Would it be operationally sensible to do this considering how operationally unusual the Stratford- meridian water Greateranglia services are to extend some of the Overground services to meridian water and withdraw the current Greateranglia shuttle . all the necessary junctions and electrification are in place is there a reason why this couldn't and / or shouldn't be done.
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Extending London Overground Mildmay line services to Meridian water
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Class15
Established Member
This is something that I have often wondered about.
The track layout works at Stratford and there is no reason why this could not be done, however, a freight stopped at Signal L295 on Platform 10A at Stratford will foul the Central Junction and therefore the Hackney Wick - Meridian Water route.
It could be done tomorrow, but removes a useful freight regulating point.
It is not operational useful, it would be highly undeirable - in other words an operational nightmare.
Firstly, services from the Tottenham Hale direction towards Hackney Wick will conflict with anything using Platform 10A at Stratford. That platform is used 18 times in 90 minutes of the morning peak, and 7 times in the evening peak. So not only not practical, but not timetable-able.
Secondly, the current arrangements enable use of various parts of Stratford for freight regulation, esepcially around Platform 12 and the ‘Avoiding Line’ through Platform 10A.
Thirdly, with the Meridian Water line effectively being a single line siding, there is only a train every 30 minutes able to be routed on it. Any late running from the NLL will quickly screw up the single line section for following trains and csuse delay to escalate.
Firstly, services from the Tottenham Hale direction towards Hackney Wick will conflict with anything using Platform 10A at Stratford. That platform is used 18 times in 90 minutes of the morning peak, and 7 times in the evening peak. So not only not practical, but not timetable-able.
Secondly, the current arrangements enable use of various parts of Stratford for freight regulation, esepcially around Platform 12 and the ‘Avoiding Line’ through Platform 10A.
Thirdly, with the Meridian Water line effectively being a single line siding, there is only a train every 30 minutes able to be routed on it. Any late running from the NLL will quickly screw up the single line section for following trains and csuse delay to escalate.
Mgameing123
Member
How can we fix this issue. Let’s say TFL really badly wanted this service, what can we do?
You could just extend 1 or 2tph of nll service along it and route the rest into the bay plats at Stratford couldn't you
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Class15
Established Member
It doesn’t solve the problems that @Bald Rick has mentioned. While I don’t feel that the issues @Bald Rick has mentioned are project-ending issues, I’m unconvinced that the benefits outweigh the operational issues.
If you had the money:
Make Lea Bridge to Meridian Water 4-tracked to end the single line working between those two stations.
Segregate platforms 11/12 to NLL link from the tracks to platform 10A.
But is there the money? No. And if it was there, could it be better spent? Yes.
What is the perceived benefit of London Overground operating the Stratford to Meridian Water service? Just that it is a service entirely within London, or that there is a perceived need for a direct link across Stratford.
The current West Anglia timetabling, interworking with the Bishops Stortford service appears to work well.
The current West Anglia timetabling, interworking with the Bishops Stortford service appears to work well.
We have done this one before, and less than a year ago!
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Possibility of TfL taking over Stratford - Meridian Water local services as an extension of the Overground.
Currently, Meridian Water station only has a shuttle service to Stratford at regular times run by Greater Anglia, which doesn't seem very useful, and I don't think that Greater Anglia should operate such a local service. Should TfL take over the service and run it as an extension of the...
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They don’t!
Mgameing123
Member
Welcome to speculative discussion, where we are allowed to use our imagination.
Direct train to Hackney and other North London Line stations.
robspaceman
Member
I live in Lea Bridge. If I want to go to Dalston or Hackney I get the 56 or 55 buses, which take approx 20-30mins to dalston junction and Hackney Central, depending on traffic.
If there was a rail service instead, it would only be worthwhile if it could halve those journey times.
Since Lea Bridge (re)opened it’s been heartening to see just how popular it’s become. What is most frustrating however is that the weekend service is often suspended due to works, and the last train is 11pm-ish which is not late enough if you’ve had an evening in central london. If the meridian water service could become a more self contained affair then I guess it would allow those limitations to be improved.
If there was a rail service instead, it would only be worthwhile if it could halve those journey times.
Since Lea Bridge (re)opened it’s been heartening to see just how popular it’s become. What is most frustrating however is that the weekend service is often suspended due to works, and the last train is 11pm-ish which is not late enough if you’ve had an evening in central london. If the meridian water service could become a more self contained affair then I guess it would allow those limitations to be improved.
Make a new regulation point for freight, a place where signallers can hold a long train for a while without blocking the through route. Reinstate the four track from Camden towards Canonbury, make a siding in the Dagenham Dock area double ended? Stratford is the common junction for many different freight routes, so it’s hard to determine an answer for all.
Class15
Established Member
How on earth does that help?
