End of the Birmingham 11 Outer Circle.

[WM Bus]

Apparently about to be split up from July 4th.

The route gets split into two from 4th July

Unreliable routes in Birmingham (wmbusphotos.com)

 

[Statto]

I never believe in rumours until it's officially confirmed, especially as only as it's come from one source at the time, but a couple of other posters on that site have mentioned it seems to be true.

A variation has been put up on VOSA but doesn't reveal anything other than a variation, which could just be a timetable change

Vehicle Operator Licensing - GOV.UK

www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk

 

[WM Bus]

Service split into 2 from July 4th. So end of the Outer Circle route, as it was. And does it lose its title as longest urban bus route in Europe now as well?
Microsoft Word - B11A_04Jul21.doc (nxbus.co.uk)

Also having 2 separate routes with the same number is strange. Would make sense to change one of them I think, to avoid confusion.

 

[Aictos]

Service split into 2 from July 4th. So end of the Outer Circle route, as it was. And does it lose its title as longest urban bus route in Europe now as well?
Microsoft Word - B11A_04Jul21.doc (nxbus.co.uk)

Also having 2 separate routes with the same number is strange. Would make sense to change one of them I think, to avoid confusion.

Not really, all they have to do is split it at Birmingham City Hospital with 11A between Birmingham City Hospital to Acocks Green via Selly Oak and 11C between Birmingham City Hospital and Acocks Green via Perry Bar.

No need to just change route numbers at all.

 

[asb]

I think that would be even more confusing as A has always gone one way round the loop and C the other. The routes do overlap, which is something. Are they still running through at AG Garage?

 

[WM Bus]

I think that would be even more confusing as A has always gone one way round the loop and C the other. The routes do overlap, which is something. Are they still running through at AG Garage?

Yes AG Garage.
I would said they should be the 10 and 11 personally. Only one number away from 11 so would fit in well on the overlapping section and according to this link it was originally the 10 and 11 in the 1920's anyway.
West Midlands bus route 11 - Wikipedia

route 10 ran from King's Heath to the King's Head (Hagley Road) via Cotteridge,

 

[HST274]

Apparently about to be split up from July 4th.

Unreliable routes in Birmingham (wmbusphotos.com)

Certainly agree its super unreliable. Could be 3 minutes or 45 minutes between each one depending on its mood

 

[Typhoon]

I think that would be even more confusing as A has always gone one way round the loop and C the other. The routes do overlap, which is something. Are they still running through at AG Garage?

I think that when I first moved to Birmingham it was simply the '11' (likewise the Inner Circle was the '8' and the long disappeared City Circle was the '19' - I think).

Suffixes were used to denote the final destination for short workings (although I can't remember whether this applied to the 11 - there would have been an awful lot of them, a lot of garages operated the '11' then). I think the 'A' and 'C' were first used when all the suffixes were replaced by 'E' ('for exception') so that is by no means set in stone.

 

[duncanp]

The change has now been officially confirmed on the National Express West Midlands website.

They do say that the change will be temporary, until the completion of roadworks in Perry Barr, but that they do not have an end date "at this time".

However I expect that the roadworks will be completed before the Commonwealth Games, so it could be up to a year.

 

[GusB]

Could we please remember to post a reference to, and a relevant quote from your sources.

 

[Typhoon]

Timetable for the revised 11 is at https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/service-updates/11a11c-outer-circle-route-changes

Details about transfers/ timespan/ frequency are in the FAQs on that page

I bought a single ticket but now I have to change my bus to get to my destination. Will I have to pay again?
No. If you have to change buses in either Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington, you just need to show your current ticket to the driver to continue on your journey at no extra cost. It is important that you keep hold of your ticket once purchased. If you have paid using contactless, you will be able to tap your card again on the next bus but no extra charge will be made.

[Why are you changing the route?
We have changed the route to improve service reliability and punctuality following continuous disruptions caused by the roadworks in Perry Barr.

How frequently will the buses be running?
We will be running a service up to every 8 minutes Monday to Saturday daytimes and up to every 15 minutes on evenings and Sundays. Services will be up to every 4 minutes Monday to Saturday daytimes, between Perry Barr and Erdington.

How will I know which bus I need to get?
We will be adding the destination to the front of the buses so you will be able to see where your bus will be headed.

How long will this change last for?
This is a temporary change due to the roadworks in Perry Barr. We do not have an end date at this time.

 

[blue87]

A real pity, but with the roadworks at Perry Barr and often several other points along the route reliability is horrendous at the moment, quite fancy one last full circuit on it before it changes.

 

[johncrossley]

"No. If you have to change buses in either Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington, you just need to show your current ticket to the driver to continue on your journey at no extra cost. It is important that you keep hold of your ticket once purchased. If you have paid using contactless, you will be able to tap your card again on the next bus but no extra charge will be made."

