Failed to pay train fine. Have recieved a huge fine from the magistrates court.

[asarogers12@gm]

Hi Guys,

In sept 2022 I was fined for travelling with an expired rail card, it had expired days earlier and I didn’t realise. the fine was 110 pounds, and I literally didn’t have 100 pounds in my bank account so I couldn’t pay. The inspector gave me a slip which said I could pay in 28 days. I was travelling from London to Glasgow, to go to university.

I’m a 19 year old uni student, and was taking the train up to uni in Glasgow when I got it. I told all my friends, and they were pretty much all of the opinion that I didn’t have to pay it. It was one of these bureaucratic things that never gets sorted out, especially because I got the fine in England, and I live in Scotland. Foolishly, I listened to them. I now realise that this was a terrible decision, and have learnt some valuable lessons, don't listen to legal advice to 19 year olds, and don't think that I won't be held responsible for my actions.

Today, 7 months later I got a letter in the mail from the magistrates court. I am being fined 577 pounds for failing to pay my fine. Is this right? Does the fine go up more than 5 times for not paying? It doesn’t really seem fair. Did I miss a warning letter?

If that is right, I can’t pay it, I know it’s my fault, and I made a mistake and I will certainly not do that again. But still, I don’t have £600, and I will not have 600 quid by May 12, when I am due to be taken to court if I don’t pay. What do I do? I am not trying to get out of paying, I just want to know is there a way I can appeal to reduce my fine? Or can I give myself some more time to pay? I am a student working a job just to pay rent on top of a full time degree, so I can’t just pick up some extra shifts etc. If I can extend my payment time to the summer i could get on my bike and work a couple weeks at deliveroo I reckon. Is there any way that i could settle out of court?

For extra information, I noticed my railcard had just expired as soon as I the conductor got into the carriage, and was trying to buy one when he came to check, he told me, unfortunately, that I still had to pay the fine. Other people on this forum are saying that this isn't the case.

TL/DR: didn't pay my rail fine, and am now being fined 500 quid, more than 5x the original fine, is this right? Is there anything i can do to give myself more time, or lower the fine?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum. Can you upload a copy of the letter you’ve received, with personal details redacted, as we really need to understand exactly what has happened to be able to give the best advice.

 

[WesternLancer]

For extra information, I noticed my railcard had just expired as soon as I the conductor got into the carriage, and was trying to buy one when he came to check, he told me, unfortunately, that I still had to pay the fine. Other people on this forum are saying that this isn't the case.

Where are people on this forum telling you this isn't the case?

The moment you step on a train you have to have a valid ticket. To not do so is a criminal offence under laws dating back to the 19th century that remain valid in England. A ticket bought with a Raicard discount requires a valid Railcard for the ticket to be valid when the ticket is used. The ticket is used when you step on the train. So sadly buying the Railcard after the journey starts means you have committed the offence.

It looks like based on duff advice from friends you then failed to engage with the Railway, so it looks like your case has been escalated to court when that could have been avoided had you engaged with them and this is the outcome.

As you are a student contact your Student Union advice service to see if they can help you, but the best outcome you can get may be that you can pay the court fine in installments

But yes, if you can upload anonymised copies ot the paperwork you have received (inc anything you had which you ignored if you still have it) people will advise you on the options that might now be available.

 

[gray1404]

It sounds like there is some hope for you here. From the reading of your post it sounds like you were issued with an unpaid first notice which you failed to pay. This is not actually a fine rather it is an invoice for the cost of the ticket.

Again from the reading of your post it then sounds like the next you heard of it was that you have a court conviction. If you are not aware that legal proceedings have been commenced against you by way of receiving a court summons and asked to end to a play then you can fill out what is called a statutory declaration. This has the effect of restarting and resetting the legal process.

You would then have the option of trying to engage with the railway company in the meantime to reach an out of course settlement and if the matter did still go to court, you could ask the court to take account of any mitigating circumstances and your income and hopefully the fine imposed by the court would be much lower.

 

[Mzzzs]

Because you did not know you should submit a statutory declaration to the court.

Appeal a magistrates’ court decision

How to challenge a decision by a magistrates' court. Including how to get a fine reviewed, if you did not know about your case, how to appeal to the Crown Court.

www.gov.uk

You should start engaging with the rail company and court.

 

[MrJeeves]

Because you did not know you should submit a statutory declaration to the court.

Appeal a magistrates’ court decision

How to challenge a decision by a magistrates' court. Including how to get a fine reviewed, if you did not know about your case, how to appeal to the Crown Court.

www.gov.uk

You should start engaging with the rail company and court.

And, it would be valuable to submit this through a solicitor rather than directly to the court.

