Falsely advertised ticket sold by Trainline?

[fali]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and am hoping an expert from here may be able to help provide some advice / guidance regarding an issue that I am having with my recently purchased season ticket.

The season ticket in reference was for a journey from Slough to Purley, which consists of the following journeys as suggested by the trainline app:

• Train - Slough to Windsor & Eton Central - approx. 6 min train journey
• Walk - Windsor & Eton Central to Windsor & Eton Riverside - 20 min walk
• Train - Windsor & Eton Riverside to Clapham Junction - approx. 44 min train journey
• Train - Clapham Junction to Purley - approx. 18 min train journey

I have had no issues in getting on the train from Slough to Windsor & Eton Central, however, once I had completed the second leg of my journey, which is walking from Windsor & Eton Central to Windsor & Eton Riverside, my ticket unfortunately did not let me through the barriers at Windsor & Eton Riverside station. When I spoke to the station staff today, they highlighted that my ticket was not valid for me to travel on this leg of the journey (Windsor & Eton Riverside to Clapham Junction). Now this is where the confusion occurs, as I purchased this ticket from the trainline app as per their own suggested route. The station staff highlighted that 'this whole route / season ticket is not valid'.

I am obviously very confused as I am not sure where things have gone wrong. I did everything in my control to make sure I purchased the correct ticket according to trainline, which consisted of wanting to 'Avoid London Underground Zone 1-4' and then proceeding with the suggested ticket they offered to me (highlighted route above).

I've included some screenshots of my search and the ticket suggestions that the trainline app offers, which is the route I purchased a season ticket for.

I would obviously like to take this up with trainline, but I wanted to check if there was a chance I've gone wrong somewhere along the line?

Any help / guidance will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't a permitted route on a point to point ticket, unfortunately, though it appears you can use an outboundary Travelcard from Slough to R1256 (or presumably contactless? Do SWR accept it at Windsor?) to do it, at least according to the National Rail Enquiries site. What exactly were you sold?

Normally I'd say it is contractually valid anyway, but you don't buy season tickets against itineraries in the way you describe (I just looked at the Trainline app myself). It will sell you point to point tickets on that itinerary but only as a split and it clearly states this.

 

[Benjwri]

though it appears you can use an outboundary Travelcard from Slough to R1256 (or presumably contactless?

Is there a rule that would allow this? I see no rule that allows this, and it isn’t mapped. Windsor is outside the zones and contactless isn’t valid.

What exactly were you sold?

From the search query it’s almost definitely a Slough to London Zones 5-6 season ticket.

Frankly this shows the ridiculousness that Trainline are allowed to sell seasons with no route validation. No TOC site will offer it, as they check it and find there is no valid route it can be used on.

The OP is going to have to get in contact with Trainline and ask them for their money back as they have effectively been sold a useless ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As an opening gambit, I would suggest the OP may require a Windsor & Eton Central to Zones 2-6 Travelcard with additional validity at Windsor & Eton Riverside.

That's £105.70 for a Weekly, £405.90 for a Monthly, and £4228 for an Annual.

There may be a cheaper alternative by splitting, of course.

 

[Benjwri]

As an opening gambit, I would suggest the OP may require a Windsor & Eton Central to Zones 2-6 Travelcard with additional validity at Windsor & Eton Riverside.

That's £105.70 for a Weekly, £405.90 for a Monthly, and £4228 for an Annual.

There may be a cheaper alternative by splitting, of course.

Windsor and Eton Riverside to London Zones 3-6 would be cheaper, £98.10 for a Weekly. Valid as Riverside is a member of both the Slough and Staines routeing groups (Even though central is only Slough, causing this issue), and Slough passes the fare check.

As it’s just about possible to get to Purley without going into Zone 2 via Slough, this would be valid from Windsor and Eton Riverside to Slough via Windsor and Eton Central.

 

[Hadders]

There's no point to point season ticket between Slough and Purley.

Can @fali let us know exactly what ticket they have been sold by Trainline and how luch they paid for it, as this will enable us to work out if travelling via Windsor & Eton Riverside is a permitted ruote.

 

[fali]

There's no point to point season ticket between Slough and Purley.

