 222 will be handed back to Eversholt Rail group, once the class 810 trains start arriving.

You are more likely to see the route being served with three or two car class 170 turbostar unit, unless EMR keeps hold of the class 180's that they are leasing which I doubt will happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

Leeds is not a part of EMRs franchise specification anymore. No one seems to know why the single down service still exists.

 

[JonathanH]

This would bring back direct connectivity for Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester for changes to Derby while also giving MML stations better travel to Leeds, Sheffield, Barnsley and possibility York.

If that direct connectivity was important a way would be found to include it in a London train. I think there are discussions in another thread that there is insufficient demand for the kind of service you are suggesting.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/when-mml-electrification-reaches-leicester-what-service-patterns-could-operate.216138/#post-5079941

 

[PTR 444]

Isn’t there already a proposal to run a Bedford - Leeds service via HS2 north of Toton once phase 2b is fully operational?

 

[JonathanH]

Isn’t there already a proposal to run a Bedford - Leeds service via HS2 north of Toton once phase 2b is fully operational?

Is that a proposal from one of the think tanks rather than an official HS2 proposal?

 

[adrock1976]

Being as the St Pancras - Nottingham and Sheffield trains are built around the Thameslink timetable and cannot be radically altered, I would suggest something along the likes of post-HS2 as being:

St Pancras - Nottingham every 30 minutes, calling Bedford Midland, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, East Mids Parkway, Beeston, Nottingham

St Pancras - Sheffield Midland every 30 minutes, calling Leicester, Loughborough, East Mids Parkway, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield. One train every 60 minutes extends to Leeds City calling Rotherham Masborough (or a parkway nearby), Wakefield (either Kirkgate or Westgate), Leeds City, with the opposite half hour train extending every 60 minutes to York calling Rotherham Masborough (or a parkway nearby), Pontefract Baghill, York.

No trains would terminate at Sheffield, as both (or at least one per hour) has to shunt empty to the vicinity of a very busy Nunnery Main Line Junction and come back to switch platforms. The Sheffield trains could meet the Nottinghams at Leicester and exchange passengers as there are island platforms in both directions (Cross Country intend to have the present Birmingham - Leicester continue to at least Peterborough, therefore both faces of the northbound island would be clear).

Alternatively, a Nottingham - York Regional Express could be introduced, calling at Beeston, Toton Interchange (for the trams and HS2), maybe Ilkeston Parkway or Alfreton, Chesterfield, Killamarsh & Halfway for Sheffield Supertram (ex Midland Killamarsh West reopened), Rotherham Masborough (or a parkway nearby), Pontefract Baghill, York.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did the original question actually mention the post-HS2 scenario at all? Surely in the absence of anything to the contrary he’s asking about now?

 

[adrock1976]

Did the original question actually mention the post-HS2 scenario at all? Surely in the absence of anything to the contrary he’s asking about now?

I was mentioning that post HS2 would be ideal to change things north of Bedford, as there would be alterations to the traditional InterCity services then, and have put forward a suggestion.

Where is your suggestion, as I cannot find it in your previous post?

 

[swt_passenger]

I was mentioning that post HS2 would be ideal to change things north of Bedford, as there would be alterations to the traditional InterCity services then, and have put forward a suggestion.

Where is your suggestion, as I cannot find it in your previous post?

My reply wasn’t intended for you especially, which is why I didn’t quote your post. There are quite a few existing discussions of post HS2 options.

 

[adrock1976]

My reply wasn’t intended for you especially, which is why I didn’t quote your post. There are quite a few existing discussions of post HS2 options.

My apologies.

 

[swt_passenger]

My apologies.

No problem.

 

[thatapanydude]

Did the original question actually mention the post-HS2 scenario at all? Surely in the absence of anything to the contrary he’s asking about now?

Yes my thinking was till HS2 is in place connectivity from MML south of Leicester could do with some improvements with a new service considering the spare capacity that the quad tracking from Bedford to Kettering brings.

If that direct connectivity was important a way would be found to include it in a London train. I think there are discussions in another thread that there is insufficient demand for the kind of service you are suggesting.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/when-mml-electrification-reaches-leicester-what-service-patterns-could-operate.216138/#post-5079941

Fair enough, though the connectivity argument would still be applicable from Nottingham and Leicester to Sheffield and Leeds respectively, an improved regional express type service (even class 170s) would be an upgrade on Northern service while also providing links to southern MML stations.