We have seen cases in the past where people who have submitted statutory declarations directly to the courts have been immediately asked to plead guilty/not guilty and prosecuted accordingly on the spot (if guilty).

Doing it through a solicitor would mean a potential opportunity to discuss the case with the TOC's prosecutor before being tried again.

 

[reb0118]

There is a bit of confusion here. Have you been convicted at a magistrates court OR are you being threatened with being prosecuted at a magistrates court if you do not pay an administrative penalty to the railway company concerned?

My understanding is that you were issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice (basically an invoice for the standard fare due for your journey). You chose to ignore this. The next stage is usually the railway company writing to you informing you that they now have enough evidence to prosecute you at a magistrates court but are willing to forgo that in lieu of you paying an administrative penalty. NB they do not have to offer this opportunity but can rather go straight to court.

As has been asked above show us a copy of your paperwork, personal details redacted of course, and you will receive accurate advice.

As an aside: can a Scottish based solicitor deal with statutory declarations regarding English courts? I would assume that this would not be a unique situation so systems should be in place?...

 

[tspaul26]

As an aside: can a Scottish based solicitor deal with statutory declarations regarding English courts? I would assume that this would not be a unique situation so systems should be in place?...

Yes, a Scottish solicitor can deal with the attestation of the statutory declaration, but he may not submit it to the court on behalf of the accused (unless he is also qualified as an English solicitor).

 

[RPI]

Did you provide the railway with you correct name and address? Seems odd that there was no correspondence from the railway company before court. The Court will generally have access to information that the railway company won't in order to locate you though.

As others have said, a statutory declaration is the way to go if you genuinely did not receive correspondence regarding your court date etc.

Ensure though that to claim anything untrue when submitting a statutory declaration could lead you in a lot hotter water.

 

[reb0118]

Hi Guys,



Today, 7 months later I got a letter in the mail from the magistrates court. I am being fined 577 pounds for failing to pay my fine. Is this right? Does the fine go up more than 5 times for not paying? It doesn’t really seem fair. Did I miss a warning letter?

To explain. The fine has not "gone up". The previous figure of £110 was not a fine but rather an invoice for the fare due for your journey.

The figure of £577 is a combination of things. Namely: compensation to the railway of the fare due and potentially some of their legal costs; a fine (normally based on your income but as you did not respond it will be based on an average); and a victim surcharge (not paid to the actual victim in this case but e.g. towards victim support services).

So, by not engaging you have incurred a greater financial burden. However, unlike an administrative penalty, you can generally pay court fines off in instalments with, AFAIAA, no interest penalty.

If you were genuinely unaware of the court proceedings then, as stated above, a statutory declaration is the way to go. Even if you immediately plead guilty the fine should be reduced due to your low income and you will be eligible for the early guilty plea reduction. The compensation to the railway company would still stand.

That said, if your statutory declaration is accepted, you may have time to deal directly with the railway company and try to seek an out of court settlement aka an administrative penalty - however this would probably be for more than the £110 previously demanded due to the additional work you have caused.

 

[kkong]

Where are people on this forum telling you this isn't the case?

I suspect the OP means Reddit (r/UKPersonalFinance), because that is where they posted this issue originally.

 

[spag23]

I told all my friends, and they were pretty much all of the opinion that I didn’t have to pay it.

Not wishing to sound facetious, but maybe review your friendship circle? Or organise a whip-round amongst these amateur lawyers?
It brings to mind Oliver Hardy's catchphrase to Stan Laurel.

 

[jon0844]

I suspect the OP means Reddit (r/UKPersonalFinance), because that is where they posted this issue originally.

Very risky to listen to people saying things aren't enforceable. There are many myths about parking fines that aren't true in many cases these days, and people should not automatically ignore something issues on private land for example.

 

[Mzzzs]

I think it may be best that the op hires a solicitor to handle the case for them.
They will have the relevant expertise to try to convince the rail company to settle this matter out of court.

 

[island]

Today, 7 months later I got a letter in the mail from the magistrates court. I am being fined 577 pounds for failing to pay my fine. Is this right? Does the fine go up more than 5 times for not paying? It doesn’t really seem fair. Did I miss a warning letter?

As others mention, you were not given a "fine" but an unpaid fare notice, an invoice to pay for the ticket you should have bought before boarding. It looks like this was an off-peak single from London Terminals to Glasgow Cen/Qst, which would have been £112.60 at the time. The train manager actually did you a favour there as they would have been entitled to charge you £196.50 for an anytime single.