Can @fali let us know exactly what ticket they have been sold by Trainline and how luch they paid for it, as this will enable us to work out if travelling via Windsor & Eton Riverside is a permitted ruote.

Thank you all for your responses, I’ve included a snippet of the ticket here

Just to add more detail, I’ve previously purchased a season ticket from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Zone 5-6 and travelled via the Clapham junction route with no issues. I’m confused why the same route for an extended version of the same journey is now not valid.

 

[Haywain]

Thank you all for your responses, I’ve included a snippet of the ticket here

Just to add more detail, I’ve previously purchased a season ticket from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Zone 5-6 and travelled via the Clapham junction route with no issues. I’m confused why the same route for an extended version of the same journey is now not valid.

Aside from the Windsor issues, that ticket has no validity at Clapham Junction, which is in zone 2, along with several other stations you pass through in zones 3 and 4.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a rule that would allow this? I see no rule that allows this, and it isn’t mapped. Windsor is outside the zones and contactless isn’t valid.

I don't know what rule is being applied, but if you put in Slough to Purley via Windsor and Eton Riverside on NRE you get that route and a 1-6 Outboundary Day Travelcard at £17.80. The 5-6 one is clearly not valid. I suspect it's on the basis that planners implement Travelcards as being valid on any permitted route to any point on the boundary of the Zones, or something similar.

Trainline really should change how it sells these seasons so it doesn't show Travelcards unless you specifically ask for one.

 

[Benjwri]

Trainline really should change how it sells these seasons so it doesn't show Travelcards unless you specifically ask for one.

It does need to do that, as for example with Purley a point to point season isn't available, but it does need to validate that there is a route for the travelcard it offers. Every other seller I can find does this, for example GWR will only show a travelcard ending at Zone 1-6, not the others as by its logic they aren't valid.

 

[4COR]

It only looks like Purley/Purley Oaks and the Caterham/Tattenham Corner branches are affected on Trainline in this way - trying alternative destinations in the Southern Region in zone 6 like Surbiton, Cheam, etc always returns the 1-6 Travelcard as the (only) Season Ticket option (whereas those could return the Z2-6 Travelcard seasons! NB: There are permitted routes from along the GWML to Purley etc via Redhill Group, but that doesn't include Slough (Slough to Redhill Group is only mapped via London, whereas Maidenhead to Redhill Group has the alternative via Reading and the North Downs Line)).

Of note, the journey planner is entirely consistent with the query given - "Slough to Purley avoiding Underground Zones 1-4" reasonably returns the route via Clapham Junction there is no travel on the Underground on that route. As noted above, it doesn't mean you can get away without a zonal ticket for the zones you pass through though - I would say the OP has been fortunate not to have had a ticket check en route previously.


Regardless of the zonal issue around getting to Purley by train, why wouldn't a Slough - Z5-6 Travelcard be valid at the Windsor stations for the journey into the zones? If the OP was travelling to say Feltham (in zone 6), that route is valid according to NRE - it offers the Anytime and a Day Travelcard with the 10min fixed link at Windsor. You could indeed proceed by bus after Feltham to anywhere in London, but it would take a heck of a long time to get to Purley that way.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Reardless of the zonal issue around getting to Purley by train, why wouldn't a Slough - Z5-6 Travelcard be valid at the Windsor stations for the journey into the zones?

The Routeing Guide instructions relating to the validity of out-boundary Travelcards are that you have to use a permitted route to London Terminals to enter the zonal area, regardless of the zonal combination held.

For Slough, that restricts you to the direct route into Paddington, entering the zonal area at West Drayton.

The two Windsor stations have both Slough and Staines as possible routeing points, so you'd need to undertake a fares check to determine which was appropriate.

Using NFM64 fares:

A Windsor & Eton Central - London Terminals Standard Day Single (SDS) was £6.00
A Windsor & Eton Riverside - London Terminals SDS was also £6.00

To determine which Routeing Point(s) is/are appropriate we need to compare the price from each to the destination with the through fare.