 

[A0]

Being as the St Pancras - Nottingham and Sheffield trains are built around the Thameslink timetable and cannot be radically altered, I would suggest something along the likes of post-HS2 as being:

St Pancras - Nottingham every 30 minutes, calling Bedford Midland, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, East Mids Parkway, Beeston, Nottingham

St Pancras - Sheffield Midland every 30 minutes, calling Leicester, Loughborough, East Mids Parkway, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield. One train every 60 minutes extends to Leeds City calling Rotherham Masborough (or a parkway nearby), Wakefield (either Kirkgate or Westgate), Leeds City, with the opposite half hour train extending every 60 minutes to York calling Rotherham Masborough (or a parkway nearby), Pontefract Baghill, York.

But north of Bedford you'll still have 2tph Corby to contend with even post HS2 - so what you've outlined above is basically what we have today (when the new timetable kicks in), except you're proposing to stop the Nottingham services additionally at Bedford and Wellingborough which will slow them down and cause them to trip over Thameslink services south of Bedford.

Your suggestion has been rejected as unworkable by EMR on the new timetable when factoring in Corby and Thameslink - that's still going to be the case, so what do you think is changing that will allow this to magically work ?

 

[adrock1976]

But north of Bedford you'll still have 2tph Corby to contend with even post HS2 - so what you've outlined above is basically what we have today (when the new timetable kicks in), except you're proposing to stop the Nottingham services additionally at Bedford and Wellingborough which will slow them down and cause them to trip over Thameslink services south of Bedford.

Your suggestion has been rejected as unworkable by EMR on the new timetable when factoring in Corby and Thameslink - that's still going to be the case, so what do you think is changing that will allow this to magically work ?

How will the Nottingham trip over Thameslink south of Bedford if the exact same timings are kept St Pancras - Bedford in both directions?

When I did geography at school many years ago, Wellingborough (Northamptonshire), and Leicestershire are north of Bedford (Bedfordshire), unless the earth has moved in that time.

Obviously, for the London bound direction, the trains would depart their northern origins slightly earlier so as to keep the exact same paths south of Bedford.

 

[A0]

How will the Nottingham trip over Thameslink south of Bedford if the exact same timings are kept St Pancras - Bedford in both directions?

When I did geography at school many years ago, Wellingborough (Northamptonshire), and Leicestershire are north of Bedford (Bedfordshire), unless the earth has moved in that time.

Obviously, for the London bound direction, the trains would depart their northern origins slightly earlier so as to keep the exact same paths south of Bedford.

Because by adding two stops (Bedford and Wellingborough) in you'll have delayed it circa 5 - 7 minutes ?

Example - under the new timetable arriving at St Pancras you have xx.51 (stopper from Corby), xx.54 (ex Nottingham, last stop Kettering), xx.08 (ex Sheffield stopping last stop Leicester) - your change would slow down that Nottingham one which could potentially have a knock on to the Sheffield coming in behind it.

 

[LLivery]

I'd say open stations at Kibworth, Desborough, Burton Latimer, Rushden Pkwy (or promote Wellingborough as a railhead) and Clapham-Oakley. Then extend the hourly Ivanhoe train to Bedford. Also consider having one of the fasts call at Wellingborough rather than Kettering.

 

[A0]

I'd say open stations at Kibworth, Desborough, Burton Latimer, Rushden Pkwy (or promote Wellingborough as a railhead) and Clapham-Oakley. Then extend the hourly Ivanhoe train to Bedford. Also consider having one of the fasts call at Wellingborough rather than Kettering. Then everyone's happy.

The problem with both Kibworth and Desborough is they are on a two track railway, which is already limited on the number of paths.

Rushden Parkway I tend to agree with - I think with the development on the east side of Wellingborough, use there will doubtless increase - a station between Rushden & Irchester would make some sense.

 

[LLivery]

The problem with both Kibworth and Desborough is they are on a two track railway, which is already limited on the number of paths.

Rushden Parkway I tend to agree with - I think with the development on the east side of Wellingborough, use there will doubtless increase - a station between Rushden & Irchester would make some sense.

I understand the capacity is an issue, but surely it can't be impossible to add 1tph. Maybe add another platform to Market Harborough as a loop?

Doing the maths, with all the new homes planned in the Wellingborough/Rushden area we're looking at around 22,800 extra residents by 2030ish. With the current population of the catchment area, plus the homes planned, Wellingborough will be the station for ~135,000. That's the 7th largest urban area on the Midland. An additional station, or focus as a railhead would be great.