It appears you subsequently chose not to pay this sum based on some poor advice. That has led to you being prosecuted for fare evasion – difficult to say what exact offence, but nothing turns on that at the moment. As you didn't show up in court, you have now been found guilty and fined, and have a criminal record. Your letter may specify the breakdown of the amount you are asked to pay, but it would typically be something like £240 fine, £96 surcharge, £129 prosecution costs, and £112.60 compensation.

In short, yes, it is quite normal for an unpaid train fare to escalate in this way.

If that is right, I can’t pay it, I know it’s my fault, and I made a mistake and I will certainly not do that again. But still, I don’t have £600, and I will not have 600 quid by May 12, when I am due to be taken to court if I don’t pay. What do I do? I am not trying to get out of paying, I just want to know is there a way I can appeal to reduce my fine? Or can I give myself some more time to pay?

It's not immediately clear what you are aiming to do, but you do have some options.

1) Statutory declaration
If this notice is the first awareness you have that you were being taken to court, you can file a statutory declaration witnessed at a magistrates court or a solicitor, which is a solemn declaration of unawareness of the proceedings. If accepted, which they usually are, this essentially "rewinds the tape" back to the point of being charged with the offence, and you can plead guilty or not guilty. If pleading guilty, you may speak in mitigation at the court or send written mitigation through the post, asking for a lighter punishment such as a smaller fine or conditional discharge, or send evidence that you have no income which may result in a reduced fine.

You may have some time before the court case to negotiate with Avanti for an out of court settlement. This would likely cost several hundred pounds.

If you wish to start the statutory declaration procedure, you must not delay. You have 21 days from when you became aware of the case to lodge the form, and this can only be extended in exceptional circumstances.

Important note: if you have received letters about being taken to court but chose to ignore them, the statutory declaration option is not available to you and attempting to use it would be perjury/contempt of court, and would be liable to get you into even more trouble – these, unlike the original fare evasion, are imprisonable.

2) Mitigation
You could write to the court that convicted you and ask that they remit (lower) the fine on the grounds that you have no/low income or other grounds. This would be under section 85 of the Magistrates Court Act. The court will have discretion to do so but will want to see evidence of your income (or lack thereof).

3) Pay the total over a period of time
You could write to the court and ask that they make a collection order for payment of the fine in instalments. Usually they will allow this and you can ask for up to a year or two to pay.

You can do this in combination with 2).

4) Engage a solicitor
A solicitor would likely cost more than the £577 you've been ordered to pay so far but if you want to hire one then you can. They'll likely do one or more of 1) to 3).

5) Stick your head back in the sand
As you can see this hasn't worked well thus far, but if you chose to ignore the notice, eventually the court officers would track you down and recover the funds by seizing and selling your belongings, seizing funds held in a bank account in your name, or deduction from benefits or wages you receive. You could alternatively or additionally be arrested.

I am a student working a job just to pay rent on top of a full time degree, so I can’t just pick up some extra shifts etc. If I can extend my payment time to the summer i could get on my bike and work a couple weeks at deliveroo I reckon. Is there any way that i could settle out of court?

The time for settling out of court has almost certainly passed as the matter has been to court, save for as mentioned above.

For extra information, I noticed my railcard had just expired as soon as I the conductor got into the carriage, and was trying to buy one when he came to check, he told me, unfortunately, that I still had to pay the fine. Other people on this forum are saying that this isn't the case.

I'm assuming this isn't a reference to "this forum" as in railForums but to some other forum. If someone on RailForums has given that advice, I suggest reporting it to the moderators so they can delete the incorrect advice.

It would be extremely helpful if you could put up copies of the letter(s) you received about the matter. Please cover any personal identifiable information.

 

[asarogers12@gm]

Thanks to all who have responded, I have attatched a photo of the letter I got.

Upon second glance I have realised that the address is slightly wrong, two numbers are swtiched around, but the post code, street name, name etc. are all right, this might explain why I got no other correspondence, but this one got to me, as the address it was actually adressed to is across the road. I am certain I didn't give a false adress (I would be too scared of getting caught, and It would be odd to lie by giving an almost perfectly correct address) so mabye the inspector typed it in wrong?

I unfortunately don't have the original UFN - Very stupid I know. Also i should note that the train was actually from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, and I had to get the train across to glasgow from edinburgh that day, so not an avanti west coast train but LNER.

I am certain I never got any other letters related to this. Should I get a soliciter? At this point I am less concerned about the money than the potential criminal record/impact on loans and mortgages etc. Obviously I can't really afford a soliciter, but I suppose my family might be able to? Should I go to citizens advice? I am pretty freaked out at this point.

Thanks so much guys

 

[island]

Thanks to all who have responded, I have attatched a photo of the letter I got.