Just because there is history of a through route, I don't see what is so special about changing buses here that means they pay less than changing buses on other routes. Just allow unlimited transfers within an hour like in London. Increase the fare if necessary to make it cost neutral.

 

[MCR247]

"No. If you have to change buses in either Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington, you just need to show your current ticket to the driver to continue on your journey at no extra cost. It is important that you keep hold of your ticket once purchased. If you have paid using contactless, you will be able to tap your card again on the next bus but no extra charge will be made."

Just because there is history of a through route, I don't see what is so special about changing buses here that means they pay less than changing buses on other routes. Just allow unlimited transfers within an hour like in London. Increase the fare if necessary to make it cost neutral.

I think it’s the fact that it’s a temporary change that they aren’t expecting to be permanent.

 

[johncrossley]

I think it’s the fact that it’s a temporary change that they aren’t expecting to be permanent.

Of course, but it does show the randomness of charging a lower fare on a through service compared to one involving a change, even if the distance is shorter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but it does show the randomness of charging a lower fare on a through service compared to one involving a change, even if the distance is shorter.

It's funny how UK bus operators don't get that and stick to the outdated dogma of "one vehicle journey = one ticket". I know the old saying was that people would pass on tickets, but now most are paying by contactless it could easily enough be done that way.

 

[carlberry]

Just because there is history of a through route, I don't see what is so special about changing buses here that means they pay less than changing buses on other routes. Just allow unlimited transfers within an hour like in London. Increase the fare if necessary to make it cost neutral.

Lots of journeys on the outer circle can be more than an hour so it wouldn't work in this instance.

It's funny how UK bus operators don't get that and stick to the outdated dogma of "one vehicle journey = one ticket". I know the old saying was that people would pass on tickets, but now most are paying by contactless it could easily enough be done that way.

Lots of operators either have day tickets instead of returns (i.e. close to the price of two singles) and daily capping on contactless is now arriving in some places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of journeys on the outer circle can be more than an hour so it wouldn't work in this instance.


Lots of operators either have day tickets instead of returns (i.e. close to the price of two singles) and daily capping on contactless is now arriving in some places.

If you had touch in and out, then it would just need to be an hour (or maybe half an hour) between the touch out and the touch in.

 

[johncrossley]

Lots of journeys on the outer circle can be more than an hour so it wouldn't work in this instance.

But I presume there are many that don't. Someone travelling for 20 minutes on the Outer Circle and 30 minutes on another route have to pay twice as much as someone travelling on a direct bus. Why is that good?

Lots of operators either have day tickets instead of returns (i.e. close to the price of two singles) and daily capping on contactless is now arriving in some places.

This still makes it expensive to make a single journey involving changes.

 

[Typhoon]

Lots of journeys on the outer circle can be more than an hour so it wouldn't work in this instance.


Lots of operators either have day tickets instead of returns (i.e. close to the price of two singles) and daily capping on contactless is now arriving in some places.

NEx West Mids certainly do: Adult Single - £2.40, Adult Day £4.60 (before 09:30), £4 after.

So the number of people it is going to affect is not that many (those taking just a single journey on the 11 involving a change of buses). They probably reckoned it wasn't worth the adverse publicity for marginal increase in income. May have changed but a great many passengers used to have a Travelcard (even cheaper).

From https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/tickets-prices/single-trips-day-tickets

 

[johncrossley]

NEx West Mids certainly do: Adult Single - £2.40, Adult Day £4.60 (before 09:30), £4 after.

So the number of people it is going to affect is not that many (those taking just a single journey on the 11 involving a change of buses). They probably reckoned it wasn't worth the adverse publicity for marginal increase in income. May have changed but a great many passengers used to have a Travelcard (even cheaper).

From https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/tickets-prices/single-trips-day-tickets

So a single journey involving the 11 and another route costs either 67% or 92% more compared to changing between two buses on the 11.

 

[carlberry]

So a single journey involving the 11 and another route costs either 67% or 92% more compared to changing between two buses on the 11.

However the point being discussed is that it's a single bus service that is having to be split because of road works, therefore a solution has been offered to ensure the passengers don't suffer as a result (in the same way as diversions on other routes or vehicle breakdowns). People who currently use the 11 and another route don't currently have the facility to change so haven't lost anything. If enough of them complained then the operator may offer something, however I suspect the numbers of people changing routes who are only doing it one way are not going to be be a large target market.

 

[Typhoon]

So a single journey involving the 11 and another route costs either 67% or 92% more compared to changing between two buses on the 11.

The alternative is to charge passengers who have been used to a single bus journey but now have the inconvenience of waiting and changing buses because of road works extra for the 'privilege' of doing so. Those that have used the 11 and then switched to another service are used to paying more (or, more likely, buying a period ticket - which is what I did when I lived in Birmingham).