 

[A0]

I understand the capacity is an issue, but surely it can't be impossible to add 1tph. Maybe add another platform to Market Harborough as a loop?

Doing the maths, with all the new homes planned in the Wellingborough/Rushden area we're looking at around 22,800 extra residents by 2030ish. With the current population of the catchment area, plus the homes planned, Wellingborough will be the station for ~135,000. That's the 7th largest urban area on the Midland. An additional station, or focus as a railhead would be great.

That would be the same Market Harborough that has just been subject to a massive re-building at huge cost to improve the linespeed putting in completely new platforms, or is there a different Market Harborough I'm not aware of ?

The bigger issue remains there are 4 high speed TPH between Leicester and Kettering then there is freight to consider. Anything other 'local' type service would almost certainly be a 90 / 100 mph DMU, class 156, 170 or similar and they are slow to accelerate, which makes them more difficult to path.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand the capacity is an issue, but surely it can't be impossible to add 1tph.

I’m afraid it is.

 

[Eskimo]

Interesting idea. If the MML was eventually fully wired, it would be simpler to have an 8 (or 12) car class 360 split at Kettering, and continue on the Bedford to Leeds meander. It would certainly bypass the need for any extra pathing south of Kettering.

 

[thatapanydude]

It would certainly bypass the need for any extra pathing south of Kettering.

Even with or without any split at Corby - this is a crucial point in that it does not need any new paths (it could take over the existing Northern Notts to Leeds path) and in fact capacity is probably already available for a 1tph service at the moment.

Any service could easily be done by the class 180s preferably or class 170 too.

While connectivity and demand might not be worthwhile to stop a London train, a standalone service to pick up the localised demands e.g. Bedford/Wellingborough to Leicester or Leicester to Leeds etc across the MML ought to be revenue generating.

 

[JonathanH]

While connectivity and demand might not be worthwhile to stop a London train, a standalone service to pick up the localised demands e.g. Bedford/Wellingborough to Leicester or Leicester to Leeds etc across the MML ought to be revenue generating.

Bedford / Wellingborough to Leicester isn't really localised demand at 50 miles - Bedford to Wellingborough / Kettering is localised demand and about to have substantial capacity introduced. Your stopping service via Nottingham and Barnsley isn't going to be very attractive for Leicester to Leeds travellers against going via Sheffield and changing.

My guess is that EMR would find that the revenue it generates isn't more than the cost it generates.

It shouldn't be ignored that EMR do have data to understand the demand for through trains from Bedford to Leicester as there is such an hourly service at the moment. Indeeed, it is noticeable that since the transformational changes in the late 1990s which introduced local connectivity at the stations between Bedford and Leicester, the timetable changes have placed increasing focus on long distance travel to London. If that demand for connectivity between Bedford and Leicester was significant and not just 'nice to have' the upcoming timetable changes might be different.

 

[A0]

Interesting idea. If the MML was eventually fully wired, it would be simpler to have an 8 (or 12) car class 360 split at Kettering, and continue on the Bedford to Leeds meander. It would certainly bypass the need for any extra pathing south of Kettering.

As LM found out having split / joins isn't straightforward - you usually end up with a unit arriving and waiting circa 10 mins for the other unit to arrive so it can join and continue. Problem it causes is if one's delayed, what then ? And why should passengers from Corby and the intermediate stations find their service reliability and journey times are put at risk to allow this.

The demand for north-ward travel from Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering is remarkably limited.

I have stood on Wellingborough station between 7.30 and 8.30 am - and at best the number waiting for a northbound service numbered 50 - of which 40 were school children heading to Kettering (there's a very popular secondary school in Kettering).

I've also been on a peak time departure from St Pancras in the evenings - a full & standing Meridian bound for Nottingham. Full and standing until Luton, some standing to Bedford, less than 50% full on leaving Bedford.

 

[LLivery]

That would be the same Market Harborough that has just been subject to a massive re-building at huge cost to improve the linespeed putting in completely new platforms, or is there a different Market Harborough I'm not aware of ?

The bigger issue remains there are 4 high speed TPH between Leicester and Kettering then there is freight to consider. Anything other 'local' type service would almost certainly be a 90 / 100 mph DMU, class 156, 170 or similar and they are slow to accelerate, which makes them more difficult to path.

Fair point. Yeah, I can see how it'd be difficult. It's just a shame places deserving of stations in Northamptonshire & Leicestershire struggle to get them, while we're building stations in very small places like Bow Street.

I’m afraid it is.