Upon second glance I have realised that the address is slightly wrong, two numbers are swtiched around, but the post code, street name, name etc. are all right, this might explain why I got no other correspondence, but this one got to me, as the address it was actually adressed to is across the road. I am certain I didn't give a false adress (I would be too scared of getting caught, and It would be odd to lie by giving an almost perfectly correct address) so mabye the inspector typed it in right?

It's possible, although I would observe that opposite sides of the same street would not ordinarily have the same postcode. I don't think anything turns on this.

I am certain I never got any other letters related to this. Should I get a soliciter, at this point I am less concerned about the money than the potential criminal record/impact on loans and mortgages etc. Obviously I can't really afford a soliciter, but I suppose my family might be able to? Should I go to citizens advice? I am pretty freaked out at this point.

I refer you to the five options I set out in post 14, which I confirm remain relevant. If you have any further specific queries about one or more of those options, or need more details instructions on how to take up the options, please say so.

The offence you were convicted of is non-recordable and will not ordinarily appear on a basic or standard DBS check. It also will have no effect on loans or mortgages, but may need to be disclosed on renewal of any car or home insurance you may have.

 

[asarogers12@gm]

It's possible, although I would observe that opposite sides of the same street would not ordinarily have the same postcode. I don't think anything turns on this.

I refer you to the five options I set out in post 14, which I confirm remain relevant. If you have any further specific queries about one or more of those options, or need more details instructions on how to take up the options, please say so.

The offence you were convicted of is non-recordable and will not ordinarily appear on a basic or standard DBS check. It also will have no effect on loans or mortgages, but may need to be disclosed on renewal of any car or home insurance you may have.

Ultimately, I can afford to pay the fine, My maintennce loan has just come in, and I will sell my bike, work extra shifts and cut back etc. Making the statuary declaration seems smart, I really didn't know about the court case, but I don't know if I would want to do anything legal without contacting a soliciter, and as you say, a soliciter will cost more money than they would save me (after all I would still have to pay the UFN and then some.).

If you think that simply paying the fine and accepting the guilt won't negatively impact my future, I am happy to do it.

Do you think that is a good idea?

I don't mean to put you in the position of making an important decision for a random stranger on the internet, btw, I am just looking for advice. Thank you so much for showing concern for my situation.

 

[Starmill]

Ultimately, I can afford to pay the fine, My maintennce loan has just come in, and I will sell my bike, work extra shifts and cut back etc.

The option to pay the money the court has ordered in instalments is generally intended to relieve you of the need to do things such as selling your bike. This is hopefully some consolation to you but it's also possible it's smart from the point of view of the victim / prosecutor because for example you might use the bike to get to and from work, so having to sell it could negatively affect your ability to pay.

Obviously, if you had the funds to your name to spare the court would expect you to be paying the full amount promptly.

 

[Gloster]

It's possible, although I would observe that opposite sides of the same street would not ordinarily have the same postcode. I don't think anything turns on this.

Yes, they can. The whole of my road (30+ houses) has a single postcode. At my previous house the whole of the bottom of the lengthy road (40+ houses out of over 100) had a single postcode.

I would just reiterate what has been said above: the OP should take great care not to write or say anything incorrect or misleading. They have a chance of getting themselves part of the way out of the hole they have dug themselves into, but any such action would probably put paid to that.

Please note: I am not one of the experts.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, they can. The whole of my road (30+ houses) has a single postcode. At my previous house the whole of the bottom of the lengthy road (40+ houses out of over 100) had a single postcode.

I would just reiterate what has been said above: the OP should take great care not to write or say anything incorrect or misleading. They have a chance of getting themselves part of the way out of the hole they have dug themselves into, but any such action would probably put paid to that.

Please note: I am not one of the experts.

To be fair there are all kinds of oddities with postcodes, certainly enough to fill a dedicated thread.

 

[asarogers12@gm]

The option to pay the money the court has ordered in instalments is generally intended to relieve you of the need to do things such as selling your bike. This is hopefully some consolation to you but it's also possible it's smart from the point of view of the victim / prosecutor because for example you might use the bike to get to and from work, so having to sell it could negatively affect your ability to pay.

Obviously, if you had the funds to your name to spare the court would expect you to be paying the full amount promptly.

Yes I realise I have the option to pay in installments, but as far as I can tell, I have to pay a ccj within one month or this will affect my credit score. I really do not want to affect my credit score, or have a criminal record. So I am willing to do anything to prevent that. That is why I am saying I would like to pay now if that will help.

I am assuming taking legal action won't actually save me any money, because I would want to use a soliciter, and afterall, I am guilty of fare evasion anyway so I don't see how it would help really.