 

[johncrossley]

However the point being discussed is that it's a single bus service that is having to be split because of road works, therefore a solution has been offered to ensure the passengers don't suffer as a result (in the same way as diversions on other routes or vehicle breakdowns). People who currently use the 11 and another route don't currently have the facility to change so haven't lost anything. If enough of them complained then the operator may offer something, however I suspect the numbers of people changing routes who are only doing it one way are not going to be be a large target market.

The point is that people changing between *other routes* are paying an artificially high fare. There's nothing special about travelling on a direct bus that means it ought to be cheaper than changing between buses. Arguably changing should cost less as it is less convenient!

The alternative is to charge passengers who have been used to a single bus journey but now have the inconvenience of waiting and changing buses because of road works extra for the 'privilege' of doing so. Those that have used the 11 and then switched to another service are used to paying more (or, more likely, buying a period ticket - which is what I did when I lived in Birmingham).

The alternative is to offer unlimited changes within a set time period. That means that people who have to change don't get unfairly penalised for it.

 

[Aictos]

I think that would be even more confusing as A has always gone one way round the loop and C the other. The routes do overlap, which is something. Are they still running through at AG Garage?

Not as confusing as Stagecoach in Peterborough which has two bus route 904s, one is Peterborough Queensgate Shopping Centre to Huntingdon Bus Station and the other is Huntingdon Bus Station to St Ives Morrison store.

Least my way you're clearly delineating the difference that the route one way is 11A while the route the other side of the split is 11C.

Can't see what's confusing about it and of it proves to make the service more reliable then I can see them making it permanent be after all the X1 from Peterborough to Great Yarmouth via Wisbech, Kings Lynn and Norwich used to be a continuous route until the A47 roadworks which temporarily split the route into Peterborough to Norwich and Norwich to Great Yarmouth before making the change permanent so there is past history there.

 

[carlberry]

The point is that people changing between *other routes* are paying an artificially high fare. There's nothing special about travelling on a direct bus that means it ought to be cheaper than changing between buses. Arguably changing should cost less as it is less convenient!



The alternative is to offer unlimited changes within a set time period. That means that people who have to change don't get unfairly penalised for it.

Again, this isn't really related to this specific service change; it's the operators general fare policy. And it only penalises people who are doing a change but only going one way, therefore a small percentage of passengers. If they return than a day ticket is cheaper if they're on a direct service or if they change 4 times.

 

[Typhoon]

The alternative is to offer unlimited changes within a set time period. That means that people who have to change don't get unfairly penalised for it.

That is fine provided buses run frequently enough and on time; I buy a one hour ticket (cost - say 1.5 times single?) and miss the connection because of roadworks at Perry Barr, I will have to buy a new ticket to complete my journey. You can't please everybody. By having a really cheap day ticket NEx West Midlands has cut out the need for drivers to have to check tickets in detail - day ticket, today's date, off we go so speeding the bus up, so need fewer buses.

And it only penalises people who are doing a change but only going one way, therefore a small percentage of passengers.

Exactly, the vast majority for passengers go back and loading was certainly a lot quicker in the afternoon as a result.

 

[johncrossley]

I buy a one hour ticket (cost - say 1.5 times single?)

Why should a one hour ticket cost more than a single? (By single I assume you mean direct bus). Why give a special discount to people who travel on a direct bus? People whose journey involves a change are in greater need of an incentive, given the greater inconvenience.

We used to have the same problem in London. Instead of waiting for the direct bus we can now get on the first bus that comes in the general direction and change where necessary, without worrying about the fare.

 

[Typhoon]

Why should a one hour ticket cost more than a single? (By single I assume you mean direct bus). Why give a special discount to people who travel on a direct bus? People whose journey involves a change are in greater need of an incentive, given the greater inconvenience.

We used to have the same problem in London. Instead of waiting for the direct bus we can now get on the first bus that comes in the general direction and change where necessary, without worrying about the fare.

By single I mean a fare for single journey as quoted in #20. If the fare is kept the same, the bus company loses revenue (as people will only need one single ticket instead of two, one for each leg of the journey. or a day ticket), otherwise they increase the price of a single ticket to compensate, in which case you will have passengers complaining that they are only travelling four stops so why has their fare gone up for a service they don't use. You can't please everybody.

A lot of Birmingham routes are radial so, if you are in town, there is no point going half way home as the bus you will have to wait for will have come from town in any case. There are some routes which aren't but they tend to be less frequent so the next one may not arrive within the hour. Also, there are a number of different operators - one main one and several others, including those that compete and those that travel in from adjacent counties - would the scheme involve them? All of this makes it more difficult to administer. I seem to remember there might have been such a scheme at one time (probably pre-NEx) but, if so, there must be a reason why it isn't about now, and I suggest that is simplicity.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the 11 Outer Circle, I recall that when I used to reside in the West Midlands, anti-clockwise journeys displayed 11A and were operated by Acocks Green garage, with the 11C clockwise journeys operated by Perry Barr garage.

Is this still the case today?