I haven't looked, but is some freight coming (for a bit longer) from Thames Gateway? It may need to be hold somewhere before the Barking to Canonbury section, where Stratford might be the only option.
It would be a very long way around. If Hall Farm was done, Walthamstow and Chingford might be a more useful destination (also from Stratford itself) - and less of a dog-leg, but still some of the same issues at Stratford.
Although with both (Tottenham from Meridian, Walthamstow from Chingford), you have the issue of the Victoria line being so fast, you'd be far quicker jumping on it down to H&I, and continuing west, on potentially the train before yours.
Although with both (Tottenham from Meridian, Walthamstow from Chingford), you have the issue of the Victoria line being so fast, you'd be far quicker jumping on it down to H&I, and continuing west, on potentially the train before yours.
It's a nice idea (could even branch off to new platforms at Stratford International to make that a bit more viable), but, as others said, it's impractical, and CR2 will in future use the track between Tottenham Hale and Meridian Water once the four track system to Cheshunt is fully reinstated, so even more traffic.
Not to mention, outside of some events at THFC staduim and the Drumsheds, not sure if passenger demand is there for it right now. The Meridian Water regeneration project has slowed to a crawl since the pandemic (only half of the first phase is nearing completion), and the council is struggling with the housebuilding budget as it is.
I'd welcome an Overground link to Meridian or a takeover the shuttle as a stopgap, but would prefer a Victoria Line service from Northumberland Park personally (I know that's wishful thinking).
Not to mention, outside of some events at THFC staduim and the Drumsheds, not sure if passenger demand is there for it right now. The Meridian Water regeneration project has slowed to a crawl since the pandemic (only half of the first phase is nearing completion), and the council is struggling with the housebuilding budget as it is.
I'd welcome an Overground link to Meridian or a takeover the shuttle as a stopgap, but would prefer a Victoria Line service from Northumberland Park personally (I know that's wishful thinking).
gingerheid
Established Member
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I'd been wondering the opposite; if Meridian Water would be better served by a more frequent shuttle just to Tottenham!
Class15
Established Member
There are lots of long enough sidings at Dagenham Dock! The problem is just getting through Stratford. Maybe reversing at Upper Holloway Up Goods Loop and going via Harringay Park Jn is an option?
Well, yes, but imagination also needs to be based in reality.
At an ‘educated’ guess What it would take is:
Rebuilding of Straford platforms 1 and 2, extending them and linking them into the Temple Mills Lines. They are at different heights, so that means platforms 11 and 12 have to close permanently (a problem when Liverpool St is shut and West Anglia services terminate there, as was the case at Christmas). It also loses the regulation place for freight and ECS to/from Orient Way sidings, so that needs reproviding in the form of loops further north. There isn’t enough length between the HS1 bridge and Temple Mills East Junction, so they will need to be much further north, probably requiring land take and certainly needing track reconfiguration. There’s no where to fit them between Stratford and the entrance to Orient Way, so the regulation facility for the ECS will be lost permanently.
You will need to double some if not all of the single line between just north of Lea Bridge and Meridian Water, preferably at a station. It will need to be in a way that is future proof to Crossrail 2, and almost certainly need landtake.
You will also need to provide some sort of turnback facility where trains from the North London Line can be sent, between Stratford and Lea Bridge, such that a Merdian Water bound service is not stuck behind trains terminating in 1 or 2 at Stratford. Where that can fit I have no idea.
And you‘ll need more fleet.
Class15
Established Member
No it doesn’t. The tracks to Platforms 1 & 2 diverge at Channelsea Junction. You are not increasing any freight interference by extending via the east of Platforms 1 & 2.
Yes it does. Freight can (and does) sit and wait at L276 signal awaiting a path across Stratford Central Junctiom towards either Channelsea Junction or the Temple Mills lines to Bow. Similarly, freight can wait at L701 waiting for a path on towards Lea Bridge. ECS can wait at L274 before heading to Liverpool St, or L697 before heading to Orient Way, and not be in the way of anything else.
None of this would be possible in the imaginary future of linking platforms 1 and 2 to the Temple Mills lines which would be required to deliver the through servcies.
Well they don't so that's completely hypothetical. Yes this is speculative discussion, but not for complete non-starters!
Class15
Established Member
I don’t think any freight goes through Platforms 11 & 12 at Stratford I’m afraid, or at least a minuscule number do. All of it seems to use the High Meads Loop line.
Edit: one freight goes via Stratford P12, a Bow to Grain GBRf train. This service never seems to run anyway. Nothing pathed through 11.
Plenty does, maybe not in the working timetable, but at Stratford, for freight, that is merely a guide…
And don’t forget the ECS,of which there is lots every day.
Class15
Established Member
Can you give me an example please? I am not aware of any freight regularly through Stratford 11&12.
Fine ECS, but that’s not freight.
Not specifically, as there’s so many to mention, but in my time in Liverpool St IECC I saw lots.