Yes, they can. The whole of my road (30+ houses) has a single postcode. At my previous house the whole of the bottom of the lengthy road (40+ houses out of over 100) had a single postcode.

I would just reiterate what has been said above: the OP should take great care not to write or say anything incorrect or misleading. They have a chance of getting themselves part of the way out of the hole they have dug themselves into, but any such action would probably put paid to that.

Please note: I am not one of the experts.

I just checked and the flat that the letter was addressed to has a different postcode to the one on the letter. Not that this changes anything.

 

[island]

Yes I realise I have the option to pay in installments, but as far as I can tell, I have to pay a ccj within one month or this will affect my credit score.

You have not received a CCJ so this isn’t relevant.

I really do not want to affect my credit score, or have a criminal record.

You have a criminal conviction and paying the amount won’t change that.

So I am willing to do anything to prevent that. That is why I am saying I would like to pay now if that will help.

Please see option 1) in my post 14 for details of the only option that is capable of nullifying your criminal conviction.

If you think that simply paying the fine and accepting the guilt won't negatively impact my future, I am happy to do it.

Do you think that is a good idea?

If you have the money and are willing to potentially declare your criminal conviction for a year (after which it will be spent), or longer if you choose in the future to take up work in a “high trust” industry such as accounting, law, or working with children, then paying the sum due is the fastest way of putting an end to the matter.

 

[asarogers12@gm]

Please see option 1) in my post 14 for details of the only option that is capable of nullifying your criminal conviction.

Do you think it would be possible to make a statuatory declaration without the help of a soliciter? And how would it help if by going to court I would be found guilty anyway, by settling out of court?

 

[Haywain]

Making the statuary declaration seems smart, I really didn't know about the court case, but I don't know if I would want to do anything legal without contacting a soliciter, and as you say, a soliciter will cost more money than they would save me

This should be done through a solicitor but it is a process which has a fairly low cost as it is a form filling exercise. It shouldn't cost more than about £5, and will probably save you more than that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you think it would be possible to make a statuatory declaration without the help of a soliciter? And how would it help if by going to court I would be found guilty anyway, by settling out of court?

If you make a SD at the court, it is probable that they will accept it, set the conviction aside, and you will simply be asked to plead immediately, and be reconvicted of the offence. A solicitor may help with a number of things as @island has laid out.

 

[reb0118]

Do you think it would be possible to make a statuatory declaration without the help of a solicitor?

Yes, but you would have to make a personal appearance at the court concerned to do so.

You can, however, make the declaration in front of a Notary Public (the majority of solicitors in Scotland are also Notaries Public) or Commissioner of Oaths (one of the roles of a Justice of the Peace - JP). There is a fixed fee for this which is £5.00. Neither of these will be able to present this on your behalf - unless they are also registered as a solicitor in England.

Signing documents

And how would it help if by going to court I would be found guilty anyway, by settling out of court?

When you are fined in your absence the court applies an arbitrary amount based on an average weekly wage. If you are on a low income below this average then your fine would have been less if you had informed them of this by declaring your earnings.

Also there is generally a discount for pleading guilty before the necessity of an actual trial.

A statuatory declaration resets the clock so you would benefit from these two reductions if applicable. That is why a statuatory declaration is worthwhile even if you are intending to plead guilty.

 

[asarogers12@gm]

A statuatory declaration resets the clock so you would benefit from these two reductions if applicable

But wouldn't all of this involve me having to properly hire a soliciter? Which might end up costing a lot of money, and I would still end up with a criminal record, right?

 

[reb0118]

But wouldn't all of this involve me having to properly hire a soliciter? Which might end up costing a lot of money, and I would still end up with a criminal record, right?

Not necessarily. You would need to get the statutory declaration made in front of a person authorised to do so (usually a solicitor) but there is a fixed fee of £5.00 to do so. You are not engaging a solicitor to advise on your case but merely to witness your declaration.

If you then intend to plead guilty you don't actually need a solicitor - you can represent yourself. You may not even have to attend court.

With regards to your conviction: generally byelaw offences, of which you have been convicted, are non recordable. Therefore to all intents and purposes you do not have a criminal record. For the avoidance of doubt there will be a record of it but you generally don't have to declare that fact - in essence your conviction is spent upon sentencing.

Also, using the statutory declaration to set aside the conviction may offer an opportunity to engage with LNER to obtain an out of court solution - you would be able to try up to any rearranged court date.

 

[Haywain]

But wouldn't all of this involve me having to properly hire a soliciter? Which might end up costing a lot of money, and I would still end up with a criminal record, right?

No. And once the SD has been submitted you can contact LNER and ask if they will settle the matter.