Enterprise - Why Not Have it run to Gt. Victoria Street ?

[Mutant Lemming]

With Central not being particularly central are there any logistical reasons why the Enterprise service can't run to Gt.Victoria Street ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It's been proposed for years as far as I know, however I think one of the main things holding it back is the lack of a fifth platform - Enterprise can have some lengthy turn around times (usually anything between 40-60 mins), and over the four platforms it already handles:
2tph to Portadown
2tph to Bangor
2tph to Whitehead (one extended to Larne)
1tph to Coleraine (to either Londonderry or Portrush)

With the Enterprise's already variable reliability, I think it is perhaps just too much of a strain on GVS's resources to basically reduce it down to three platforms for most of the day for the other services.

Edit - not related to GVS, but does anyone know when the Carrick terminator was extended to Whitehead? When I was in NI last summer I'm sure it didn't run beyond Carrick...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A bit of research leads me to these numbers for how long each line's services dwell in GVS an hour (off-peak M-F). I'm working on the basis that, as far as I know, there are no interchanging diagrams over that time period (i.e. Larne units stick to that line all day):

Coleraine line - 20 mins one an hour
Larne line - 15 mins twice an hour
Bangor-Portadown line - 3 mins four times an hour

Once more on Larne line trains, I'm certain they used to terminate at Central and not GVS too

 

[edwin_m]

Larne line has been extended to GVS in the last few months.

There is a "Belfast Transport Hub" project intending to enhance GVS and would probably involve adding at least one extra platform so Enterprise can use it. I'm not sure where this is with funding and legal powers though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For anyone interested, the current Enterprise times at Belfast Central on a Monday-Friday. Only York Road depot could hold the Enterprise if need be AFAIK, which of course is conveniently located just on the other side of the Lagan from Central, but a 10 minute or so trip from GVS (among 5 trains a hour!).

Dep.	Arr.	Wait
0650
0800
1035	0945	50
1235	1147	48
1405	1315	50
1605	1535	30
1805	1729	36
2005	1905	60
	2115
	2225

 

[citybus]

Only York Road depot could hold the Enterprise if need be AFAIK, which of course is conveniently located just on the other side of the Lagan from Central, but a 10 minute or so trip from GVS (among 5 trains a hour!).
Are you sure about that, how does two Carrick & one Coleraine train make for 5tph?

Someone on the skyscrapercity forum once came up with the idea for a Thameslink/ crossrail type project for Belfast instead of the M3 bridge one we got in the 90's. Instead of going over the river twice, GVS could link up with Yorkgate directly, presumably by underground tunnelling in or around the westlink. Now while I'm sure there would be a million and one engineering challenges behind a project of this size (not least the muddy ground conditions and a government & civil service bereft of vision when it comes to anything that provides an alternative to car dependent out of town), I can't help but think there's some small city in the world that has pulled it's finger out and is doing exactly this.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Are you sure about that, how does two Carrick & one Coleraine train make for 5tph?

I meant between GVS and Central: 2 Larne, 1 Coleraine and 2 Bangor. Obviously that's down to just 3 over the Lagan single track section, between the junction to Bangor and Yorkgate station.

 

[edwin_m]

Instead of going over the river twice, GVS could link up with Yorkgate directly, presumably by underground tunnelling in or around the westlink. I can't help but think there's some small city in the world that has pulled it's finger out and is doing exactly this.

Auckland replaced an edge-of-centre through station like Belfast "Central" with an underground central terminus accessed from a triangle. There were ideas to tunnel further but (so far at least) that hasn't happened.

 

[185]

It's been proposed for years as far as I know, however I think one of the main things holding it back is the lack of a fifth platform

Quite annoying as there is so much wasted land either side of the station for up to perhaps 4 platforms on the south side and 10 long platforms on the north side.

A stumbling block for Great Vic Street is the poor quality cramped station interior, however that spare land could be used to juggle a reasonably sized concourse for a country's major station.

 

[Con]

GVS would be a far more "central" location than Central and would shave approximately ten minutes off the journey between Dublin and Belfast. It would need to be remodelled though and the capital cost would have to come from somewhere. Moving to GVS wouldn't compromise access off the Dublin train to Larne, Bangor and Londonderry trains either - seeing as I'm one of the few that do Dublin - Derry by rail a couple of times a year I have an interest in an easy turnaround.

 

[dk1]

Remember the first time i went to Ireland in the late 90s being amazed that Dublin to Belfast wasnt hourly. Over the years i have also found the service very hit & miss. The troubles, which can still affect The Enterprise, really do not help. It can really seem the poor relation now compared to the much improved (not neccessarily for enthusiasts i admit) services operating across the rest of Iarnród Éireann .