A Slough - London Terminals SDS was £5.30
A Staines - London Terminals SDS was £4.90

As such, both Slough and Staines are valid Routeing Points for both Windsor stations, but good luck trying to use a ticket from one at the other!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Routeing Guide instructions relating to the validity of out-boundary Travelcards are that you have to use a permitted route to London Terminals to enter the zonal area, regardless of the zonal combination held.

That isn't how the accredited journey planners implement it, though, so it's largely irrelevant because an itinerary from NRE (or one sold with the ticket from any accredited planner) is considered definitive. Similarly Milton Keynes Central to Euston isn't valid via Bedford (there is an Also Available At Bedford season if you did want that) but the Travelcards are routed Watford Junction to avoid them being used to travel via Bedford as they undercut the fare from there.

I believe the planners look at Permitted Routes for a point to point ticket from the origin to the destination entered rather than looking at other pairs, then give an outboundary Travelcard in the results if the destination is inside zones 1-6.

 

[randyrippley]

How on earth is a non-specialist supposed to know all this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How on earth is a non-specialist supposed to know all this?

The reason an accredited itinerary is considered definitive is exactly that. The Routeing Guide is an internal document - it is available to the public but it isn't intended that the public consult it. The interface on "what's a permitted route" for the end user of the railway is a journey planner.

The problem here is Trainline selling Travelcard seasons without a sample itinerary. (A point to point would be fine sold like that because there is always at least one Permitted Route, the shortest, whereas there can, such as this, be a case where a Travelcard season has no validity for the intended use).

 

[4COR]

I believe the planners look at Permitted Routes for a point to point ticket from the origin to the destination entered rather than looking at other pairs, then give an outboundary Travelcard in the results if the destination is inside zones 1-6.

That's also the way I understood it was implemented in planners as well. What I wouldn't do would say that my destination is somewhere that you're not on a permitted route to though if using that argument. The NRE season ticket calculator (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-and-offers/ticket-types/season-ticket-calculator/) appears to use something like the same logic (ie Slough to Feltham, it indicates a Z5-6; Slough to Purley it indicates a Z1-6, even though a Z2-6 would work for that latter via Ealing Broadway/Clapham Junction)).

That calculator does also come with the caveat that "Retailers may offer options on their website which are not included in the calculator." - which is possibly helpful if being offered the valid Z2-6 season, but not so if Trainline then offer an invalid Z5-6...

 

[JB_B]

The Routeing Guide instructions relating to the validity of out-boundary Travelcards are that you have to use a permitted route to London Terminals to enter the zonal area, regardless of the zonal combination held.

...

Could you remind me where that's stated?

 

[Snow1964]

Strictly you don't even need zone 2 either, but that requires a route with lots of changes

Slough, Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green, Richmond, Wimbledon (via Kingston), Streatham etc

But realistically would need zone 2

 

[CyrusWuff]

Could you remind me where that's stated?

On the last page of Section A (How to use the National Routeing Guide), nestled between "London Group Stations" and "Disputed Routeings."

Link to the PDF: http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf

 

[JB_B]

On the last page of Section A (How to use the National Routeing Guide), nestled between "London Group Stations" and "Disputed Routeings."

Link to the PDF: http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf

Of course - thanks for that. That was added in Nov 2019. IIRC in a FOI response about this change the DfT claimed (implausibly) that the additional text doesn't restrict permitted routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course - thanks for that. That was added in Nov 2019. IIRC in a FOI response about this change the DfT claimed (implausibly) that the additional text doesn't restrict permitted routes.

It in effect doesn't, because itineraries from NRE are definitive, and NRE doesn't implement that rule (and does offer a 1-6 outboundary day Travelcard for Slough to Purley via Windsor and Clapham Jn).

If they changed the planners then it would, and some TOCs have added route restrictions to their Travelcards to prevent wider use (e.g. WMT have done so from some but oddly not all south WCML stations).

 

[Benjwri]

but that requires a route with lots of changes

Slough, Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green, Richmond, Wimbledon (via Kingston), Streatham etc

But realistically would need zone 2

Although if you're willing to go via Windsor, using a Windsor ticket and hoping staff recognise the validity at the other to allow you through from Slough, it's slightly more feasible. Windsor to Putney, Putney to Wimbledon (District Line), Wimbledon to East Croydon (Tram) and East Croydon to Purley.