Well, that idea is scrapped then!

 

[A0]

Fair point. Yeah, I can see how it'd be difficult. It's just a shame places deserving of stations in Northamptonshire & Leicestershire struggle to get them, while we're building stations in very small places like Bow Street.

Comparing apples with bananas there - Bow Street is a station on a much quieter line and can be served with minimal disruption to services on the line.

FWIW, I think only one of the places you suggested actually justifies a station - that's Rushden Parkway - Rushden's a town of 30,000 and growing and with Wellingborough also growing the demand and ease of getting to Wellingborough station won't get better.

Desborough's 10k and both Kettering and Market Harborough are easily accessed.

Kibworth is about 5k - so no chance. Burton Latimer's 7k, again, no chance and the railway is some distance outside Burton Latimer, so the station wouldn't exactly be serving the village.

Clapham / Oakley - I think you'd need *alot* of building for a station there to make sense. Also need to wait and see where EWR ends up going as that may resolve that one.

 

[Eskimo]

As LM found out having split / joins isn't straightforward - you usually end up with a unit arriving and waiting circa 10 mins for the other unit to arrive so it can join and continue.

If Kettering is still served by the Fast-ish services, it could be avoided by tactically pathing the slow service 10 minutes before the fast arrives? - meaning London bound passengers could change service.

How often was a splitting / partition service delayed for LM? Is it substantial enough to prove more unreliable than not?

Northampton wouldn’t have had a ‘Fast’ alternative comparable to a Meridian / Aurora at Kettering?

 

[A0]

If Kettering is still served by the Fast-ish services, it could be avoided by tactically pathing the slow service 10 minutes before the fast arrives? - meaning London bound passengers could change service.

How often was a splitting / partition service delayed for LM? Is it substantial enough to prove more unreliable than not?

Northampton wouldn’t have had a ‘Fast’ alternative comparable to a Meridian / Aurora at Kettering?

The problem with the proposal - along with most others of this vein - are it keeps trying to solve a problem which doesn't need solving i.e having fast, long distance services stopping at Bedford.

@JonathanH summed it up quite nicely: "It shouldn't be ignored that EMR do have data to understand the demand for through trains from Bedford to Leicester as there is such an hourly service at the moment. Indeeed, it is noticeable that since the transformational changes in the late 1990s which introduced local connectivity at the stations between Bedford and Leicester, the timetable changes have placed increasing focus on long distance travel to London. If that demand for connectivity between Bedford and Leicester was significant and not just 'nice to have' the upcoming timetable changes might be different."

Most of the time the fast trains serving Bedford were jumped on by commuters heading to London making them over-crowded. Ditto the return in the evening, so travellers to Wellingborough, Kettering and beyond found themselves standing to Bedford and then with space on the train beyond there.

The new timetable sorts this out - the Corby services, which will be quick for Bedford - London journeys will be 8 or 12 car, so no shortage of seats for everyone.

Anyone wanting to travel from Bedford to Leicester will still have a competitive journey time of sub 1 hour (50 mile journey) even allowing for the change. And you'd struggle to drive Bedford - Leicester in an hour. London is slightly quicker (also a 50 mile journey) at 40-45 mins, but not substantially so.

 

[LLivery]

Comparing apples with bananas there - Bow Street is a station on a much quieter line and can be served with minimal disruption to services on the line.

FWIW, I think only one of the places you suggested actually justifies a station - that's Rushden Parkway - Rushden's a town of 30,000 and growing and with Wellingborough also growing the demand and ease of getting to Wellingborough station won't get better.

Desborough's 10k and both Kettering and Market Harborough are easily accessed.

Kibworth is about 5k - so no chance. Burton Latimer's 7k, again, no chance and the railway is some distance outside Burton Latimer, so the station wouldn't exactly be serving the village.

Clapham / Oakley - I think you'd need *alot* of building for a station there to make sense. Also need to wait and see where EWR ends up going as that may resolve that one.

I was thinking more about the population deserving, rather than rail impact. Having said that, I honestly thought Kibworth was bigger than that.

For the ease to Wellingborough, I hope to see a bus network integrated with Rushden/Higham/Irthlingborough in the future. It's a shame to see what's become of the buses on Wellingborough from the highs of 10+ years ago. A route serving both town centres, Wellingborough station and the Lakes via Stanton Cross would be interesting, but I won't hold my breath. However, now it's one council in the area, it may be a great help. If Rushden Parkway was built, I'd be pleasantly surprised.