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed - if I recall correctly it's not unusual for the DART (Dublin local trains) to get priority (or paths) above the Enterprise for the final few miles into Dublin - I've done it twice and both times you do well through Dundalk and Drogheda but as soon as you hit Malahide or Howth Jn you crawl. It must have taken us 20 mins to do about 5 miles on my first trip down there. Northbound isn't too speedy either, but it's certainly better than heading south. Belfast isn't too bad as you only contend with 2 trains per hour (albeit all stations stoppers) aside from the last couple of miles where you need to fit in among 5 (with City Hospital and Botanic calls).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The vast improvement to roads have killed off the service a bit too - new motorways across the Republic and also up through Co. Louth and the North IIRC have shaved a lot of minutes of road times between the two cities (similarly Galway and Cork-Dublin is suffering). Enterprise ideally needs three things;
- priority for the entirety of the route (not very likely);
- an hourly, clockface timetable (like Dublin-Cork);
- standardised calling points (though which is the five do you drop? Drogheda and Lisburn would be most logical I guess).

Unfortunately, removing intermediate calls to speed up the journey loses local custom, which is hard to come by as it is!

 

[big_dirt]

Does Lisburn get a stop? When I last used Enterprise, Newry and Portadown were the intermediate stops.

Drogheda has a right angle bend off the bridge so the train has to slow to a crawl anyway. Not sure if removing the stop at Drogheda will speed things up much.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yep. Lisburn wasn't included until around 2009 I believe, it started off as one a day or something, and is now served by roughly half of all trains (this occurred when Dndalk became a stop for all services, IIRC that was missed by a few).

Good point re: Drogheda, my first trip to Dublin involved using the only Enterprises non-stop a day through there and certainly southbound it felt as though you were braking for the station call! Plus, if the line out into Navan and Kingscourt ever gets reopened for passengers (not likely for some time) then making it quicker to access Dundalk and the North will make it a lot more attractive.

 

[4SRKT]

Wasn't Belfast Central so named because of its position on the old Maysfield freight depot on the Belfast Central Railway linking the BCDR and GNRI? Operationally it was central compared to Great Victoria Street and Queen's Quay. From a passenger POV, when it opened in 1976 it was even less central than it is now, with the Markets area a grim urban wasteland, the courthouses heavily fortified, and all the developments by the Lagan undreamed of. It wasn't much better than York Road TBH (although the walk was less terrifying), and in practice Botanic was the best station for most of the city centre.

Before GVS reopened the Dublin semi-fasts called at Botanic (and Lisburn and Lurgan), and the 15:00 Enterprise called at Botanic on Fridays only reflecting the huge student traffic. The post-1980 111 class enhanced schedule was

NIR Enterprise set (111 class + mk 2Bs)

08:00 Belfast > Dublin (non-stop), 11:00 return
15:00 Belfast > Dublin, 18:20 return (non-stop)

NIR semi-fast set (101 class + push-pull mk 2Cs until 1984, then 111 class + mk 2Bs)

07:00 Belfast > Portadown, 08:00 return
09:00 Belfast > Dublin, 13:00 return
17:00 Belfast > Dublin, 20:15 return (extended to and from Dun Laoghaire for a few years in the 90s)

CIE Enterprise set (071 class + mk 2Ds)

07:55 Dublin > Belfast, 11:00 return
15:00 Dublin > Belfast, 18:00 return (non-stop)

The non-stop workings were booked to cover the 113.5 miles in 1 hr 55 mins. The other Enterprises were booked for 2 hrs 15 with the same four stops as today. Given that these trains were longer (NIR sets; CIE set was usually just 6 cars including genny van), hauled by less powerful locos, operating on jointed, bull head rail on wooden sleepers with mostly semaphore signalling (and, in the case of the CIE set, vacuum braked), it's hard to see where all the money spent 'upgrading' the service in the 1990s has actually gone.

 

[Hove Heretic]

Looking at comments from users in the Belfast press, the unattractive journey times aren't the only problem. There's a LOT of criticism of scruffy stock on the service. With IR switching to MU operation, surely some of the redundant MkIII carriages should be refurbished to modern standards (as happening in the UK), and some suitable redundant locos overhauled for the service.

Or has this kit already been scrapped?

 

[citybus]

Does anyone know how many paths there are on the Belfast to Portadown line? Is is at capacity, could it cope with an hourly Enterprise service and an extra slow train to Portadown. Extra platforms at Great Victoria Street would be an easy thing to do but presumably there's no room for any passing loops inside Belfast now that Adelaide depot has reopened?

 

[4SRKT]

Does anyone know how many paths there are on the Belfast to Portadown line? Is is at capacity, could it cope with an hourly Enterprise service and an extra slow train to Portadown. Extra platforms at Great Victoria Street would be an easy thing to do but presumably there's no room for any passing loops inside Belfast now that Adelaide depot has reopened?

That's one of the advatages of running the Enterprise to/from Central. You are effectively creating extra capacity by allowing the Enterprise to overtake the locals while they divert around via GVS.